This are the WOT (90-100 kpa) rpm/total SA that come up.

1000/23
1200/23.3
1400/24.3
1600/25
2000/26.2
2200/26.5
2400/28.3
2800/29.8
3200/30.2
3600/31.3
4000/32.5
4400/33.5
5200/34.6
5600/35

Make sure you have enough fuel for at least 360hp.

Yes a dishes piston has more surface area but the only part of the piston with actual quench affect is the highest point of the piston so in other words the only place u are getting ur full .040 quench is the outer "ring" with a flat top the whole half of the piston on the quench side is .040 from the quench pad with a dishes piston u only have a very small area that is .040 from the quench pad and the rest of the piston is say .100" from the quench pad ... Idk if that makes any sense or not .... And yes the pistons were .025 down from factory with a .015 shim head gasket so .040 .... And yes I checked all pistons with dial indicator to verify .012 down after getting it back from machine shop and bottom end assembled then I picked a head gasket after I knew how far down they were ..... But like I said a flat top piston is gonna have ALOT more Quench effect than a factory dish piston and that's not even considering the 45 degree chamfer that goes all the way around the outside perimeter of the piston which is one of the worst designs for a performance engine and also makes the ring lands weaker because the rings are closer to the "bang" and u don't have all that extra "meat" on top of the rings ... Also with the hypereutic pistons I am running like .002" piston to wall clearance ! U can't do that with cast or forged because try expand so much more and have to run like double or triple the piston to wall clearance than with hypers ... Those numbers are off the top of my head I could get my build sheets back out n tell u exactly every clearance in the whole engine if u would like ... And I have blueprint sheets on file if anyone would like me
To email them to u so u could print them off to blueprint your build when u decide to do so

informative post there, thanks. seems you got your work done quite thoroughly on that build, i hope it pays high dividends when it's all done!
the thing about quench area does make sense indeed!
i wasn't sure the 015 shim HG was used in those builds, that's an interesting detail to me.. 040 quench from factory is a nice feature. if i remember correctly, e.g. the (89?)90-up L98s had flat-tops pistons, right? for 305s, probably the CFI/HO shortblock got some for the early years, not sure about laters then.
still they all had this chamfer on the edge as you point out. i can see what you said about ring land strength, but why is it a bad design for a performance engine, and why did GM even design them in that way?
btw how about quench area with domed pistons then? quench distance is normally established between the "top level" of the piston, like at the edge of a dished or domed piston, right, without accounting for the dome? so not sure how that would change quench area.

yeah i guess you can only run tight piston-to-wall clearance like that with the hypereutectics due to their thermal dimensional stability.. build sheet would be nice to take a look at, maybe i PM you my email

Not that this is in any way relevant to this tread at this point, but here is a pic of O.E. piston from a 1991 5.7 Pontiac GTA.

Quench. The quench area is supposed to squish the air/fuel mixture towards/in the combustion chamber and it will go wherever it can escape to.

well, relevant to the thread, we're kinda discussing on the build so i think we're fine
thanks for the pic - so the later style flat tops didn't have that chamfer at the ring land either.. interesting.

Ownor , Responding to ur pm yes I will post my completed build sheets here for everyone to see when I get a chance I just went back to work and am working 7-13's on night shift with an hour n half commute 1 way ... But I just printed off the sheets I emailed u and filled them in with pen .. Would taken me forever to fill it in on the computer but I may still do that so I have the build sheet , base tune , Ebl files , blank build sheets , etc. on a USB incase anything ever happens to my laptop ....

On another note I really haven't had time to do any tuning either but that LT1 SA table seemed to help a lot .. And VE learns in the normal driving areas are getting pretty darn close within 5% ... Now I just need to work on the upper VE , AE , PE Then tweak SA a little and I believe it will be pretty close soon ... Mabey I can get "tuned performance " to take a look at some datalog a and get some tips :-0 .... And I believe it will also b getting a 100 shot wet kit soon with a 2gal fuel cell in engine bay full of 110 for the uh oh button ! Prolly start out with a 50 shot n work up to a 75 then 100 and stop there ..... Mabey :-o .... Don't wanna push it too far with them hyper pistons ...

It was Fast355 that suggested it to me in the first place, probably saved me from wasting another year to figure out what SA works well with these type aluminum heads.

A mild built 305/350 should easy make 1hp for 1 ci, your 310ci is not mild and I am certain it is capable of a little over 1hp for 1 ci, without power adders.

I would set fuel pressure to handle around 370 fwhp (27psi).
Engine simulator tells us 269 fwhp @3500 rpm and 310 fwhp @ 4000 rpm.
(310-269)/5=8.2 hp for each 100 rpm from 3500 rpm to 4000 rpm.
To fill in the 90 and 100 kpa cells @ 3600 rpm requires fuel for 277 fwhp.
Assume the number 100 of the VE cell to be all the fuel your injectors can deliver (196 #/hr), according to the excel file.
Play with the psi numbers of the excel file to find how much fuel it takes to fuel 277 fwhp, in this case (15.1 psi) 146.6 #/hr.
I make it this simple 100/196*146.6=74.8 and put the number 74.8 in the 90/100 kpa cell @3600 rpm.
I basically used this procedure for all rpm ranges of the WOT VE tables. So far it worked out good.

Thanks a lot for all the help man ! .. Got a ? For ya though .. U think I should put a set of 1 5/8 long tubes on it ? Over the 1.5" shorties ? I've Benin playing with header tuning calculators n they all say the 1.5" primaries are pretty close to perfect just need to have longer primary lengths around 30-32" ... With a 2.6" collector which I have 2.5" ... Also I'm seriously thinking about going with the 1 5/8 longtubes but running a true dual necked down to 2" all the way back to the axle then just stopping there with a 45* angle at the end .. So straight pipes all the way ! With a "narrow" x pipe somewhere along the lines and just run both pipes down the passenger side of the car ... And if it's way too loud just add some straight thru glass packs or sumn ... It's already flippin loud so what's it really matter lol I think the 2" duals would tuck up nicely and have a bad *** tone but idk ...

imho that's a bit theoretical approach. it assumes that all the data you enter in the excel spreadsheet is spot on (e.g. injector flow), and it also means that you'd have 100% correct modifiers such as injector offset compensation along with other variables. furthermore, the spreadsheet is calculated for a 85% DC, so you can still get more fuel out in most cases.
i haven't tried it, no offense, but this is just what i would think of it.

It is a free world, you are free and welcome to share your opinion and your theories too

Not sure I'm not a big exhaust back pressure specialist, stepping up to 1 5/8 primaries sounds good, all it takes is cash and some wrenching. Long-tubes, straight pipes with X are popular for high performance builds, though I never really looked in to it, since I use my car on public streets. Not sure about the glass packs, I saw a chart once and they were listed as not good for flow.
From what many members here have reported, decent headers and direct fit 3 in. all the way from the y pipe, can go a long way.

Yea right now I'm running summit shorties 1.5-2.5" into a flowmaster Y transition but ints not mandrel bent and the exhaust shop did a shitty job on the Y pipe so it's not flowing what a 2.5" pipe should ... Then it's 3" all the way back with some more shitty stuff goin on up over the axle ... Into a cross flow flowmaster .... But I do have a 3" cutout before the axle ... Another thing is the driver side part of the y pipe is like 4 times longer than the passenger side before it gets to the y transition ... Soooo ... My dad has a bad *** welder and a lift in his shop so just thinking of options and would prolly just buy some pipe and various pre bent mandrel bends ... NO shop around here has a mandrel bender FML ....

And I always thought a glass pack would flow close to an open pipe of same diameter but idk ... I'm really just wanting it tucked up better for ground clearance issues ... And don't really wanna fork out 1k $ + for a cat back

I have a BMR train crossmember and I moved the torque arm up 2 holes last night ... I think it's about right now .. I got one more hole I can move it up if I want but it hooks a lot better now and feels a lot better under hard braking ! Needed to do that for awhile now jus never did .... It always just felt like the driveshaft was in a bind or sumn ? Idk but it feels much better now

hehe sure, which is what i did as said, no offense thanks for sharing.

for exhaust, i like to recommend the hooker aerochamber/super-competition catback or whatever the current name for that is. it sells for something in the 350$ range i would imagine. i also like the hooker 2055 shorties which go into a pretty nice 3" y-pipe that comes with them, but they are not that cheap (~700). but i think that's the best setup for shorty headers, if i'm not mistaken.

Hey guys I posted another very short data log on the tuning with Ebl thread if anyone can take a look at it n give some advice that would b awesome ! .... Additionally it seems that if I just kinda roll into the throttle it runs OK ! But if I stab it it just bogs then goes ... It also seems that it is running best as of now between 3k 4500rpm ... I really wanna get this tuned nailed so I can use that other 1500rpm on the big end ... Pulled up next to a brand new 5.0 doin about 50-60mph on highway today n I knew it was comin so I dropped to fourth n we both kicked it about same time n I was pullin away from him I shifted at a little over 4500 into 5th n he jus came chugging along bout to pass me so I let off... If I woulda run it up to 6k then shifted to fifth he wouldn't a had a snowballs chance in hell ....

I have a 1988 firebird 305 tbi. I want to do the s/r torquer heads and the edlebrock tbi intake. What cam do you think I should get for this and how would I tune it? I'd like some pretty good power and a nice lope but it is my daily driver.

If ur gonna build a 305 get the trick flow heads man it's not that much more $ and well worth it ... ... If u do the math from flow numbers they are capable of 500hp or damn close to it out of the box .. And they will work on a 350 with low compression pistons

Ok thanks man. Any idea on the cam and intake? Its a tbi too so will I have to tune for all that

Go with a carb dual plane intake of your choice ... I went with a cheap summit brand .. But thinkin about getting a edelbrock eps or rpm and selling this one .... ...on the tuning EBL Flash is only way to go .... With a WB o2 and heated narrowband .... Cam it just depends if it's gonna b ur DD ur gonna want something with good mileage correct ? ... I would read this entire thread of mine if I were u and c what all is involved .. It's no easy task ... The best thing to do is if u don't have another car is build a motor on the stand then when it's done just swap em out ... So ur car ain't down for so long ... This cam I got May wrk good for u with regular 1.5 ratio rockers ... And the 114 LSA makes for easier tuning but it don't have that real aggressive lope like ur talkin about ...

When it comes to tuning how complicated is it?

Just depends on the person ... Getting it running and drive able is cake .. Getting it to perform at it's best and get good mpg is another story .. If ur not a patient person then u might as well use someone like tuned performance to do it for u .... The best way to learn is to buy the EBL flash and WB o2 sensor now and learn to tune on a stock engine then do more tuning for every modification u do .... Like say it's all stock now .. Get the tune perfect then add headers and
A good 3" exhaust system then tune it again then add a good cold air intake and Bigger TB then tune ,,, .. Then add the cam n heads n intake n tune again ...

Ok that sounds like a good idea. What do I need and where can I get it?

DynamicEFI.com ... Ebl flash & TT-1 WB

I'll need a laptop too right?

Yup

as pointed out you need additional equipment for tuning.. depending on the type of wb controller and additional sensor equipment like fuel pressure or the like, there goes another grand.
i agree that with tuning you have to be very patient and also you get quite deep into the matter. some knowledge about control systems and engine dynamics is helpful too. not saying it can't be done, but be prepared to spend a lot of time or as mentioned you can go to one of the tuning shops for that to save time and effort.

for the intake Nate you will see a limitation in intake capability when checking on the max MAP during a WOT run.. when your MAP is several kPa under BARO at higher rpms and load, that's in indication of a limiting intake manifold. so might wanna wait until you get your tune dialed in and run it up the whole rpm range before reconsidering your intake manifold choice. unless you want a different shape powerband or something.
also with an intake change most likely you would have to spend some more time on dialing it in again on AE and other transitional fueling..

Well u c the problem is is at the beginning of this build I was gonna use the factory heads so I ported the intake and the heads to match a felpro 1205 intake gasket .. Then when I got the trick flows now the intake ports are way bigger than the heads ports

Could I change it to a carb and make that easier?

Why would you move backwards and install a carb?

The whole tuning thing just has me really confused

Yes a laptop with disc drive so
Laptop 300$
Ebl. 400
WB. 250
that's just basics then also has to do with tuning is fuel control and if u still have the stock fuel pump that's the first thing that's gotta go I went with a TPI pump n idk if that's even enough for my combo now ??!?!?
Fuel pressure regulator and fuel lines 250$
Fuel p gauge $200+
Bigger injectors 200
Also rebemer if u go to a carb u gotta do some rewiring and put in a old HEI dizzy too .. which if u want it to run right the HEI will need alot of "mechanical" tuning as well like changing weights springs or even an adjustable vacuum advance etc. but it would be a lot cheaper and easier to tune to go carb IMO but it won't get the MPG or run as well as a properly tuned EFI setup of any kind

true words there. if you consider the whole suite needed for tuning, it does come at a price! then you still have to get it all wired up and stuff like this. also you spend massive amount of time to get the tune right imho (plus some fuel.. that might not be a big deal for you guys in the states tho ). not saying it's not worth it, but it's quite a task depending on the engine and how much of a perfectionist you are, and if you feel like getting captured by the engineering around and behind it.
i won't agree with the fuel p gauge price tho, you can just use the mech fp gauge set for the GM TBI by actron which is around 50$ iirc, i believe Nate was talking about an electric pressure transducer that you can monitor inside EBL, but that's not mandatory.
btw the TPI pump i think is limited to somewhere around 400 horses if i'm not mistaken.

Yes I was talking about the transducer ... it is connected to my ebl and a pillar gauge .. so I can datalog and keep an eye on it while driving ... which I guess I need to up the FP again cause its at 25psi wot needs to b 27-28

Great build! Hope you get tuning right. How did you fab up that CAI?

CAI was not hard at all but was a little expensive , but IAT temps indicate it works quite well .... I got everything from summit ...

Carb hat 4" inlet - 100$
5' 3" tubing - 30$
4"-3" coupler. 30$
1 3" 90. 25$
Air filter 3". 40$

I made a thread on the whole CAI setup and exactly how to do it a while back if u can find it ... I think the thread title was custom cai

What would y'all think about going with a small single plane type intake ? Like the we I and stealth I think it is ? Looks like a dual plane with no air gap but is actually a single plane ? lso my tuning is getting much closer ! And is actually running fairly strong .. but there is still ALOT left in the tune IMO .. it starts breaking I'll a little past 5k and it should b pulling strong to 5800-6k

91' firebird .. 305 TBI .030 over , balanced bottom end , speed pro hyper flattops , 10.6:1 CR , all ARP rod bolts and main studs , melling HV oil pump , trick flow super 23 175cc heads, Howards HR 214/218@.050 .488/.495 lift on 114 LSA , full roller 1.6 RR = .520/.528 lift , summit dual plane intake port matched , shorty headers into 2.5" Y w full 3" flow master system and 3" cutout in front of axle , msd billet dizzy, 620cfm TBI , custom CAI , tubular adjustabke LCA pan hard , umi torque arm wonder bar , BMR trans cross member , COMP engineering SFC's, disc rear w 4.10's, drilled an slotted rotors, EBL flash , VRFPR, WBO2,

Did u fill in the WOT SA with these numbers? https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/post...0-post201.html and the VE with this procedure? https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/post...0-post207.html

Ill check the sa when I get off work ... and I really haven't had time to mess with it a whole lot .. I'll check it out tonight tho .. I got a short driving clip up on my YouTube page BTW everyone

91' firebird .. 305 TBI .030 over , balanced bottom end , speed pro hyper flattops , 10.6:1 CR , all ARP rod bolts and main studs , melling HV oil pump , trick flow super 23 175cc heads, Howards HR 214/218@.050 .488/.495 lift on 114 LSA , full roller 1.6 RR = .520/.528 lift , summit dual plane intake port matched , shorty headers into 2.5" Y w full 3" flow master system and 3" cutout in front of axle , msd billet dizzy, 620cfm TBI , custom CAI , tubular adjustabke LCA pan hard , umi torque arm wonder bar , BMR trans cross member , COMP engineering SFC's, disc rear w 4.10's, drilled an slotted rotors, EBL flash , VRFPR, WBO2,

Driving video ! Tune still needs some work also note the speedo is about 20 mph fast and I was shifting way early .. when I get this tune nailed down I'll b shifting at 6k !

91' firebird .. 305 TBI .030 over , balanced bottom end , speed pro hyper flattops , 10.6:1 CR , all ARP rod bolts and main studs , melling HV oil pump , trick flow super 23 175cc heads, Howards HR 214/218@.050 .488/.495 lift on 114 LSA , full roller 1.6 RR = .520/.528 lift , summit dual plane intake port matched , shorty headers into 2.5" Y w full 3" flow master system and 3" cutout in front of axle , msd billet dizzy, 620cfm TBI , custom CAI , tubular adjustabke LCA pan hard , umi torque arm wonder bar , BMR trans cross member , COMP engineering SFC's, disc rear w 4.10's, drilled an slotted rotors, EBL flash , VRFPR, WBO2,

Well ... I tried to do my first pull to 6k the other day and it started cutting out around 5k ... I have a brand new mad billet dizzy on the shelf but right now the entire ignition system is bone stock except the plug wires this is prolly the problem right ? Plugs are at .035 I believe

91' firebird .. 305 TBI .030 over , balanced bottom end , speed pro hyper flattops , 10.6:1 CR , all ARP rod bolts and main studs , melling HV oil pump , trick flow super 23 175cc heads, Howards HR 214/218@.050 .488/.495 lift on 114 LSA , full roller 1.6 RR = .520/.528 lift , summit dual plane intake port matched , shorty headers into 2.5" Y w full 3" flow master system and 3" cutout in front of axle , msd billet dizzy, 620cfm TBI , custom CAI , tubular adjustabke LCA pan hard , umi torque arm wonder bar , BMR trans cross member , COMP engineering SFC's, disc rear w 4.10's, drilled an slotted rotors, EBL flash , VRFPR, WBO2,

4500 rpm starts to get scary in 5th :-o. I need some hood pins for sure ... and some work on the front steering/suspension before running it up to 6k in 5th lol with my gear and tire size 6k should b 165mph in 5th eeeek

91' firebird .. 305 TBI .030 over , balanced bottom end , speed pro hyper flattops , 10.6:1 CR , all ARP rod bolts and main studs , melling HV oil pump , trick flow super 23 175cc heads, Howards HR 214/218@.050 .488/.495 lift on 114 LSA , full roller 1.6 RR = .520/.528 lift , summit dual plane intake port matched , shorty headers into 2.5" Y w full 3" flow master system and 3" cutout in front of axle , msd billet dizzy, 620cfm TBI , custom CAI , tubular adjustabke LCA pan hard , umi torque arm wonder bar , BMR trans cross member , COMP engineering SFC's, disc rear w 4.10's, drilled an slotted rotors, EBL flash , VRFPR, WBO2,

Be sure to raise the rev-limiter in the calibration.

RBob.

I believe I did but I'll double check

91' firebird .. 305 TBI .030 over , balanced bottom end , speed pro hyper flattops , 10.6:1 CR , all ARP rod bolts and main studs , melling HV oil pump , trick flow super 23 175cc heads, Howards HR 214/218@.050 .488/.495 lift on 114 LSA , full roller 1.6 RR = .520/.528 lift , summit dual plane intake port matched , shorty headers into 2.5" Y w full 3" flow master system and 3" cutout in front of axle , msd billet dizzy, 620cfm TBI , custom CAI , tubular adjustabke LCA pan hard , umi torque arm wonder bar , BMR trans cross member , COMP engineering SFC's, disc rear w 4.10's, drilled an slotted rotors, EBL flash , VRFPR, WBO2,

Dude, i wish i had your accent!!! Also, what exhaust you running? Sounds ****ing killer!!!

Lol... its just some cheap summit shorties into a flow master y transition 2.5-3" 3" all the way over axle into a crappy flow master single in dual out with 3" inlet and 2 2.5" out with 18" long 3" stainless tips .... I really wanna redo ALL of it with all mandrel bends and long tubes but ain't got the dough

91' firebird .. 305 TBI .030 over , balanced bottom end , speed pro hyper flattops , 10.6:1 CR , all ARP rod bolts and main studs , melling HV oil pump , trick flow super 23 175cc heads, Howards HR 214/218@.050 .488/.495 lift on 114 LSA , full roller 1.6 RR = .520/.528 lift , summit dual plane intake port matched , shorty headers into 2.5" Y w full 3" flow master system and 3" cutout in front of axle , msd billet dizzy, 620cfm TBI , custom CAI , tubular adjustabke LCA pan hard , umi torque arm wonder bar , BMR trans cross member , COMP engineering SFC's, disc rear w 4.10's, drilled an slotted rotors, EBL flash , VRFPR, WBO2,

This just watched the video and damn! Sounds good. Hopefully my swap will sound something close to that. Did we ever figure out what the power is?

Haven't got any numbers yet . And it prolly will never b dynoed .. but the track will open in 2-3 weeks so we will have some track times soon .. and the tine ain't quite right just yet but still working on it ...

But anyway ... this thing starts pulling F'n HARD! at around 4800! Like seriously it feels like u just sprayed it soon as it gets up there ... but then it just falls on its face at like 5500 like u let off the pedal ... so I gotta figure this out .. idk if its the ignition system not keeping up or tuning issue or just a fuel issue ... but I think this thing is gonna pill like a damn freight train from 4800 all way to 6000 easy soon as I get this figured out ... and another thing is .. is if/when I start shifting at 6k ... when I grab the next gear , its gonna put it right back in that sweet spot in every gear ... 6k bam 4800 ... then 5th will drop down to about 44-4500 I think ...

Another thing is .. I need sum damn hood pins ... at 4500 in 5th my hood looks like its gonna dissapear ... so I did some calculating and 6k in 5th should b 165 right now and more like 175+ with a little taller tire which is the next thing on my list to get a little a the gear out of it ... so mabey I can actually use 1st gear lol

91' firebird .. 305 TBI .030 over , balanced bottom end , speed pro hyper flattops , 10.6:1 CR , all ARP rod bolts and main studs , melling HV oil pump , trick flow super 23 175cc heads, Howards HR 214/218@.050 .488/.495 lift on 114 LSA , full roller 1.6 RR = .520/.528 lift , summit dual plane intake port matched , shorty headers into 2.5" Y w full 3" flow master system and 3" cutout in front of axle , msd billet dizzy, 620cfm TBI , custom CAI , tubular adjustabke LCA pan hard , umi torque arm wonder bar , BMR trans cross member , COMP engineering SFC's, disc rear w 4.10's, drilled an slotted rotors, EBL flash , VRFPR, WBO2,

nice, i'm glad to see this elaborated 305 build going so well for you. also sounds good with the gear spread and power band match i hope you can figure out the 5.5krpm up issue.
do you have a log (+bin) of one of these pulls? can prolly put it in a zip file and upload here.
also, are you sure you don't run into valve float there?

btw watched the clip a few days back, loved it! car sounding and pulling great, and then that awesome 'bama accent heyull yeah

I'll check my logs and c if I caught it ... and yes I'm pretty sure its not vskve float as the valve springs that came with the TFS heads (1.46" dia. duals) are way way beefier than the ones the cam actually calls for (1.26" dia. singles) and are supposed to b good for .600 lift .... I'm really leaning toward the ignition system ...all stock right now could the stock ICM keep up At 6k ? Also has stock coil .. I had a msd coil but it took a **** after a year also had an accel ICM that also took a crap ... I may try to knock the plug gap down to like .028 instead a .035 ?

91' firebird .. 305 TBI .030 over , balanced bottom end , speed pro hyper flattops , 10.6:1 CR , all ARP rod bolts and main studs , melling HV oil pump , trick flow super 23 175cc heads, Howards HR 214/218@.050 .488/.495 lift on 114 LSA , full roller 1.6 RR = .520/.528 lift , summit dual plane intake port matched , shorty headers into 2.5" Y w full 3" flow master system and 3" cutout in front of axle , msd billet dizzy, 620cfm TBI , custom CAI , tubular adjustabke LCA pan hard , umi torque arm wonder bar , BMR trans cross member , COMP engineering SFC's, disc rear w 4.10's, drilled an slotted rotors, EBL flash , VRFPR, WBO2,

I just noticed this thread, led here by a link you posted in another thread. Good reading, nice pics and vids too. Congrats on your build.

Nothing wrong with a 305. But as someone noted earlier in this thread, many(but not all) 305 build threads seem to fade into oblivion, making you wonder how they turned-out, or if they were ever completed. So it's nice to see one completed successfully.

Those are nice cylinder heads, and they can support a much larger cam, even similar to Comp Cams original suggestion, yes, even in a 305. It just depends what your goal is and the supporting parts you're using. And it looks like you put together a good combination of parts.

Nice job. Thanks for sharing.