bigarmzz

just was on scoggin dickeys web site..

http://www.sdpc2000.com/catalog/120/...ate-Engine.htm

..$1500 for 290hp dont seem all that bad...i'm going to run a carb with it and an edelbrock performer intake..

..although i did see that there wasnt a warranty at all with it.......

tryin to find me a good engine, bang for buck....

whats everyones opinion on this one?

ya think 290 is a realistic number with this motor?

thanks

-bigarmzz-

-ZERO-

doesn't sound bad. but no warrenty?!

ME Leigh

Its a crap 350, everything would have to be replaced if you wanted any kind of performance.

bigarmzz

290 hp is quite abit of performance for the street isnt it??...hell, didnt most 350 irocs only have like 215hp???

they didnt run that bad at all.....

.........man, tryin to find a decent performance engine for a decent price is really becoming a pain in the *ss.......

-bigarmzz-

-ZERO-

what would be a good 350 crate motor to get with out having to spend an arm and a leg?

bigarmzz

thats what "i'm" tryin to find out as well....

there's got to be one out there


-bigarmzz-

ME Leigh

Those hp ratings are measured in completly different ways. The 290 hp is gross hp with little addition of power from a correction factor. It will make less power on a real gross hp dyno. The 215hp is measured as SAE net, which has all the components as intalled on the car running. Stock exhaust, intake, induction, powersteering, A/C, smog pump....

That 290 hp is really 150hp.

-ZERO-

I guess were gonna have to give up an arm or a leg for what we want then bigarmzz. o well, its only money! we cant take it with us when we die ya know.

ME Leigh

Just find a 350 short block, they are cheap. Then you can add performance parts, that you would have to replace anyway this that junker.

TA

iTrader: (1)

Me Leigh is right. The HP ratings for the IROC's etc are SAE net Horsepower, as are all cars. That means HP at the flywheel, but will all accessories (Air Cond, Power steering, alternator, smog pump, Full exhaust with cat converter, etc etc.)

The figure given on the Scoggin-Dickey motor is Gross flywheel HP, with zero accessories, probably with dyno headers and a bare carb, no air filter. You can bet your bonnet that the real world output of the engine in the car would be about 100 hp less, if you have a really good induction and exhaust system.

...however, it is a 4 bolt main block, new GM (they ought to know how to build a small block after 50 years...), and has powdered metal rods. With a more aggressive cam and some good heads, it should make some decent power and remain reliable as a street motor. It is not going to be a race motor, but you could do a lot worse for the money.

Troy
So Cal

LG4TA

I see the camshaft is different in this 290 hp version. The old 350 crate motor had only 250 hp with the .390 .410 camshaft but this new one has a .450 .460 lift. Doing the 30% drop in horsepower going from the engine dyno to a rear wheel hp dyno would still make around 200 hp at the rear wheels.

The crate motor they sold for years would only have made about 170 hp or so at the rear wheels. Just a little better than my LG4 305.

AJ_92RS

It doesn't sound like too bad of a deal. I'd call and ask more about it though. Find out more specifics on the cam, if the pistons are flat top or dished, what casting number the heads are, etc.

From what it sounds like, the only difference is the cam.

For money and warranty reasons I'd get this one, spend ~$50 at Summit and get a new cam. :shrug:

http://www.sdpc2000.com/catalog/130/...ate-Engine.htm

ME Leigh

It already says it has 8.5:1 compression, crap.

bigarmzz

ughhh.....man this is frustrating trying to find a good deal on a decent short block........


hasnt anyone here bought a short block from somewhere that was good???

surely not everyone is building there own are they???



-bigarmzz-

ljnowell

You can get the ZZ4 for 1500, which is a pretty good deal.

ME Leigh

http://www.wheelermotorsports.net/en...55/prices.html

www.midwestmotorsportsinc.com

There are lots you can find "clamier" shortblocks for $1000. Just search the internet. Also you can look in race magazine, circle track....

DuronClocker

iTrader: (1)

If you can get a ZZ4 for $1500, do it. I thought the ZZ4 was up around $3400 though?

Blackroc86

Where do you get a ZZ4 shortblock for that price? I can only find them for 1995.00 and up.

AJ_92RS

Ensuring you can run 87 octane in 100*+ weather with gas prices as high as they are and only loose ~ 10-15 HP over 9.5 compression is a bad thing?

Wow. I need to get my priorities straight and spend more money on gasoline. I have too much anyway.

:shrug:

ljnowell

An approximation, actually. Larrys Performance out of modesto has them for 1600 + change.

ljnowell

Having such low compression that you cant install any better of a cam is a good thing? Perhaps having horrid 882 or 993 heads on there that flow less than my lawnmower is a good thing? That is nothing more than a smog motor. The only way it will make 290 hp is on an engine dyno with dyno headers and no accessories. My guess is real world 215, at the wheels even less. Before you can do any serious modding to that engine, you would need to replace the heads, and that isnt going to be cheap. There are a lot better choices to start with. And as for compression costing so much more in gas, why do you say this?

AJ_92RS

You obviously (again) didn't r|e|a|d my post.

Nevermind.

bigarmzz

uh....where the heck are ya finding the zz4 for $1500????

oh, and anyone have any experience with either wheeler motorsports, or midwest motorsports....


sorry about being such a pain in the *** about this, but i'm just trying to do my homework before i go out and buy just any short block...

i appreciate everyone's input

-bigarmzz-

bigarmzz

i was just at larry's performance's web site.....the short blocks he advertises on his website arent the ZZ4's....there just plain old stock rebuilds for $1k and up

if he sells the ZZ4 short block for $1600, he dont advertise it on it website....(which you'd think he would...he should sell the guts out of them for that price!)


-bigarmzz-

bigarmzz

yeah, but, if you get this engine for $1,300 plus the $160 to ship it here, take off the "useless" heads and cam.....i'd have a $1,500 short block, that really wouldnt have a "warranty", b/c i just changed the heads and cam....i'm sure that'd void any kind of gm warranty...

-bigarmzz-

Ray87Z

The Goodwrench 350 is not that bad a setup actually. For $1400ish you get a decent new production 4-bolt shortblock. Sell off the stock heads for around $150-$200 and put on some better heads like Vortecs along with a decent cam. It only has 8.5:1 compression, but that's with the stock 76cc heads, swap on some 64cc heads and you'll jump up into a decent ratio.

Maybe you'd come out ahead with a rebuilt shortblock if you can find one with better stuff in it for $1000, with the oil pan, timing chain, oil pump etc but I'm not so sure. Most budget shortblocks aren't going to have any better pistons or such either and the cheap ones don't come with the nickel and dime crap like the pan, timing chain/cover, oil pump, etc...

My father purchased a 265hp version of the Goodwrench from goAutocenter.com (had a mild 204/214 cam, slight upgrade over the stock Goodwrench peanut) that he had planned to use in something else. That fell through so I snatched it up. Sold the stock heads, threw on some Vortecs, threw in a XE262 cam, Perf RPM intake, etc. It runs pretty strong for a budget setup.

You can come in under the price of the 330hp 350HO doing it like that, and basically have the same setup only with a better cam for a little more power...

ljnowell

More than likely that would cause an issue with the warranty.

F-BIRD'88

This is not a "performance motor"

Thi is a presmog (1973 era design) low compression dished piston low perf motor.
The .450"-.460" camshaft is the old "L-82
cam" originally designed for and 11:1 compression motor. It's a dog in a low compression motor like this one. (326Ft/lbs torque) {It's a mismatch}
Don't expect better than mid to high 14sec et's with this motor in your car.
More like low 15's.

Find a performace based 350 with flat top
pistons and "high performance heads"
like the 350HO crate motor with vortec heads. Or build your own.

You should be able to buy a basic remanufactured 350shortblock with (9.5-10:1) flat top pistons and a performance hyd cam for $1200 and add hi-perf heads etc and get 375-400hp and 400ft/lbs torque for about $2000+/- $US.
Thats a good deal

8Mike9

Lj, you sure there's a Larry's Perforamce in Modesto? I did a quick search and only found larrysperformance.com in Montabello (So.Cal)...not trying to pick nits or anything, but I live about 15 miles from Modesto...the reason why I ask.

Ray87Z

Something like the 330hp 350HO or ZZ4 doesn't have a warranty to start with anyway I don't believe... I don't think any of the GM Performance Parts crates do anymore...

The Goodwrench's shortblock and the 350HO's shortblock are virtually identically setup, with the HO being a 1 piece rms accepting a roller cam as the main difference. It also has dished cast pistons (9.1:1 comp), the nodular crank and PM rods...

You can sell off the heads and maybe the rockers on the Goodwrench, throw on Vortecs and a decent cam and be ahead of the 350HO other than not having a roller cam for cheaper, especially with the 350HO pushing on up toward $2300+ nowadays...

Not that you still couldn't come out ahead with a rebuilt shortblock if you can find a decent price...

bigarmzz

i thought it was the same larry..... ...maybe i guess it aint?


does your larry you know sell the ZZ4 short block for $1600???

if so, man,....give me his number!!!! thats one hell of a deal!

-bigarmzz-

bigarmzz

what kind of hp range do ya think a man could be in with:

the gm goodwrench basic shortblock
vortec heads
XE268 cam (hopefully i can use the stock springs)
performer intake
edelbrock 600 carb
headers
dual flowmasters

?????

that would probably be around 9:1 wouldnt it?

-bigarmzz-

contactpatch

Does anyone know the camshaft 'duration' spec for
engine being discussed?

ljnowell

Thats it! It is montebello, My fault. When I was looking for a shortblock in January they were selling them for like 1629, or 1639, something like that. I almost bought one, but I scored a deal of a rebuilder. YOu can order it from summit for like 1900. Kinda expensive, but you are getting a new block and forged parts. Not a bad deal really.

ljnowell

That doesnt sound too bad. I have seen a lot of guys get the shortblock from GM and put sportsman II's and a similar cam. They usually do pretty well. Kudos on the carb selection, I love the edelbrocks.

ME Leigh

Your right on the edge of major troubles running that cam with Vortecs. You sure don't want to use them anyway, they are not even strong enough for a stock cam. Measure your clearances before you do anything.

Ray87Z

Hmm, hard to say with the regular Performer, as that would be giving up some power to the Perf RPM. Multiple mag buildups have been very similar to this, they've all been up near 370-375 hp, but I'd say you'd be leaving 10-15hp on the table with the Performer...

As a matter of fact Chevy Hi-Perf mag did a Goodwrench buildup back in 99 that consisted of exactly this. With a RPM intake they made 371 hp with the stock Vortecs and XE268 on the Goodwrench...

I've known a few people here that ran the 268 on the stock springs for awhile, but it's the absolute limit. Could have a clearance issue but even if you don't the springs are on the weak side I'm sure they'd begin to cost you some power as the mileage increases and they start to give up the ghost... I went with the XE262 to give the clearance issue some leeway, I've been suspect of the springs even still though and wish I had swapped them out while it was easy... I would at least swap on some $50 "Z28" springs or something...

Compression is hard to say, as I've seen multiple compression ratings listed for the Goodwrench to start with (mine said it was 8.5:1, I've seen 8.1:1 listed too, not sure what's correct...). Using a couple compression calculators it seems like the 64cc heads and standard thickness head gaskets should bump the compression nearly a full point from what the Goodwrench was rated at with 76cc heads. So you should have at least 9.1:1... I believe the 350HO uses the same size dish pistons as the Goodwrench, seeing as it's also rated at 9.1:1 compression that seems like a safe bet...

bigarmzz

yeah, i love edelbrock carbs....i've literally just taken them out of the box and put them on, and wallllah........i actually had one i run right out of the box without any adjusting for over 5k miles


-bigarmzz-

ljnowell

They are good at plug and play, mainly because of good jetting from the factory. However, with tuning, an edelbrock is capable of some big numbers, just like holley. I posted in another thread about my brothers neighbors car. 70 chevelle, 350 chevy putting out 528hp at the crank. Dynoed using the edelbrock carb that is on it now. Thats just one, I have seen many 500+HP engines with the edelbrock.

F-BIRD'88

The actual compression ratio on that 290-HP goodwrench 350will be 7.8:1 with the 76cc heads. I recall a magazine article where they actually removed the heads and measured the piston deck height and calculated the as delivered cr. The pistons were .055" in the hole.
Again , this is not a "performance motor" the pistons are weak and not recomended for a performance application.

Build or find a remanufatured flat top pistoned shortblock
and then install 64cc performance heads.
If you want to run a XE268 comp cam buy a set of "Upgraded Vortec heads or the new GMPP "Bowtie" Vortecs. They already come with proper machining and springs good for .530" lift. The price is only slightly more than the OEM production Vortecs assembled.
It's a better head all the way around.

The part # for the new assembled Bowtie small port vortecs is 25534421

This is a true hi perforfmance vortec head. Its ready to rock out of the box.
http://www.sdpc2000.com/catalog/3129...inder-Head.htm

F-BIRD'88

The only GM sb flat tappet hyd cam with .450" intake lift and .460" exhaust lift is the old corvette "L46"350-350hp--"L-82" cam (350-245HP)
specs are 224/224@.050" 114LSA installed factory retarded 1 deg on 115intake C/L
it was origionally designed for the 1969 L-46 11:1 compression corvette motor.
Was later used in 1973-4 L-82/Z28 motors (245netHP)
has also been used in Mercruiser 350 marine motors.
It stinks. Even a common Generic Summit/ speedpro cam will make more power and torque.
The old 327-350hp "151" cam is better.

bigarmzz

holy cow! am i reading that price on the link right??? $500 a head for these????

geesh

-bigarmzz-

F-BIRD'88

thats right....ya get what ya pay for.

the stock assembled L-31 heads are not ready to install as you receive them.

They need spring seat, valve guide boss
and rocker stud and guideplate machining
The spriings are only good for .420" .450" lift
A Comp extreme energy cam requires a much better valve spring than the stock vortec spring.

The new Bowtie vortec heads have all the required hi perf upgrades already:
screwin studs and guide plates and real hi perf springs, lightweight "LT-4" 2.00" -1..55" valves.
the ports are better than the OEM vortecs and the casting is thicker.
This head is ready to install.
They will make more power too.
Add up what it will cost to prepare OEM vortecs and compare

If these heads were available when I was buying vortec heads I would have bought them for my 406.

I eyeballed these new bowtie heads at
the GMPP trailer at the drags recently.
They are the real deal.

Ray87Z

That's kinda overkill for what we're talking about, I mean the guy was in the market for a very mild 290hp motor, obviously doesn't need absolute top of the line. The upgraded Vortecs (clearanced for more lift, better springs, still pressed in studs) from Scoggin Dickey are around $600 for the pair and will work just fine for what most need.

For the XE268 you could even get by with the stock Vortecs with just a set of better stock size springs for pretty cheap and be alright without the clearancing and such. Just make sure the valve seals are seated fully as they apparently often aren't (use a appropriately sized deep well socket and tap em down w/ a hammer to make sure they're fully seated). Couldn't hurt to check final clearance of course, but I haven't heard of anyone that encountered a actual problem with the 268 without clearancing...

I don't see why someone who isn't in some racing division that requires iron heads would want to spend $1000 for those Bowtie Vortecs unless they're pretty heavily ported. You could get the aluminum Fastburns or any number of aftermarket heads for that price range... What do they flow?

Tobias05

I went w/ the 350 HO and couldn't be happier, still need to get a handle on the tuning though, but each time we tweak it, the motor gets stronger.

bigarmzz

now that looks sweeeeeeeeet


-bigarmzz-

hoogabooga

iTrader: (1)

i have the goodwrench 350 in my 85 and was thinking about upgrades heads cam etc. on the scoggin website the upgraded vortec head kit is $950. roller cam, lifters and other misc parts another 300. so how much would i actually gain for $1200? no comp. on my car, msd, holley 600cfm,headers, bowtie level 2 2400 stall.

4BoltMain

Hmmm I had a similar problem. Here's what I did.
I went to a few local junkyards and looked for mid 80's full size trucks pr irocs, and then asked them what they wanted for the motor. I ended up with a 350 2 bolt main block from a 1990 chevy 2500 pickup, complete from tbi to oil pan, and I got it for $150. I brought it to a local machine shop and the guy did the whole motor for me for about 800.... here's what he did

Hot tank and magnaflux block and
Brass freeze plugs $100

replace cam bearings- $30

bore cylinders .030 @20 a cylinder- $160

recondition and balance stock rods-$100

forged pistons- $200

polish crank-$30

replaced all main and rod bearings with clevite bearings

arp fasteners throughout

balance rotating assembly- $200

and he assembled the whole thing for like $200

I'm using a set of nicely ported 1.94's

So i'm guessing a 10:1 cr

That's yoru best bet

These companies that offer these engines with those prices, it's all the cheapest parts and they are thrown together haphazardly.

go this route you'll be better off in the long run bro

Tobias05

thanks man

maroguy1

Damn 150 for a complete motor there is no way to find a deal like that around here!!! I had a good block and I built my own tpi motor for my 85 but it ended up being more expensive than just buying the 330hp crate motor. The crate motor would of been alot less work and power would probably be the same. Buy a crate motor you will be alot happier. Just my opinion!!