you have it ALL wrong

compare a 305 and 350 to a hot chick and ugly chick?

unless you send her out for a day for a make over, and is even more hot then the hot chick

because a 305 CAN out perform a 350

 

You need to get your facts straight...those engines and similar engines were designed to make less smog so they could be allowed in Ca. (ie. small bore long stroke) then they woke up and started to produce effcient clean burning engines that made power too. The 350 was around long before they made that piece of crap but the controls were not good enough to make them burn clean.

 

I have my facts straight. You need to get your facts straight.

The 305 was built for all the reasons I stated, a BIG one being CAFE and also the smog. A 350 isn't that much dirtier, but it is some, especially in HCs. The 305 wasn't allowed in California Immediately after its introduction. For example, take my 1983 LE9 305, NOT available in California. In that case it would have been the LF3 305 or the LS9 350.

The LE9 made 180 FWHP @ 4,400 and 250 ft/lbs @ 2,000 vs. the LS9s 165 FWHP @ 3,800 and 270 @ 2,400 ft/lbs. The LF3 made 155 FWHP @ 4,400 and 245 ft/lbs @ 1,600.

The smaller bore also tends to give more detonation resistance than the comparable 350. I run 9.8:1 with a .040" quench and iron heads with 93 octane with no detonation and full timing.

Take a look, the 80s HO 305 made more power than a comparable 70s 350. The vortec 305 made 235 FWHP vs the 350s 245 FWHP. Torque was 300 ft/lbs in the 305 and 330 in the 350. Same cam, same heads (smaller chamber and smaller intake valve only), same intake, same exhaust, etc.

Horsepower per cubic inch as well as thermal efficiency is better in the 305, FACT.

If the 305 had been made in the late 60s instead of the late 70s the output would have roughly been.

Base=260 FWHP and 330 ft/lbs (based off the 300 HP 350)
HO=305 FWHP and 330 ft/lbs (based off the 350 HP 350)
LT-1=322 FWHP and 330 ft/lbs (based off the 370 HP LT-1)

 

The ignorance that this thread subject its readers to brings new meaning to the word asinine.

With so many people being 'different' if I'm 'normal' or 'sensible' does that now put me in the minority? So am I now different since I’m not doing something ‘different’? If a plane is on a conveyor…

$400 for a CORE?!? For a $350?!? Find someone who deosn't smoke crack and buy from them. I have five in the garage and I have a whopping $100 invested, including a few sets of heads, rods, etc.

For those simpleminded enough to argue the 350 vs. 400 vs. 454 and so on argument... try arguing that contextually with price, you may be surprised that the 'cool' 305 loses the cost game as well. Down on power and money, great way to start! I’ll take a more sophisticated argument if anyone can actually come up with one for this idiocy.

LMAO @ Black Echo's site. Cute…

"Our L03 will now run circles around a stock TPI engine of either displacement, and will embarrass even some built up TPI engines and certainly anything that a Mustang can throw at you."

Yep, those mustangs are so darned slow...

Fast, the 305 is an asinine design for a performance engine, plain and simple. The easiest and most obvious problem are the valve locations relationally to the cylinder walls – pure joke. No ifs ands or buts about that, a purly unmitigated disater of a design. And IIRC the 305 made an appearnace in CA ONLY in the Vette. Circa 1980 I think. Wonder why? Hmmm… Get back to me on that one will you? And HP and thermal efficiancy are better in the 305?!? Contextually related to what? Pure numbers? In that case my 3.4l V-8 probably outshines both, but I sure don't want one in anything other than my daily driver!

Karps, you goofed, it would cost $20 less for the hot chick relationally, uless you had to buy a core, then maybe $10 more. Unless you're in crack-town TX where a bare core costs $400!! Hell, I know why no one wants to build them there, it's easier to score a QP for the same or less cash!

Oh and before you spout off how impressive 15 seconds is in a van, maybe you should ping Vader on how slow my Suburban went. I'll guarantee you though that no dinky 305 was pushing the thing. If he plays innocent, bribe him with that silvery paste he likes on his pancakes.

All that said, it’s your money. I’ll also say that stupid people are seperated from their money daily as well. If you think it's cool, well, have at it. I hear some people think it's cool to hang themselves on hooks too.

 

C'mon red evil, why would you want to build a 400hp 350, when for the same amount of money and more work you could have a BAD *** 305! Seriously look at these threads 92need-a-z, there is plenty of info out there.
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...building+a+305
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...building+a+305
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...building+a+305
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...ight=305+build
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...ight=305+build
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...ight=305+build
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...ight=305+build
And I could go on, and on, and on and...

 

Red Devil- MAYBE I SHOULD MOVE TO THE RUST BELT!!!! The going price for a 350 longblock in DECENT shape is about $400.00 around here. HELL the rebuilders want $600.00 as a CORE charge. I got a hell of a deal when I got my 350, though it was attached to a 1992 Van. I can pick up 305 blocks for practically free.

There is a class of circle car guys that run 305s, STOCK head (No porting, etc), a big cam, headers, stock GM 4 bbl cast iron manifolds (intake and exhaust), as well as a Q-Jet. I know of one that will pull 400+ RWHP.

A 305s valves are at the same angle as a 350 so I still don't follow. Lay the 3.800" 305 head gasket on a 305 head and have another look. My bore is 3.775 sou you can't tell me that .025" makes a huge difference in appearance and function. My heads flow in the 230 range with a 75% I/E flow ratio. The cam has its peak lift about .050 above the best flow point on the heads, combine that with a reasonable cam and you will get power. The 305 CAN RUN!!! PERIOD, END OF STORY!!!

ASININE it maybe, but it works.

ALSO, in case you didn't notice, he said this was his DAILY driver, not a dedicated racer. That makes the 305 a no brainer.

Whats in the Suburban? A 454???

 

So your saying that a high hp 350 can't be daily driven? Did you hear that guys, we better all pull out our 350's and drop in these darm BAD *** 305's that these guys are running. If anything its the opposite. The 305 would have to turn at a higher rpm to build the power that even a mild 350 would. Your not being smart when you build a 305, if anything you have a little insanity in you., especially to think that its something special

 

Cruising along in OD. That is about 3,300 RPM in OD with 3.08 gears and P295/50/R17s. 130 MPH to be exact, just shy of burrying the 140 speedo! All from a little 305.

305s can't make power

You won't make me give up building 305s, they get the job done. I don't mind losing 20-30 ft/lbs of torque to get better mileage (Averages over long distances speak for themself), my current 305 runs faster than my previous 355 did.

 

fast 355 no one says 305 can't build some power, it just makes no sense when a 350 will make a lot more power with that same work. If your current 305 is faster then your old 355 then it had some serious issues, or you have a lot of money into your 305. If this guy thinks hes doing something crazy and badass by building a 305, and thinks hes gonna get 300hp easy hes got another thing comming. Abd you seriously think your only losing 20 ft lbs of torque by not using a 350 Wake up man, this whole "My 305 is superior to your 350" crap is ridiculous. If you wanted gas mileage, wtf are you doing with a fing heavy v8 car from the 80's I think you need to go buy a Toyota echo It would be faster then that damn van you were bragging about, and get better mileage

 

The 305 has a bigger cam than my 350 did by 20* @ .050". The 305 runs with almost 1 point higher compression due to the cam and the added detonation resistance of the smaller bore and smaller quench area.

The 305 has less than $700.00 in it from heads to pan. Machine work, reconditioned stock forged crank and X-rods, balance job, pistons, rings, cam, lifters, 1.6:1 self align rockers, and garage ported 081 heads. It was a cheap build.

The numbers for my old 355 were 279 RWHP @ 4,600 and 340 ft/lbs @ 2,600. The numbers for the 312 were 278 RWHP @ 5,500 and 325 ft/lbs @ 3,350. See where I got the 15 ft/lbs difference from. The 355 would start to drop off the brick wall at about 4,500 and the 312 will pull to 6,000. That is 1,500 RPM more for the 312 and the reason it runs faster and harder. The shift points are over 1,000 rpm higher on the 312 than the 355 was. Helps drop the ET and raise the MPH. Plus at part-throttle the engine is more willing to rev and accelerate but still has plenty of torque. The same cam in a 350 would have made it behave similarly though.

I would like to see a Toyot Echo pull a 6,000 lbs trailer down the highway. That is like 2 of those cars. I drive nearly 30,000 miles a year most of it pulling a trailer. I will take off with another person and drive non-stop until I get there, then come back. Sometimes we go 2,000 miles only stopping for bathroom and gas breaks. You may wonder why I don't have a diesel. I have had one, I HATE them! When something breaks it almost always cost over $1000 to fix. I could build my whole engine for that.

The ECHO is the biggest POS ever. I am 6'2", the ECHO and all compact cars are way too small for me. The van gets 20 MPG unloaded on the highway and about 15 pulling a 3,000 lbs trailer. That is good enough for me. The 350 would get maybe 18 unloaded and about 13 pulling 3,000 lbs. Add that up with gas costing $2.50 a gallon and you will see how the savings quickly add up. That is a 10% savings unloaded and like getting 70 free miles from each tank.

That is why I said if it is a daily driver a 305 is a good choice. A mild 350 is too don't get me wrong. But add up what that extra few HP is going to cost you over say the life of the engine (200,000 miles?) 275 RWHP is surely enough for a daily driver?

BTW, computer modeling made by putting my engine into a full weight 3,790 lbs(with driver) 1990 RS with a 700r4, 2000 stall, 3.23 gears, and the stock tires spits out a 13.6 @ 105.3, a top speed of over 160 MPH, and 25+ MPG @ 70 MPH.
On my van it is 2 tenths fast and 3 mph slow and less than 1 MPG off, so pretty accurate, IMO. I am getting the flywheel numbers by using 15% loss at Peak HP and 12% loss at Peak TQ from my Mustang Dyno Numbers.

If I were very serious about BRUTE HP and not driveability I would go back to the combo I had 2 years ago. 305 Long Block, Worked 601's, Comp Xtreme Energy 274 cam, Performer RPM Spreadbore, 800 CFM Q-Jet, Headers, 3" Duals, and a different air cleaner setup. That setup ran a 14.8 @ 95 shifting at 6,500 RPM. Got 13 MPG city and about 17 Highway.

I seriously doub't the ECHO is faster or better, I will hook up to him anyday and DRAG him away.

Fast355, OUT.

 

Threads like this really sadden me. First, because they get started. 2nd, because of the heated, head-strong responses that result.

The 305 vs. 350 debate has gone on so many times here, it really isn't necessary again. The stark reality is the power difference between identically built 305 & 350 is not the ratio of their displacements, because the 350 will always breathe better than the 305 with it's small bore.

But, for people to pound their cyber chests like has been done here (guilt belongs to both sides) is unacceptable. So, it's time for Mr.