Ithink I messed up , really stumped now
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 44
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From: alberta
Car: 87iroc
Engine: 5.7vortecstealthram
Transmission: 5-speed
Axle/Gears: 9-bolt posi
Ithink I messed up , really stumped now
Fresh rebuild and I had the car running three weeks ago. Timed it at 6-7 BTDC and ran vey good. Kept it running for about an hour then changed oil. Didn't notice any shavings in the oil or magnetic plug, so topped it back up and started her again. So now I come home from work and go to fire it up to show a buddy and nothing . It barely turns over now and my battery keeps draining just trying to start it . I noticed a puff of smoke come up in the engine bay but I couldn't see where it came from, either the starter fried or the alt. cooked. Anyway when I take the plugs out the starter will rotate the engine and with the plugs in it won't even budge. I don't know what to do now , I'm lost . Maybe i'll take to a shop and have them deal with it. Sad thing is I just put in about three grand into this engine and don't really have more money to spend on it. It's a rebuilt 98 vortec w/stealthram and adjustable reg.on the rails , I got the chip from TPI Parts and after all I put into my ride I thought I was done and ready to cruise. Any info or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. As for now I'll change the starter and see if anything happens. One more thing, with the spark plugs in how hard should it be to rotate?, because I can barley turn it by hand.
Junior Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
From: Grand Island, NY
Car: 1991 Camaro RS
Engine: 305 TBI - Yeah... That's gotta go
Transmission: 700R4
I am a little confused about getting the starter to rotate without plugs and won't rotate with it... can u elaborate on your process, visual affects smells sounds etc
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Last edited by Bird1994; Jun 17, 2006 at 09:48 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Junior Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
From: Grand Island, NY
Car: 1991 Camaro RS
Engine: 305 TBI - Yeah... That's gotta go
Transmission: 700R4
well after the starter start from square one...
Get out the compression gauge and have someone crank the engine for you. A new engine should read somewhere around 140 psi. But even an old, tired engine with only 60-80 psi should run.
Get out the compression gauge and have someone crank the engine for you. A new engine should read somewhere around 140 psi. But even an old, tired engine with only 60-80 psi should run.
If you don't have a gauge or just don't think loss of compression is likely, at least do a touchie-feelie test. Turn the engine over by hand (with the spark plugs still in). Turn OFF the ignition! You can turn the generator pulley rather than the crank pulley. Watch the crank pulley. You should feel a definite "tight" spot twice each revolution of the crank. Do the test
a few times to get the feel of it. You should be able to tell if one or more cylinders have low or no compression.
If you haven't already done it, this may be a good time to check the valve adjustment, just for kicks.
Spark is the hardest of the items to verify. You really can't see it happening and it's even harder to tell if the spark is happening at the right time!
Definitely do a test for spark at the plugs. Remove one of the plug wires from a plug and hold it near grounded metal. (If the plug end has a long insulated shroud, you may have to improvise to get ground close enough to the end of the wire.) Have someone crank the engine while you watch for spark. If you get an 1/8" or so of spark, that should be enough to fire.
If you don't have a helper, you can do it this way:
Pull the hi-tension lead out of the distributor cap and hold near ground.
With ignition On, turn the engine pulley CW past the TDC mark. You should get some kind of spark, although if you turn slowly the spark may be weak.
Check the distributor cap inside for signs of cracks or carbon arc tracks. Also, check to see that the little carbon contact for the center terminal is in place; without that you can have spark but it won't get to any plug wires!
Check the rotation of the plug wires. The best of us have gotten them mixed up! This might also be a good time to test whether the distributor drive tang is engaged. The distributor may look like it is inserted all the way into the case, but sometimes it will fool you. Take the cap off and try to turn the rotor. Normally, it will turn a little bit as the mechanical advance turns. But if you can turn it a quarter turn or fully around, the drive is not engaged and timing will be off.
What else could possibly go wrong? You've got the plug wires in the right holes and you know there is spark but the damn thing still won't start. What else could be wrong? Well, what we haven't done is determine if the spark is happening at the right time!
Timing: Never mind which distributor you have or what the tuning specs for your engine are. Right now we are only interested in getting the thing to run. I have found that the engine will start the first time much better if the timing is set to TDC or, even better, retarded just slightly. Let's do that. Disconnect any vacuum hoses to the distributor and plug them. If you know how to statically time, do that now and set it to TDC.
As a quick test of the timing, remove the Hi-tension lead from the distributor cap and place it near grounded metal. With the ignition ON, rotate the pulley CW until you get a spark. Turn the distributor slightly if needed so the spark occurs at TDC.
I did all the tests and have the spark set at TDC and it still won't start!!
This happens a lot. Suppose, for example, that the spark is indeed occurring at TDC, BUT is not occurring when the cylinders are ready to fire!
How can that happen? Well, we might have put the plug wires in the wrong place.
But I put #1 plug wire in the hole where the notch is in the distributor body!
Yes, and that usually works. But, what if...you or the previous owner installed the distributor drive gear a few teeth off where it's supposed to be. Or...if the distributor has been rebuilt in a way that makes the notch meaningless. Happens.
What we need is a foolproof test to find out if #1 plug wire is really in the right hole in the cap.
THE TEST!!!
Turn the pulley so that the rotor is pointing at the #1 plug wire.
The pulley should now be at TDC.
NOW, remove the valve cover on the right side.
Check the Intake and Exhaust valves for #1 cylinder.
Both valves should be closed. (If they are closed, their rocker arms will feel loose and the stems will be all the way out.) When both Intake and Exhaust valves are closed, that cylinder has completed the compression stroke and is in position to fire.
If Intake and Exhaust are NOT closed at this time, there is a problem with the distributor setup and the engine will not run.
a few times to get the feel of it. You should be able to tell if one or more cylinders have low or no compression.
If you haven't already done it, this may be a good time to check the valve adjustment, just for kicks.
Spark is the hardest of the items to verify. You really can't see it happening and it's even harder to tell if the spark is happening at the right time!
Definitely do a test for spark at the plugs. Remove one of the plug wires from a plug and hold it near grounded metal. (If the plug end has a long insulated shroud, you may have to improvise to get ground close enough to the end of the wire.) Have someone crank the engine while you watch for spark. If you get an 1/8" or so of spark, that should be enough to fire.
If you don't have a helper, you can do it this way:
Pull the hi-tension lead out of the distributor cap and hold near ground.
With ignition On, turn the engine pulley CW past the TDC mark. You should get some kind of spark, although if you turn slowly the spark may be weak.
Check the distributor cap inside for signs of cracks or carbon arc tracks. Also, check to see that the little carbon contact for the center terminal is in place; without that you can have spark but it won't get to any plug wires!
Check the rotation of the plug wires. The best of us have gotten them mixed up! This might also be a good time to test whether the distributor drive tang is engaged. The distributor may look like it is inserted all the way into the case, but sometimes it will fool you. Take the cap off and try to turn the rotor. Normally, it will turn a little bit as the mechanical advance turns. But if you can turn it a quarter turn or fully around, the drive is not engaged and timing will be off.
What else could possibly go wrong? You've got the plug wires in the right holes and you know there is spark but the damn thing still won't start. What else could be wrong? Well, what we haven't done is determine if the spark is happening at the right time!
Timing: Never mind which distributor you have or what the tuning specs for your engine are. Right now we are only interested in getting the thing to run. I have found that the engine will start the first time much better if the timing is set to TDC or, even better, retarded just slightly. Let's do that. Disconnect any vacuum hoses to the distributor and plug them. If you know how to statically time, do that now and set it to TDC.
As a quick test of the timing, remove the Hi-tension lead from the distributor cap and place it near grounded metal. With the ignition ON, rotate the pulley CW until you get a spark. Turn the distributor slightly if needed so the spark occurs at TDC.
I did all the tests and have the spark set at TDC and it still won't start!!
This happens a lot. Suppose, for example, that the spark is indeed occurring at TDC, BUT is not occurring when the cylinders are ready to fire!
How can that happen? Well, we might have put the plug wires in the wrong place.
But I put #1 plug wire in the hole where the notch is in the distributor body!
Yes, and that usually works. But, what if...you or the previous owner installed the distributor drive gear a few teeth off where it's supposed to be. Or...if the distributor has been rebuilt in a way that makes the notch meaningless. Happens.
What we need is a foolproof test to find out if #1 plug wire is really in the right hole in the cap.
THE TEST!!!
Turn the pulley so that the rotor is pointing at the #1 plug wire.
The pulley should now be at TDC.
NOW, remove the valve cover on the right side.
Check the Intake and Exhaust valves for #1 cylinder.
Both valves should be closed. (If they are closed, their rocker arms will feel loose and the stems will be all the way out.) When both Intake and Exhaust valves are closed, that cylinder has completed the compression stroke and is in position to fire.
If Intake and Exhaust are NOT closed at this time, there is a problem with the distributor setup and the engine will not run.
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
From: alberta
Car: 87iroc
Engine: 5.7vortecstealthram
Transmission: 5-speed
Axle/Gears: 9-bolt posi
Yeah but i had the car running 3 weeks ago, disconnected the brown wire the manual says to disconnect and it started up with the flick of the key;very easy start. I let let it idle/warm up for half an hour like laike that then threw the timing light on. I was only off about 15- 20 degrees so buddy turned dizzy while I kept the light on the dampner. Got as close as I could to 6 degrees and then shut her off and disconnected battery. Plugged the brown wire back in And she fired up even easier than first try and idled nice and smooth. Now it barley turns over, I'm going to replace starter on monday and see if thats the problem. I know its getting spark; I did the test with the #1 plug and yes its getting fuel cause i can smell it when the plugs are off and buddy is cranking over engine. It is very hard to rotate engine by hand w/plugs out so I'm thinking something internal is wrecked and if so I'm screwed bigtime.
Junior Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
From: Grand Island, NY
Car: 1991 Camaro RS
Engine: 305 TBI - Yeah... That's gotta go
Transmission: 700R4
well don't lose hope some of them are just plain tough to turn by hand to check tdc without any internal problems (I don't know if you tried a hand rotation before you had these problems) just don't use a screwdriver... lol a shop bought me a motor that way
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