WileECoyoteSr

He you guys with all the answers. I'd like to introduce you to GM Muscle on our site. He hasn't quite got the hang of posting or PM but he needs help. He called me this evening and his car, I believe its an 89 5.7L TPI with MAF in a Camaro, has started to have a simliar "failure to launch" that I and others have endured. He's as bummed out about an unreliable F-body sitting in his drive as you and I. Give him your help, would you please? If you cannot PM him to his 3rd Gen profile under Members, I've asked Paul in Ontario to direct email him to get his list of symptoms and what he's done so far. He's watching the site. He just hasn't been able to join the conversation yet.
T.W.
Wichita, KS

y84pauloflondon

I agree with WileECoyoteSr, there is no delay with fuel inj cars, uses less fuel with power to boot, and they SHOULD run the same in cold and warm/hot weather. These engines don't freeze up like they did in the 60's and 70's.

quick90rs

iTrader: (3)

yeaa i understand the only reason im going to make the switch is beacause with my new cam the computer has no idea what its doing if your good at carburetor you can get her running mint, i only like it beacause i dont have to rely on the computer to do this or that ill tune it myself but good luck with it man

WileECoyoteSr

REF: Getting computer to recognize a non-stock CAM.
You just need the PROM to recognize your CAM, don't you? When I built up my 61 Impala with an 85 Corvette L98 TPI I found a school teacher in Iowa that programmed PROM's. He spent an hour on the phone with me going through a list of questions about how I was going to use the car, what other changes like the MAF conversion to MAP, K&N breather, A/C, type of headers, etc. When I installed his PROM it ran like a champ right out of the box.

I may have his address in that old 61's history file if anyone wants it. No promises. I gave the buyer a five inch thick owners manual when I sold the car.

quick90rs

iTrader: (3)

yes all i would need is my prom redone but for some reason I want to go with a carburetor I guess i just like the idea of the simplicity of being able to act as the computer of the car plus i already bought everything

y84pauloflondon

So the 2 new relays fixed my car, then what about the MAF sensor that the dealer told me was no good when I took it there the first time???

Well I have taken out the reman MAF and put back in the 6 yr old MAF sensor that was GM new when I bought it.($500.00cdn).

Well guess what! The car has been running just fine now for the last 10 mins....NO CODES....

So all that time and money spent was for NOTHING..... What a bounch of DumbA**es....

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

more evidence in a suit against the dealer, i HOPE you make them eat their **** for it!

y84pauloflondon

Don't get me wrong! I've got no problem with carburetors, and I do like the idea to "act as the cars computer". A bit more user friendly I guess. But in no way am I capable of swapping out a TPI for a Carb. I still think the electric fuel injected car has the advantage over a Carb car.

Good Luck to you on your swap!

y84pauloflondon

You kill me buddy, maybe I should just right in the back of there heads....

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

lol yea.... but i DO hope you can get somethin outta them

y84pauloflondon

No dought eh! When I told them to replace the fuel pump the first time I was there. Their must of been like 6-8 techs standing around with little smiles on their faces when the car still didn't start up.....Seeing them, with a smerk on their faces Really PMO...

Wait until they see my BIG smile....

To get something free...probably Not! But they will get an a**kicking from me!

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

lol, if i were you, i would demand that the tech be present, in the meeting with the service manager, be nice at first, and if they don't budge, be a LIVID A$$

y84pauloflondon

And I now have too (to be on the safe side) do a oil change+filter, change the spark plugs, run GM Intake cleaner, and hell why not, put a New fuel pump relay($15) since the one in the car is probably just as old!

MO MONEY, MO MONEY, MO MONEY!!! lol

WileECoyoteSr

My Z-28 is still running after replacing the distributor and so I think we can call my problem solved.

Dealer Recall on fuel filler to tank: I think that was post like 93 or 98 or something in any case I need to apologize to the 3rd Gen forum participants. The dealer DID THEIR JOB. I called the service manager and before I told him my evidence he described the steps they took. I could easily see that the "evidence" of fuel I thought I saw was actually evidence that they had soaked the weld area in soapy solutions before they pressurized the tank and watched for air bubbles.

But just to make sure, after I replaced the fuel vent line that had a hole and was giving me the fuel smell, I power washed the filler tube end of the tank to remove all residue and then I filled the fuel tank literally to the cap. NO LEAKS with the cap on and the engine running which pressurizes the system via the return line running bank into the tank.

I'm good to go and I apologize for slamming my local dealer. The SM there actually said they would have loved to replace my fuel tank on GM's recall nickel. Recalls are a service revenue source for them. But they didn't find anything wrong with mine.

So far the fuel smell has gone away.

y84pauloflondon

WileECoyoteSr. So I take it that you got your NEW cap?

y84pauloflondon

To: Chevy8588.
Thinking about it now, I would love to go down to the dealer and giving them a piece of my mind....But I'm 99% sure that by the end of the conversation I WONT get any money back OR anythinking for free for their f*** up diagnosis.

This dealer will be closing down once they have all there GMC's, Pontiac's and Buick's sold off. The owner has opened a new Hyundai Dealership and has hand picked the Tech's that he wants over at that dealership! I had the LEFTOVER tech's working on my car! Now I know why they were left behind!!!

Anyway, that dealership WILL NOT HAND OVER any money to me without a legal fight! Its just not worth it! I'm just being realistic!

WileECoyoteSr

New gas cap? Nope. Kept the cheap locking one for now. No one in Wichita, Chevy, Pontiac or GMC carries the genuine GM gas cap for anything older than a 1993 which evidently is different according to each dealer.

y84pauloflondon

I know I've said it before, if it was me, I would try a local auto wreckers and find the 3rd gens and take the BEST cap. Atleast to have as a backup....

y84pauloflondon

O.K. Guys, so we got another one!!! Lets get to it!!!

WileECoyoteSr

Three of us have been trying to email GM Muscle on the private email he gave me and it comes back as a wrong address. I must have copied it down wrong. I PM'd him via 3rd Gen. And he has my cell number off my profile. When he gets back in contact with me I'll try to walk him through posting so he can put his symptoms and steps taken up for members to look over.

By the way. My car quit smelling like gas. Just goes to show you that you need to check the obvious first like rubber fuel lines. DUH!

y84pauloflondon

I have recieved a private message from GM Muscle, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't know how he did that! More luck then skill! So I took a chance and sent him a PM which tells him how too post onto a thread.....he'll read it when he figures out how to check his account, lol.......poor guy!

WileECoyoteSr

Your GTA still running okay? It's been a couple of days now! Just took mine for a spin with my wife and I think I may have to disconnect the battery and let the ECM zero out and then let it "learn" some new manners since getting the exhaust fixed. Smells a little rich.
Best regards,
T.W.

y84pauloflondon

Take a look at the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor). It should be between 0.46v(lean)-0.62v(rich). My book calls for a setting of 0.54v-0.56v. All you need is a multimeter. If its set high(ex. 0.60v) that alone could make your car run rich!

Reply on here or PM me if you don't know how to set the TPS.

I almost forgot, YES it's running great, just finishing a tune-up,(oil, filter, and spark plugs), cleaned out the Throttle Body and Upper Plenum.

WileECoyoteSr

Thanks for the TPS advice. I'll try to get to it this weekend between the household chores.

Good to hear your ride is still running strong.

y84pauloflondon

Well guys, here way go.... I just recieved a PM form GM Muscle, and here is his list:

I hope I haven't broken any messaging etiquette...I'm totally ignorant!

I read the thread that WileECoyoteSr posted. Seeing as how you guys gave him all sorts of great information that lead to the eventual "cure", I thought you might steer me in the right direction.

I have a '89 Iroc-Z with a 5.7 TPI and 2.77 rear end. There are 80K original miles on the car and I bought it about four years ago from the original owner with about 58K. The only modifications that have been made is adding Ceramic-coated Edelbrock headers and a Borla exhaust system.

Before I start with the problem I'd like to add a parenthetical note, which may help to solve my dilema. When I bout the car I also purchased an Actron scan tool for both OBD I and OBD II. I used it on a couple of my cars and on others too. I never was able to get the tool to interface with the ECM. I simply grounded the A and B terminals under the dash to get what I needed.

The car ran great up unitl three months ago when the car faild to start. I let the car sit in my garage for a few hours and then it performed fine. That only lasted a couple of weeks before it stranded me. I didn't have my tools with me so I just checked for spark and the fuel pump fuse. They were both ok, but still, it wouldn't start! I finally broke down and called a tow truck. Once the tow truck left my home....the damn thing started right up!! Ever since then, its been very iffy when it starts.

The motor turns over just fine, but no start occurs. Here's a break-down of what I've done:

1. Checked for Fuel (43 psi when cranking)
2. Checked for spark (ok)
3. used a noid light on driver's side only (ok)
4. Got codes from ECM as described before.
5. Replaced MAF sensor/both relays (burn-off too)
6. Disconnected MAF sensor ( no start)
7. Disconnected TPS (no start)
**Can't really see what TPS is doing because of not being able to read ECM with scan tool
Everything Seems to check out, but still it doesn't start !! I'm running out of ideas and performing an exorcism is coming up pretty shortly on my to do list!

Since there is spark and juice to the injector harness, I don't suspect the VATS. May be its the magnetic pick up, just as with WileECoyoteSr?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Jose

y84pauloflondon

Damn computer sent the post out twice, POC.....sorry guys!

WileECoyoteSr

I think GM Muscle/Jose failed to mention that he has a K&N Air Filter as well. I don't know if that screws up the MAF or not. My 91 luckily was MAP standard and doesn't have that MAF thin wire from He** to worry about.

y84pauloflondon

I have a home made cool air intake with a K&N air filter.....It makes no difference. The filter is not his problem here!

y84pauloflondon

GM Muscle never did list what codes #'s he has???? OR am I blind? lol

WileECoyoteSr

I'm sure GM Muscle will get back to you with his codes. I know he had some because he had to read them with the flashing lights since his OBD1 wouldn't read.

By the way, I had a call from a nice young lady in California with a 89 TPI Camaro that she bought to replace her totaled V-6 Camaro. The TPI car hasn't run evidently since 2003. She described some of the steps she's taken so far like ignition module, fuel pump, filter and regulator. She has fuel to the rail and she says the injectors operate but they aren't getting a firing command. When we discussed the VATS she told me her car didn't come with keys with resistor pellets. That tells me the VATS either is working and she didn't get a correct key for it, or the VATS was bypassed. She also has a toggle switch sticking out of the bottom of the dash. I told her she needs to trace that switch and look for an alarm box.

I hope you, y84PaulofLondon and Chevy8588 don't mind but I suggested she get active on this thread and list her symptoms and steps taken and perhaps PM each of you. You guys are the ones who helped me fix my ride. I just started the thread.

y84pauloflondon

"She also has a toggle switch sticking out of the bottom of the dash." It could be a manual switch for the aux/AC fan, I've done the samething to mine.

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

i spoke with her, she has an 89 with a 350 TPI. in 89 GM went to all F bodies with VATS, she does NOT have a VATS key for the car, I believe this to be her problem. also, the switch goes to her fans. when vats is enabled, the car will crank but not fire, also for those who are going to say crap about the security light, many of her function bulbs are INOP, security is one of them, I advised that she see if the dealer can cut her a key by vin, if so then that SHOULD do it, but we'll see if her VATS system has been torn apart or not.

y84pauloflondon

if her system IS torn up...sounds expensive....

Hey buddy, I was wondering where you were! lol

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

lol, I'm here, just tired and worn out, over worked, and under F***ked :P

y84pauloflondon

LMAO.....Life's a Beach....Ain't It!

gm muscle

Hey guys,
I'm trying to get replying stuff figured out, so forgive me if i screw it up!
I don't remember the codes I got from the ECM because I disconnected the bat., so it erased the codes. With that being said, they were the codes for the MAF Sensor and burn-off.

y84pauloflondon

There are 3 codes that are effected by the MAF sensor and the burnoff relay:
-Code 33, 34, 36(Which is defective MAF burn-off relay). Do any of thses seem familiar to you?

Congrat on your first post!!!

y84pauloflondon

Either way I would start with the 2 MAF relays, REPLACE them, cheap to do, and one last thing to worry about....
Should cost you....US$20-30.00

MAF Power Relay: GM#10067925
MAF Burn-Off Relay: GM#10094701(this replaces GM#14078907 Org. GM Relay)

Never mind, You've done that already.........Crap!!!

y84pauloflondon

Well, I guess its time to replace your the MAF sensor itself then!(Try a remanufactored MAF sensor next).

gm muscle

Well, I've already done that too!
One thing I did fail to mention is that about two months prior to the no-start, the car was making a wierd sound....like air escaping, but it had a groan to it. Possesed, I know!! It lasted about 10 seconds...scared me silly the 1st time I heard it!!
It seem to come from the driver's side. Around the firewall, maybe. It would happend about every hour and since the no-start, it stopped doing it.

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

perhaps a blown brake booster? it seems to me that something is not telling your injectors to fire, I would blame this on either a sensor or the ECM itself. though I wouldnt rule out a plugged up exhaust

y84pauloflondon

2, 2 Posts AH AH AH.......sorry, done now!

But what about the Ghost thats Groaning under his hood, could a blown booster really prevent him from starting up his car?(I don't think so....I could be wrong.) Even with some of my vacuum lines off, my car just runs crapy!

To: GM Muscle- Try going on "You Tube", look up "Fuel Injector Test". Its a video of someone showing How To Test Them! Then atleast we would know if you are getting any juice to your injectors! (your car does not need to be running to do this, just key to On)

gm muscle

The motor turns over just fine, but no start occurs. Here's a break-down of what I've done:

1. Checked for Fuel (43 psi when cranking)
2. Checked for spark (ok)
3. used a noid light on driver's side only (ok)
4. Got codes from ECM as described before.
5. Replaced MAF sensor/both relays (burn-off too)
6. Disconnected MAF sensor ( no start)
7. Disconnected TPS (no start)
**Can't really see what TPS is doing because of not being able to read ECM with scan

So, there it is.

That's interesting...a bad brake booster! The exhaust system is pretty new. Edelbrock headers and a Borla exhasut system.

y84pauloflondon

O.K. but have you checked out that video yet?
HOW TO OHM CHECK A FUEL INJECTOR type this in on you tube!

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

the ECM is not talking to the scanner? hmmm that's usually a sign of a bad ECM, have you checked your injector fuses?

y84pauloflondon

Bad ECM....maybe! But he did say they he got codes from it at some point!!! He just can't remember which ones, (MAF related). I would still try to test the injectors(ohms) first, before moving on to replacing the ECM.

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

yea what will happen is if you have a bad injector, it can actually shut down the injectors drivers and cause a no start condition, ohm them out and we can move from there.

y84pauloflondon

I've got a BAD feeling about his ECM. I REALLY hope its just an injector problem.... If its not the injectors(ohms=good), we should help him to double check ECM connections next!!!(Chevy8588: what do you think Buddy?).

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

really in all reality you should hope for the opposite, you should hope for a bad ECM as opposed to his injectors, a set of good injectors will run about 300 USD and will take a good 2-3 hours to install, also have to buy all new gaskets too, as opposed to the ECM witch can be picked up for around 100 USD, and takes 15 minutes to install. so dont wish bad injectors on him :P It is odd that he can't talk to his ECM with a scanner. that sends up a red flag, but he might mean he has no scanner to read with.

Here's what I THINK.
The equation for combustion = Air+fuel+spark=combustion, take one out and what happens? no combustion.

He said he checked his injectors with a noid light - has injector pulse
he said he checked spark - has spark

Now here's what interests me, He has maf codes, but it wont start even when unplugging the MAF. This would be my focus, i think this is our area of problem.

If say there were a clog in the exhaust there would be no air flow, correct? no now that leave us with spark and fuel, but no air, no cmbustion. also no air flow, would set a code with the MAF.

so my thought would be to have a buddy crank and see of you have air coming out of the exhaust, if NOT, or very little, I would drop the exhaust at the cat and try to fire it then, if it fires, your cat probably melted or your muffler baffles broke apart and clogged her up.

gm muscle

Hey guys, thanks for all the great ideas!
The car does start every now and again; just can't rely on it. When it does, it runs fine. My stepfather tells me to buy another ECM. The prom could also be the problem too, right.