Yes plese!

Kep the AIR sytem in storage, it may become usefull again, to keep the emission components level, within local requirements. On a "new" powerful engine for exemple

 

Sofa, if you're so smart then how do you explain non-air cats? My old 94 GMC Jimmy didn't have any of this smog pump crap on it, and my grandfather was the original owner so I know for a fact that it hasn't been touched.

I'm surprised that your "wisdom" and "experience" hasn't taught you to shut up when the other party isn't swayed by the worthless crap you're spewing. It's MY car so I can do WHATEVER I please WITHOUT your consent, it PASSED the test, I DON'T plan on moving out of state anytime soon, and I'm NOT FORCING anyone to do this, so just DROP IT. Accept those facts already. And just to save you the trouble, I'm ignoring anything else you have to say that just involves ripping me a new one.

Here's the printout by the way!



Edit: Hmm, I never really looked at the sheet so I just noticed that the limits are there as well. It's weird how I'm RIGHT on the limit for HC (I'm guessing hydrocarbons?), CO was pretty good, and 0 for NOx. Wtf? The car's gotta emit SOME NOx, right?

 

Improvements in control systems and catalytic converter technology. More modern converter designs can use oxygen freed during the reduction of NOx emissions to oxidize HC and CO, or they can store oxygen during lean periods to use later.

 

Oh ok makes sense. I just find it funny that my ancient Jimmy didn't require a smog pump! Maybe because it's labeled as a truck or something...

 

Trucks had vastly different emissions limits until recently. Look at how much longer carburetors lasted on trucks, and look at how the big 3 pushed everyone into SUVs instead of minivans to beat CAFE limits.

HC is hydrocarbon. Count your lucky stars that you passed at 60 ppm when the limit is 60. One little misfire during the test probably would have put you over.

It's possible they didn't bother testing for NOx emissions, based on the age of the vehicle.

Be sure to show all your friends that you're driving a 14.6 HP monster, too.

 

It's ok, I maintain my car too well to allow for any misfires and let's how much power any car makes to the wheels at 1500 rpm, let alone an old (mostly) stock thirdgen. Are YOU, a TGO MODERATOR, trying to poke fun at me? LOL. I should've asked them to let 'er rip if those rollers serve as a dyno as well.

Oh and I dug up an old emissions sheet from my old test 2 years/15,000 miles ago when the car was still untouched. HC was at 39, CO was at 0.02, and NOx read 56. However the number for RPM is at 0 (I remember them having issues with the machine's tach) and the horsepower was at 14.6 as well. Glad to see that my old tuned port didn't miss a beat. So the smog pump does make a difference, but not one big enough to fail CT emissions. Sweet! I only have 1 more emissions test in this car's life left, considering that in 4 years it'll reach the emissions-exempt 25 year old threshold. That's when we'll have a REALLY fun time "hacking" away at it. If it fails the next one, oh well, I'll just slap the pump back on considering that I plan on holding onto it for now.

 

Well that confirms it, the AIR pump does reduce emissions even if it is old technology.. Maybe if you had a newer cat (with modern technology) it would reduce emissions further?

 

Really you're too close to the line to say that. All you can say for sure is that it didn't seem to make enough difference on that one test run. Another run repeated immediately after could be a failure. Or another pass for that matter.

HC levels of 39 ppm with and 60 ppm without AIR are pretty high for a well maintained car.

 

I'm sure it would! My cat is still the original factory unit with 113,000 miles on it. Hopefully I'll be able to do my exhaust system top-bottom soon with headers, a good y-pipe, and a new high-flow cat (already have a Magnaflow cat-back on there) so I'm curious to see how she'll do on her last emissions test in 2 years. I wonder if the G92 cars with the dual cats put out less emissions than the single cat cars like mine.

 

I wasn't being totally serious with that, but I was within the limits so I passed fair and square. And I thought it would be worth mentioning that the last emissions test took place less than a month after I bought the car from a guy up in New Hampshire. This was after the car sat for years, was driven for a little bit by the PO, and then sat for another year in his backyard until I bought it.

 

By carb/FI calibration that's SO LEAN that there's extra oxygen left in the exhaust stream. Pretty much a sucky way to get the job done, but hey, what do I know.

Totally AGREED. I have not the slightest problem whatsoever with YOU doing whatever YOU want to YOUR car.

Where I draw the line, is advising others that they should do the same.

No I WILL NOT "drop it".

 

(Turns on mortal combat theme song)

"FIGHT!"

 

I didn't read anything about encouraging others to "break the law". Maybe it's time for couch potato to start a new forum. Something like greenpeacethirdgen.org?

 

Sounds great!! Go for it.

Not sure where anything about greenpeace fits into this though? Looks like it's really more about immaturity and taking the short-term easy way out vs common sense and the long-term view.

 

Oh, contraire. greenpeacers like to push their ways on others, are shotty, and bow down to the leftist federal government i.e, the epa. I see an almost perfect fit

 

Swapping/ fabricating a dual cat exhaust should help drop the numbers a good bit. I've read some newer cars have 4!!

 

I've been wondering of a new replacement Cat Converter, build with the newer technology, would do a better job of reducing emissions than a 25 year old one?

 

Likely so... and have less impact on the engine's output power than the older ones as well. Especially compared to the old pellet-bed ones that were used up through the first few years of these cars, particularly in the low-output LG4 setup.

Modern vehicles, ones with LSx series engines for example, seem to do quite well, with the cats they come with.

In this country, where at any time the laws can change and suddenly mandate adherence to standards than before, such cats are widely and cheaply available. A good honeycomb direct-fit one for these cars is actually pretty cheeeep.

 

I got my non-AIR (air provision plugged with a cap) cat for 80$ from summit. It was a walker cat and it looks good, sounds good and smells a hell of a lot less.

 

Yeah, I'm definitely considering a dual-cat setup especially now that I have no smog pump considering that the dual cat setup should flow well and do a good job keep tail pipe crap clean (enough). I'd love to build a 383 someday (hopefully before the 25 year old emissions exception age lol) and I'm sure that will be harder to pass. Mind you, as you can see my car barely scraped by on it's original cat so I'm sure that a healthy new cat would help a lot, especially two of them. We'll see what happens!

 

Didn't read the entire thing but just my two cents on this one:

Yeah good luck trying that in CA, the emission test here is at least half visually. One needs the original air cleaner assembly with the heat riser tube from the exhaust, needs smog pump, working EGR, only one cat converter if your car originally came with it (exception would be if one "upgrades" to a dual cat option which was available the year your car was made), gas cap test, even the timing has to be set at stock, no advancing the timing

 

There's no reason to go dual cat. A modern single cat will easily outperform the old dual-cat system.

 

Dual cats I think will be too much flow for a little 305.. I would go with good flowing headers and ypipe into a single high flowing modern non-AIR cat (not much $$), into the magnaflow cat back exhaust. I'm assuming it's a 3" cat back exhaust? 3" single should have more than enough flow, that's what I have and I'm at approx. 270hp at the flywheel, probably more now since I got the car dyno'd 3 years ago. The dual cats I think would flow too much IMO.

 

I meant in general, as in one's not allowed to go dual exhaust with two cat converters, they may look, actually lol most likely they will, since we got two tail pipes anyway so they'll look to see if it's single exhaust two out, or dual.

 

I think pipe diameter would determine how much flow you would get. However, since you need to channel both pipes side by side then why not have a single cat?

 

CA sucks. I'm very grateful for being born in CT and not having to deal with all that California BS. Now that my car is 25 years old I can do whatever I want to it and never have to worry about a sniffer again! Gotta love CT.

 

I just assumed that 2 cats are better than 1. Anyway, some of the stuff that I wanna do to the 305 might seem like overkill but since I'll be putting all of this money into it I figured I'd get something that'll support something a bit bigger later on as well... like that 383 I mentioned.

 

Well, a 383 will definitely breathe better with dual cats Personally, I was looking into a 383 aluminum headed engine to install under the aftermarket TPI that I have now (ported plenum, AS&M runners, Accel manifold). THAT would be a torque MoNsTeR!!

 

Same here! It'll be a stump puller

 

Oh and I'll run a datalog on the car soon to see what it's doing now with the AIR pump gone. I should have one saved on my laptop from when I still had the air system on. This is assuming of course I can figure out how to post it here lol.

 

Some OF you guys NEED to STEP off of YOUR high horse.

My 85 Camaro has no AIR pump, no cats, no EGR, no EFE or evaporative emissions systems, it also has no problems passing emissions. My 00 Trans Am has no AIR pump, no cats, no EGR, no evaporative emissions, etc, and it also passes emissions. Quick! Somebody call the cops!

 

I know there is a battle going back and forth here about the legality of removing the air pump and if it actually does anything. I just want to add that my TTA has no air pump. How was it determined what engines needed it and which ones did not? The smog pump was added way back in the early 70's, so it is probably a relic that was unnecessary with better catalytic converters and modern fuel injection. Also, Federal emissions laws are only in effect when the car is 25 years old and newer. After that, I believe you can tear it all out. So at this point, anything older then 1986 doesn't need to worry about emissions equipment any more.

 

Manufacturers would install whatever was necessary to make the engine meet the required standards, which were pretty lax back in the day. If they could get a particular platform to pass without it, they left it out of the design to save cost.

Federal emissions laws apply to all vehicles built since 1968, regardless of age.

 

Thats not true. In CT and other states I'm sure, once a car reaches 25 years old or older it becomes emissions exempt and there is no more testing required on it. Same goes for MA as well, however they canned testing on ALL OBD1 vehicles in general. There are plenty of guys in the area with basically drag racing engines in older muscle cars and they never get hassled. You'll even smell the race gas when they drive by, lol.

 

State and Federal emissions laws are completely different from one another. I would chime in on this whole fiasco that seems to be going on here, but we have no testing in my state whatsoever...so I'm sure my opinion would be obvious.

 

In NY, once a car hits 26 yrs., no more testing. They also don't do testing here on OBD1 any more - just a visual.

 

In Quebec, Canada there are no visual or sniffer tests for any cars for emissions stuff. We don't even do inspections unless the car is bought from the US or out of province or has not been plated for over a year.

The cops have stopped me for the car being too loud. I had at the time, a gutted cat, no AIR, no EGR, 3" loud flowmaster exhaust, headers, big cam and other mods. They stopped me, and I just explained to them that no matter what they say they cannot do anything because the car is over 15 years old and when a car is 15 years or older (or pre 1995) it is exempt from police harassment pretty much.

 

it absolutely is true, regardless of whether or not your state tests the car, federal law is still federal law, and you can still get in trouble and fined for tampering.

That said, the odds of this ever happening are about zero

and older muscle cars dont have obd standards or really any emissions standards to begin with, so thats a bit of a grey area, since the station will not have any info available for the cars.

 

I don't know the exact law, but the "car guy" talk in CT is basically that once your car hits 25 years old or older, it's all fair game and you can let the modding begin. I personally in my 8-9 years of driving have never heard of anyone ever getting busted or harrased for having a car with a built engine that was exempt from emmissions due to it's age. I probably never will either in all honesty, at least around here.

And just to better inform myself, if the state you live in does not require emmissions testing whatsoever for a car 25 years old, how the heck would you ever get in trouble by the federal law? Just sounds odd to me that the state doesn't have any testing or visual inspection, yet apparently your still breaking federal law??

Man this country is F'ed!! LOL.

 

If you roll through a stop sign at 3:00am and no one sees you, did you break the law?

(Yes, I've rolled stop signs too.....)

 

The probability of getting caught doesn't enter much into jurisprudence.

 

laws can be strange.
here in Texas, when doing a safety inspection, a car can not be failed for not having a drivers' seat. the inspector can refuse to drive it, but not fail it.
no test drive, no safety sticker.


this is concerning vehicles that are operated on public roads and not off-road only vehicles.

a car can be exempt from emissions testing, but there is no such thing as being exempt from having the emissions components on cars that came with them.
that "car guy" in CT is causing people to break the law if he is telling them its ok to remove emissions components.
it could even be argued that he is guilty of sedition.

any state that gets any money from the federal government will not allow the legal removal of any emissions devices the vehicle came with from the factory no matter the age of the vehicle. if they do, the federal money will stop.
for now, the federal government leaves it up to the states to decide what years get tested. (this can change at any time).
here in Texas, at 25 years the tail pipe testing ends in the emissions counties, but the visual part is for life across the state.

i don't know what the federal fine is now, but it used to be up to $10.000 for removing an emissions part plus $1,000.00 per day for each day they could prove the vehicle was in operation with missing emissions parts.
(since its the federal government, the burden of proof would fall on the vehicle owner that said missing parts were not removed the day he bought the vehicle).
in addition, the fine imposed by the state of Texas was up to $25,000 for removal plus $1,000.00 per day.

 

This thread has answered a question for me.

It is apparent that the AIR pump never really did much and improvements in Catalytic Converters have made them redundant anyway.

Not having an AIR pump shouldn't weigh on anyone's environmental conscience.

 

Improvement in emissions control systems have made them redundant. New converter designs are only a part of that.

 

Wow, I feel bad for you guys in Texas. Texas has a HUGE car scene too and I am sure there are thousands of cars that wouldn't pass in texas. But in all honesty, until the govt starts helping ME out and not the jerkoffs that run my state, I could give a rats **** about emmissions, and whether it's a federal crime or not. If someone wants to cuff me and fine me because I have a huge heart for the car building hobby, then I feel very sorry for them.

 

Once the car is at operating temperature, you are correct.

The AIR pump does most of its job during warm up. the temp of the car is not taken into consideration during the emissions testing. If you let your car sit overnight at the testing place, got there right as they opened and jumped in line first.... You would most likely fail miserably.

 

Probably worth mentioning that my car was HOT during the test especially since I was driving it for 30 minutes just before. The cooling fans don't kick in regardless of temp when the car reaches a certain speed (20 mph I think), and that was the case when my car was on the rollers. Usually the fans kick in at 220 on my car, and when I got it back the temp gauge was at 230-240! They didn't have a big fan in front of it or anything during the test.

 

omg that's wayyy too hot! I run mine in between 160 to 180 MAX. Colder is better and you can run higher timing too when it's 40 to 60 degrees colder. Although, I've heard that a "hotter" running engine will emit less pollutants, not more?

 

Yeah I know, I put in a cooler thermostat (180 degree if I remember correctly; factory was 195) so it definitely helps while cruising but I haven't touched the fans yet and they still kick in at the factory set 220 degrees if the car is just sitting and running. The reason GM set the fans to kick in that high is for emissions reasons, since yes you're correct, a hotter engine is usually a cleaner one. Not that I like mine running that hot though.

 

Yeh GM did alot of silly things to pass emissions and other things. My fans kick on at 180 and cool down to 160. I have dual fans from an 89 trans am tho, but they work great.