Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Guess I'm that squirrel….

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Geez....these guys at AFR are slow to respond with their recommendation...been a week since I sent in my form.... and nothing.

Guess I'll wait through Monday, but I'll be wondering how their service after the sale will be if it's this bad beforehand??

EDIT: I was also reading the MSD 6530 instructions....you sure can do a lot of things with it, but I don't see me using half the features it has. Looks like Ill need to buy a separate 2-bar MAP sensor too....at an outrageous cost of 70 bucks!!

Ironic and sad that I currently have one of those old analog MSD's with a dial currently installed, and to make matters worse, I bought the next model up from the one I have...it also has a boost retard and dial - but with multi sparks just last spring used off EBay. I hadn't even installed that one yet!

I need to have a garage sale bad!! 2 MSD boxes, carbs, heads, intakes, distributors....even another engine and a T-5 !!!

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

And look what I found on sale no less...
http://www.jegs.com/i/Dart/301/31132...oductId=748414.

EDIT: There's also this...I can't see a big difference another than 350 mains and the price is cheaper..
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dr...1211/overview/

Damon

It's almost crazy how fast the digital stuff is obsoleting the older analog stuff, isn't it?

This is one of those places in history where the old stuff is quickly cast aside in favor of something very different. Not an evolutionary change, as is the usual way of things, but a sudden REVOLUTIONARY change.

I had the same jaw-dropping moment myself about 2 years ago. When you ask "what is the older stuff good for?" and there is no answer, you know the world has changed under your feet.

BTW- if you want an answer from AFR you need to call them. They're swamped. They'll take half of forever to answer an email, if they ever do. They're busy building azz-kicking product and letting the consumer figure out what they need from their lineup.

You want my recommendation? Buy the STREET-prepped 195s and never look back. They work on EVERYTHING from modest N/A 350s to fire-breathing turbocharged 400s. I have not found a SBC combo running in a sub-6500 RPM range they don't peg the needle on. That was true for the previous 195 and even more true for the current "Eliminator" series.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

x2. 383 all motor they worked. nitrous 383 they worked. twin turbo 400 they worked. Just flat out awesome heads for the money

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Actually I did finally receive a reply from AFR. They agree with you guys on the Street Eliminator 195's. Of course, they also add that for even more power get the race version….I'll stick with the street version though.

The reply was more of a form letter…I don't have a problem with that since I'm sure they get asked for a lot of recommendations from a lot of people. If they personalized all the replays it would take a long time.

Anyways, I noticed there are special "foot notes" for blown or nitrous applications such as tighter springs (I can see that)..and also titanium valves etc…

But I'd rather not increase the oil seal clearance on 90% street driven car. I think that may cause trouble down the road with burning oil and fouling plugs…don't want that.

So...I'm going to need to call them before ordering to make sure I have these set up properly as I'm not positive I'll need all the stuff below for the lower boost levels I'm running (6-8 pounds).

At first I intended on getting the bare heads and installing the springs off my Iron Eagles onto the AFR's, but with the additional cost of buying valves and machine work…I think my best bet is to get them assembled. Plus I can just sell the Iron Eagles as complete heads….

Cut and pasted their notes below:

Boosted/NOS Applications: We strongly recommend upgrading your springs since boosted or NOS applications accelerate the RPM so quickly, additional spring pressure is required.

Boosted/NOS Applications: We strongly recommend considering Inconel exhaust valves and AFR's optional heavy duty intake valves for high power applications.

Boosted Applications: We strongly recommend increasing your valve spring pressure since boost pressure on the valves reduces your spring tension. For example, 15 lbs on a 2.125 O.D valve reduces the springs closed seat pressure by approximately 40-50lbs.

Valve Guide Clearance: Your AFR heads come with .0125 to .0150 valve to guide clearance. Boosted/NOS application might require additional clearance.

1gary

Yep-you are getting a very,very,nice set of heads.Setting here in the cheap seats waiting to see this build's come to life.

Maybe over the yrs to see a tube frame car with the headers coming out the fenders throwing out flames running low 7's or high 6's.Who-Ha!!.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Wont need inconel on minor boost applications. I didnt run anything special in mine all the way to 17 psi

Procharged GTA

Buying the heads assembled and ready to bolt on is the best way to go. There is no need for any special inconel/titanium valves for a blown street engine, just a good standard stainless valve works plenty good... the spring upgrade would be a great idea, when it comes to valve springs, its always better to have a little more pressure than needed,than it is to not have enough. If you dont have quite enough spring pressure, the needle bearings in those hyd roller lifters wont be happy for long, because when you dont have enough spring pressure, it cannot keep the roller wheel on the cam lobe when it accelerates past max lift, and it tends to beat the valvrtrain to death, typically the needle bearings in the lifter, causing a lifter failure, so the spring upgrade would be an excellent idea IMO. For the valve guide clearance, I would make sure it had enough, but definitely make sure it isnt excessive, blower motors hate any oil that can get into the chambers from excessive guide clearance. Cant wait to see how this build comes along!!

Brian

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Thanks for the replies!

Not 100% positive this is going to be a full-on build yet or not....definitely going to be a head swap though....I think the bottom end is pretty stout as is, but I'm still considering stepping up to an aftermarket block.....

But the cost is going to soar if I do that. Sure, I'll reuse my Scat crank, rods and such...but I won't re-use my SRP forged pistons because they're for a 4.165" bore. If I used those, I'd be pretty much out of re-bores if I needed to. Let's not even get into replacing bearings, rings etc....so I'm still thinking hard about a block...plus I'd kinda like to stay married...much cheaper.

I will however, upgrade to full roller rockers also with these heads. The Comp roller tipped rockers have served me well, but since I'm getting the aluminum heads...why not?

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Silly that I didn't look at Pro-Filer till today....I was going back through this thread before I pull the trigger. They look like decent heads too...and a few hundred cheaper than AFR's set up close to what I need.

Also, just a question on the SHP block....I currently have this retro-roller 400....
Will I be able to use my Comp link bar lifters in that block along with my cam?

Also I assume I won't need steam holes any more in the heads/block if I run a SHP block?

As you can tell, I'm still pondering making this into a total engine project...

FRMULA88

Comp roller lifters should slide right in.

Correct, The SHP, Little M, etc. blocks do not have steam holes.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Sounds good then....I'd rather not have to buy standard roller lifters and still run the retro roller cam. Below is the reason I asked...off the Dart website:

One of the great features of the Dart Special High Performance (SHP) small-block is its provisions to use OEM hydraulic roller lifters.
There are mounting bosses in the valley for a factory stamped steel spider, and the lifter bores are machined flat on top to accommodate the “dog bone” alignment bars used on OEM hydraulic roller lifters. This allows an engine builder to take advantage of the fast acceleration and low maintenance of a hydraulic roller cam pro file while using inexpensive stock-type lifters.

The lifter bosses in SHP blocks are .220” taller than the bosses in early-style blocks that were not designed for hydraulic roller lifters. If you are installing aftermarket lifters with link bars in an SHP block, the lifters must be designed for use in 1987-up or Bow Tie blocks. These late-model lifters are typically .300” longer than early-style lifters.

Due to the additional length of these aftermarket tie-bar lifters, they must be installed in the block before the cylinder heads are installed.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Lifters need to be +.300" taller to work with shp block

1gary

Make sure you check the lifter bore clearances.We have run into problems with that in the past with the lifter bores needing honing.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

WHY IS IT NEVER EASY>>>

-Here's my current situation so far as my valve train setup goes:
--I'm currently running a Comp Nx276 retro roller cam. The cam is custom ground on a small base circle because I didn't want to deal with any rod clearance issues.
--So since this is a full retro-roller setup, I don't run a thrust plate on front…I have a Cloyes timing cover with an adjustable cam button.
--The retro roller lifters I have are at least 5 years old, and I "think" they're made by Crane…but I'm not positive. I don't even know how tall they are.

Why I'm even considering any aftermarket block in the first place:

--So far, it's been a good engine overall….but the last time I had my heads off, I noticed hairline cracks that extend from darn near every steam hole extending into the water jacket ports. BUT - I've had no issues with head gaskets leaking, and if I time the engine right while tuning, there's no overheating issues. But I am concerned that if I just buy this new set of AFR heads…I might have issues with these new aluminum heads sealing due to these hairline cracks in the deck. Again, I've had no issues at all so far.
--It's currently over bored .040"….I don't have any room left for any more machine work on the cylinders.

So - as I posted earlier in the thread, I want to re-use as much of my existing engine internals in a new block….how can I do that??

Here's how I see it so far:

The SHP Block negatives:
- I'll need to have my 400 mains on my current crank ground down to 350 diameter to fit the block. And no, I'd rather not purchase another forged crank with 350 mains for 700 bucks...
-If my retro-roller lifters won't work, then I'm looking at needing to get yet another 87-up cam and stock type roller lifters. I'll also need to buy a thrust plate and a different timing chain cover along with it. The cam and roller lifters will cost 475 bucks alone.

The SHP Block positives:
- Cost - At 1600 bucks, it beats all the others
-4 bolt splayed mains…not that I absolutely need them since this engine will only wind up to 6500 rpms max, but it's good insurance.
-No steam holes =no cracks…and better designed cooling jackets built in.
-Thicker cylinder walls and decks=less distortion

Then there's the "Little M" block…

Little M negatives:
Cost - it costs around 500 bucks more than the SHP..

Little M positives:
-"Seems" like I can reuse my entire valve train components..but it does mention "oversized lifter bores"…so might be a negative?
-Comes with 400 mains…no machine work needed on the crank shaft.
-Even stronger main caps…again, kinda overkill for my use, but nice
-Has all other positives the HP block has

No matter which block I would get, I'll need to change pistons since my current ones are 4.165" bore…that's the max recommended bore size for either block (SHP or Little M)…that also means re-balance on the rotating assembly.

Of course there's that "other" option….just get these heads, put them on and call it a day…and hope there's no issues.

So I'm asking for opinions before I go any further with this…

Heads - that's a done deal in my mind…AFR 195 Street Eliminators

Block - Keep what I have, or go with a Dart block…which one?

FRMULA88

You actually maxed out your STOCK 400 block with at 4.165 bore but
you can safely bore a Little M to 4.185

mine is at 4.155 to make a 421 cu in. with 3.875 stroke


So you could go 4.165 bore and still have .020 left if you need a redo.

I believe than gives you a 427... heck there are guys making 434s with these blocks.

Hopefully you do it right the first time and don't have to worry about re-boring the block.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Well, I hope I don't need to re-bore at any time! And having .020 left doesn't give me a "warm fuzzy"...

Mine won't be a 427 since the crank I have is a 3.75" stroke. So it'll be the same thing I have now, which is 408-ish cubes....

But yeah, as good as the price is on the SHP block, I might be better off with the Little M block since I can use my entire retro roller setup...

EDIT: After doing just a little research, it seems these hairline cracks from the steam holes are not a big deal. Seems it's only a big deal if the cracks extend from the bolt holes in the heads to the cylinder walls...

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

YOu can go alittle more on the SHP but it will be thin. I wouldnt power adder it to crazy levels

I think most retro lifters are taller but I'm not sure. Have to mock up and see. If not, just go LS7 lifters for cheap and convert to spider/dogbone. L98 timing cover. Works awesome.

At one time you could order a 400 main SHP block. Now they are available in 1 pc and 2 pc rear main. At the time I didnt know that and bought 2 pc and had to scrap my perfectly fine 3.75" forged crank and starter/flexplate combo. Oh well.

Lil M is overkill but only few hundred more NOt a bad investment with retro roller setup. I came from a roller L98 so I wanted to keep as much as possible. NOw I use .300 taller lifters anyway so it would never have mattered.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Get LS7 lifters and use a L98 timing cover? That would mean I would need to run a cam thrust plate on a retro roller cam...can I even do that? If so, that could be an option I suppose...I'll look at LS7 lifter prices then.

And I'd rather not "scrap" my perfectly fine forged crank....I can't afford to throw away pricey parts like that..

With the SHP block, I'm looking at machine work on the crank - plus reconfiguring or I totally changing my current retro roller setup. I guess I could take my lifters out and measure them....in order to do any kind of mock up, I'd need the block in my hands and I'm already committed.

Fact is, I'd do it if I were confident I could sell the crank and retro roller setup....but not too many people are looking for 400 main cranks or retro roller set ups nowadays...so in essence, I'd be looking at basically an entire new engine build if I go with the SHP block....I'm embarrassed to say how much I have in my current engine, so I can't justify going that route in my mind.

Then there's this Little M block....Overkill?....YES...but I CAN get that with 400 mains/2 piece rear seal, and I "think" it'll accept my retro roller setup. And yes, it will cost about 500 bucks more than the SHP....but my savings will be in keeping my roller setup/lifters and no crank machining....and it should be a bullet-proof block when it's done at my boost levels.

Winter has barely begun here, so I'm ordering the heads today, and I'll do some pricing if I choose to get one of these Dart blocks...but if I choose the Little M, I'd better do it soon since it's discounted 500 bucks right now...

Thanks for the advice Orr and others!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

If you were to go ls7 lifter and l98 cover i'd go 87-99 oem style hyd roller cam

My buddy may still have his shp block for sale. 700$ needs bored .010 over to 4.165 to clean a cylinder

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Orr - YOU'RE KILLIN ME!!

So I gotta ask…why is this fellow getting rid of the block? If it has scored up cylinders, it suffered some type of demise…anything else wrong with it? And you know I'll ask….can he come down in price any?…shipping's gonna be pricey if I would decide on this. I'm still looking up prices and such to see how much I'd have wrapped up with either block…but a good block that I could get cheaper and clean totally up with a 4.165 bore would help a bunch!

Just PM me and let me know!

In other news….I just got off the phone with AFR and one of the popular "dealers"….AFR 1036's are now on order and should be at my doorstep by the end of January. I opted to get the upgraded springs for an additional 78 bucks.

-I placed my credit card in the snow outside to let it cool off!

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

So now that the heads are on their way, I'm still thing about an aftermarket block...but it's just hard to justify right now since this stock block has held up well so far...no blow-by or any other obvious issues. Besides, If I built up an aftermarket block, I'd build it pretty much the same as I have this stock block.... with the Total Seal gap less rings ( love them), forged internals etc. Only change I might consider is going with 6" h-beam rods.

And IF this engine gave up on me, I actually have a "back-up" engine sitting in the garage...my original L69 305. It's been sitting on a stand for a few years. About once every couple months I shoot some Sta-bil fogger in each cylinder and rotate the crank a 1/2 turn to make sure everything stays loose and freed up. It's fully rebuilt, .030 over with original stock rebuilt 916 heads, and stock crank, KB hyper pistons.

I only have maybe 6K miles max on the engine before I pulled it out in favor for the 400 I'm running now. Back then, I still ran the CCC Q-jet carb on it along with the original ECM. It actually ran great for what it was.

Don't think I haven't wondered how this little 305 would run with 6 pounds of boost on it. Sure, I'd lose some torque and a little HP...but I think it would still make for a fun little engine.

Before I ramble on any further, AFR seems to recommend using full roller rockers with these heads vice the roller tipped rockers I run now. Looks like the " Original" Harland Sharps are a decent deal....after doing a search it seems like others like them. What about Scorpion rockers?

Any recommendations?

Procharged GTA

You definitely cant go wrong with Harland Sharps, thats all we run on our street stuff when using aluminum roller rockers, they are among the best aluminum roller rockers on the market. Good to see you got the AFR's ordered, I think you will love them, they are a peice of art. Although I havent had any experience with the Scorpion rockers, there are mixed opinions, I have read about people having problems with them cracking over on the pontiac forum, PY Forum. Others have had good look with them, but in my personal opinion, I would go with the Harland Sharps and not take any chances, once again, its one of those products that have proven themselves time after time.

Brian

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Thanks Brian. Looks like Harland Sharps it is!! Again, I haven't heard any real negatives on the Harland's in my searches.

Procharged GTA

Your welcome! Anytime bud! Glad to help....

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Say.....what do you guys think about this block:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/wr...make/chevrolet

I'm really diggin that this one can be over bored to 4.2" whereas the Dart says it can only be over bored to 4.185".....but I've never dealt with anything from World Products....

Nodular Iron 4 bolt main caps should work fine for my power level and rpm range correct?

Procharged GTA

The Motown block sounds great, but I have seen one of those crack in the main webs. A guy that used to run in our local Drag Radial class with us built a 434 sbc with a Motown, he had a fogger nitrous system on it, so it was making quite alot of power, probably in the 11-1200hp range, but it cracked in the main web, and I think it may be a problem that quite a few have had and here is why, the Motown uses 1/2" main bolts, which sound good, but using the bigger 1/2" bolts makes the main webbing thinner around the bolts, and this causes the cracking issues. So unless they have changed something, I would go with the trusty Dart. In my opinion, the Dart looks like a better casting to the eye also. We have the Dart Iron Eagle in our Drag Radial car in my sig below, couldnt ask for a nicer cast iron block, but I dont think I would run the Iron Eagle on the street, atleast not the raised deck/raised cam like ours, it requires custom headers, intake spacers, and a special timing chain. I might would run the Iron Eagle that is the standard deck/standard cam location, but that kinda defeats the purpose of using the Iron Eagle for larger small blocks, because you can only fit so much crank and rod in a standard deck/standard cam block. Also do note that ALL Iron Eagles use a remote oil filter, they have no oil filter provision on the block. For your build I would opt for either the SHP or the Little M, and since the SHP isn't available with 400 mains, I would go with the Little M instead of grinding your crank down, and all you need are the Nodular caps, they are good to 1200hp, above that, I would go billet.

Brian

1gary

Expect to pay at least the cost of the block to finish it out.Big stroke/bore blocks will need expensive Mallory to balance it.You do very much want to make it a internal balance.The Harland Sharp company doesn't have shelf inventory,so orders take 4 to 6 wks and a additional 4 wks for steel.Which I do recommend ordering steel shaft rockers.Replacement parts are going to be in the same vein.Now Jessel isn't like that.In fact they have a two day turn time.For sure their system is top notch.

Procharged GTA

I have to disagree with it costing the price of the block to finish it, with a Dart block anyway, and if he uses his current rotating assembly, he already has the balancing out of the way, so no expensive mallory needed this go around. He can call Summit Racing right up and order those Harland Sharp aluminum rockers, as they usally always keep those in stock for small blocks. The Jesel shaft rockers are definitely top notch, as that is what we run on our radial car in my sig below, but I do believe that T&D shaft rockers are the best available, but none of these shaft setups are needed for his build, this is just a good ol' high performance street build, he is not going to have an enormous amount of lift, the lobes aren't going to be that agressive (when compared to a solid rollers ramps). Just a good 7/16" ARP stud and the Harland Sharp aluminum stud mount rocker setup is all that he needs with this buildup.

RyanJB

For your block I would probably just pick whichever one has the lowest conversion cost overall. DART is a good company and they make good products, you won't be going wrong with either of their blocks. World makes good products as well, you won't be going wrong with their block either.

Personally, I'd be cringing at the thought of grinding down a $700 crank so I could use am aftermarket block. I'd imagine the cost of having it ground down would end up covering a pretty decent amount of the $500 difference between the two blocks.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I have heard a few horror stories with world products i would stick to the dart.

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

your block can have the lifter boss turned down to fit the reg/size hight lifters.
also check to see what block has the better oiling. like in the BT GM blocks

ya can also geet good deals on used GM BT blocks ($1000)
i have picked up some used Nascar Used blocks for cheap...

1gary

I was talking about a new rotating assembly with a 4" stroke/pistons for longer rods and a bore size that a GM block couldn't handle.

Procharged GTA

Oh!! Gotcha Gary, I misread it!! Sorry about that....

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Again, many thanks to all that replied!…and Happy Holidays to all!

Brian - Thanks for the heads-up on the Motown block having 1/2" mains studs vice the standard size. I can see where that might weaken the web area. I totally missed that when I was looking at it. I'd most likely never break it there, but I'm looking for the best block I can get for the $$, so that takes it out of contention for me.

Gary - Like Procharged said, I'm really in the market for just a good 'ole street performance engine. The reality is, I already have that, but I'm considering going on the upcoming Hod Rod Power Tour…so the ONLY reason I'm considering building with another block is for better reliability. Even though this stock 509 casting .040 over bored stock block has done pretty well, I have a hard time trusting it for such a long trip…it might do fine but I'd be afraid to push it on track day. I just got the AFR heads because I know theres a little bit more performance to be had over my current Dart IE heads.

It would be kinda neat to go all out with it to see what kind of 1/4 mile times it would pull. But I've never ran the 1/4 mile..ever. Plus, I would like to take it to the track in the future for "Test-n-Tune days" just for fun. Good call on possibly going with steel rockers though…I did a little searching after you posted that, and all pretty much say they're more reliable…but the initial cost is higher of course. I'd only consider a shaft mounted rocker if I were real serious about racing the car all the time.

Arctic - I'm trying to stick with my current retro-roller setup since as you know, that setup doesn't come cheap and I hate tossing perfectly good parts aside…trying to avoid that.

Ryan - I think you know where I'm trying to go with an aftermarket block if I choose to get one. I don't want to go through the expense of grinding down crankshafts, lifter bosses, buying specialized all out race parts to do this. If I'm not careful with what I choose, I'll end up basically assembling an entire new engine and chucking all my old stuff.

The Dart Little M seems to be the ticket so far….I really wish their SHP blocks came with 400 mains, but they don't. The thread I posted earlier has a Little M block on "Special"….normally 2700 bucks on sale for 2100 bucks. And it happens to have steel main caps. I don't really need them, but I can get it as cheap as the other Dart block with nodular iron caps, so why not?

I plan on going to my local machine shop…I know the owner pretty well and he knows me by name. I plan to discuss what machine work will run me if I opt to grind the crank down, overbore to 4.165" honing cylinders etc…plus he can get me all the parts I need at dealer cost too.

I may end up just taking my SRT on the Power Tour while I go over the engine in the Camaro….The Challenger is an awesome car, don't get me wrong…470 HP/TQ…it's a beast and has all the creature comforts too...but let's face it, anyone can go out and buy one. I built my Z28 from the ground up. -And it gets A LOT more attention - and sucks gas like a banshee!

Procharged GTA

Your welcome confuzed! You cant beat $2100 for a new Little M with billet caps, thats a great deal! I hear the Darts are gonna take a price jump after the beginning of the year, but that's just hearsay so far.... as far as the steel rockers go, they are the most rugged, but in all reality, the aluminum rockers will last forever on s build like this, it really comes down to personal preference. It would be awesome to see some 1/4 performance out of your car, or at least 1/8 mile!!

On a side note, I replied to your carburetor thread up in the aftermarket section also, just incase you didnt see it...

Brian

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Block is now ordered!!

I replied on the post in the Aftermarket section....

Just for the heck of it, I called Summit because they claim that they have a "Beat-A-Price" guarantee. I looked over their guidelines, and it seemed the Dart block applied....so I called them.

I told them the price JEGS asked for the block on their website, so the customer service rep verified it, and he said "yep...you're right"...

So he said he could sell me one for........WAIT FOR IT.............

ONE DOLLAR CHEAPER !!!!! He then asked if I was ready to order! I told him as enticing as his discount was, I think I'll buy it off their competitor...

These guys really failed big time....

Anyway, I plan to begin getting all the other things together like rings, gaskets etc and talk to the machine shop about how much it'll cost to finish bore/hone the new block.

Procharged GTA

Haha!!! one dollar on a $2100 purchase? WOW!! LOL. I'm glad to hear you got the block ordered, it sure will give you piece of mind knowing that you don't have to worry about the block splitting and dumping your good internals into the highway... You will now have a very stout foundation already ready for that TVS 2300 down the road huh? you've got an awesome build getting ready to go together here, Dart block, forged internals, roller cammed,AFR heads, Magnuson supercharged, and I can't wait to follow along! Should be a very, very stout, but simple street combination.

Brian

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

Good luck on your build. Are you going with the 195s? Did you talk to the guy on the afrs I sent you? Take care

1gary

I do think the Dart blocks are pretty stable,but for the pc of mind to finish bore/hone with torque plates,it couldn't hurt to use them.

BTW-nice build plan.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

I always tell the machine shop to use a torque plate when doing any boring on my blocks...period. I know he uses one on any engine he does any boring or honing on...it's a decent shop, but he ain't cheap!

IROCZ1989: Actually, no I didn't use your reference for the heads because you pretty much said there would be little if any savings...that's fine because they're ordered and on their way...

Brian: I'm pretty sure if I ever get a TVS 2300 blower, it'll go on the Challenger...should make close to 600 HP on the 392!!

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Well, got a call from the shipping company about the Dart block today...it'll be arriving sometime between 10am and 2pm. What I didn't realize is these Dart blocks are almost 60 pounds heavier than stock blocks....around 200 pounds!! And yeah, it actually does say 205 pounds on the website I found out...

Spoke to the machine shop today...gonna set me back even more $$$....bore,hone with torque plate, final wash, install cam bearings and freeze plugs...but I kinda knew the added expense was coming.

So OK, I lied...this really is turning out to be a whole build...

I REALLY hope everything is in great shape when I take my existing engine apart. At least if I order the remaining parts from the machine shop, like the bearings, rings etc. I might get them a little cheaper...

I'll also be ordering the roller rockers from him (through the shop) most likely, but I know earlier I said I was getting the Harland Sharp originals, but I'm seeing Comp ultra pro magnum rockers for about 80 bucks more than the Harland's...on fleabay at least. Would steel rockers be that much more reliable over aluminums?

Procharged GTA

Yeah, the Dart does weigh a fair amount more than a factory block do to its substantial increase in strength,much more sturdy. In regards to the rockers, the steel rockers would be more rigid, they will not work harden like aluminum tends to do. You shouldn't ever have a problem with the aluminum Harland with a street applications valve spring pressures, they should last next to forever, and the steel rockers definitely will. Now, I would not even think about saying that about some of those cheapo aluminum rockers out there,there are honestly some JUNK parts that a person's money can be throwed away on,but the Harlands are made from high quality USA made extrusions. Both, Comp Cam Ultra Pro steel, and Harland Sharp aluminum are extremely high quality parts, and both of them are awful purty . Really it all comes down to personal preference. If I were doing this build, I would choose the Harland Sharps and put the extra 80 buck the steel rockers cost to offset the machine work, or put it towards the bearings...but in the end it's totally up to you.... hope this helps!

Brian

Damon

I'll second the Harland Sharps being a quality product. The're one of those rocker arms you don't hear much about, mostly because they just keep working and eventually you don't think about them much any more. I've used them in several solid lifter applications (flat tappet) and have NEVER seen a crack appear in one of them yet, nor have I ever had an outright failure of either the roller tip, pushrod cup area or the fulcrum. I can't say the same for the Summit house-brand cheapies which get cracks near the roller tip fulcrum like you're in some parts-eating nightmare. I've replaced FIVE of the sixteen so far on the mild big block in my truck and the cam is really nothing to write home about. Proof? OK, here's what cheap gets you after only a couple thousand miles:





Engine was still running like a top, no valvetrain noise or any tell-tale sign of problems. But you can imagine the catastrophic failure that was waiting for me just down the road if I kept running them much longer. The high end steel body roller rockers are also VERY nice, but they should be for the price.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Damon - Wow! Thanks for the insight!

I wasn't even considering any of the cheaper ones like KMC or the like for exactly that reason....or having one let loose with needle bearings all over my engine!

Brian- I guess the only reason I was considering the steels was because I got the upgraded stronger springs with the heads...and it's a retro-roller setup so it runs heavy springs in the first place. Sounds like the Harland Sharps are a good rocker though, so I'll take your advice and throw the bucks at the machine work.

On another note...the block arrived today!

Procharged GTA

How much open pressure your springs gonna have? Block arrived today? We want pics!!! LOL

1gary

Every company makes claims they are "as good as".........................Jesel for a very good reason.The steel Jesels's are just the best true shaft rocker out there.Period!!.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Brian - I really tried looking up the spring pressure for AFR's optional springs 8605, but it's not on their website. I found some other thread that says the actual part number is 8019 which is on AFRs site:
*AFR-8019
1.270 OD 155# @1.810 Premium Grade Chrome Silicon 1.080 428 650 7000-7200 RPM
Hydraulic Roller
Red Stripe .645 ID 412# @ 1.210 PAC Racing Springs

I have no idea how to read the above really...does it mean 412 pounds at 1.210 lift?? How is that useful info? I assume a spec sheet will be packed with the heads so I'll need to look that over. I just hope these won't cause any issues.

-And sure, I can take a pic of the neat packaging the block arrived in! I've not taken it out of the box yet....

Procharged GTA

It means that they will have 412 lbs at .600" lift and 155 lbs of seat pressure at the 1.810" installed height. You take the installed height of 1.810" and subtract the 1.210" advertised open pressure and that leaves .600" lift, so the advertised 412 lbs open pressure is at .600" lift. So if you don't have quite .600" lift, it will have less open pressure, or if you have more than .600", you would have more pressure. The same calculations are used for coil bind of a given spring. I believe that 1.080" number in your post above is coil bind for your springs.So if your springs setup at a 1.810" installed height and have a 1.080 coil bind, they would lift to .730" lift, but the spring would be stacked solid together, we can't have that, so we have to allow .060" clearance (.010" per coil), so in reality, these spring could be safely ran with .670" lift without any coil bind, assuming it would have sufficient retainer to valve seal clearance. 1.810 installed height - 1.080 coil bind = .730" max lift - .060" clearance =.670" lift. The "428" number in your post above will be spring rate (lbs/sq. In.) The "650" number is their max recommended safe lift (usually always on the conservitive side, hence my safe .670" calculation). The PAC springs are awesome springs! Hope this helps and isn't to confusing!

BTW, the Harland Sharps won't even break a sweat at these pressures, they are plenty good for at least 700 lbs open pressure, I've heard of people running over 800 with them.....

Brian