Originally Posted by GeneralDisorder

Perhaps I will look into the sunnen models. I'm not against a better design. Or spending money on tools.

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Originally Posted by GeneralDisorder

Ok so reading your post - forgive my ignorance on the Sunnen design but when I'm measuring bearing inserts I always want to see that eccentricity to insure it is even. I generally check it on a 45 degree to the thrust direction to insure that the alignment of the caps is not shifted. If the Sunnen design ignores this them how would I see a potentially catastrophic bearing cap alignment issue. Granted it would shrink the thrust measurement but it's very hard to tell which direction the cap has shifted without checking the 45's.

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Originally Posted by cardo0

Over $200 to alignhone and it moves the crank higher in the block which inturn loosens the timing chain. I can read you don't understand that and doubt you know how check the crank for a poor alignment either. Once the rods are off and before you touch the main caps all you need to do is check and see if you can rotate the crank by hand. If it moves freely by had it should be good. Alignhoning a crank that turns freely by had is waisting your money and giving you a sloppy timing chain also. But the choice is yours.

Just because you came across a bargain doesn't mean anyone else will. And the vortec heads are iron BTW which are some 40lbs heavier as a pair. Even though they flow better on the intake side they don't flow as well on the exhaust while giving up a whole number of compression using pump gas. Cheap press in studs to.

Sorry man just because your ideas will work doesn't mean someone else can't have as good or better ideas.. Alignhoning is only fundamental to the machine shop taking your money. Some machine shops will tell they do all the machine work you can think of whether they can do it or do it correctly or not.

Like why would I have the assembly balanced when I can match weights? I owned and drove the motor for some 50k mi to 75k mi and vibration was never a problem. Is it gonna go bad now that all the new parts weigh the same as the originals? This is a rebuild not a full race motor. It's gonna mostly cruise to work and back with a few full throttle moments now and then. Alignhoning and balancing is only gonna make me $500 poorer.

Merry Christmas.

Originally Posted by NoEmissions84TA

What do you do when you have to replace your tires? I'll bet you go to Town Fair Tire with your bathroom scale and weigh every tire in the building so that you don't have to mess with the balance weights on your rims.

Originally Posted by NoEmissions84TA

What do you do when you have to replace your tires? I'll bet you go to Town Fair Tire with your bathroom scale and weigh every tire in the building so that you don't have to mess with the balance weights on your rims.

Originally Posted by cardo0

Now he admits he's not sure how or what to measure clearances with while he wants to bad mouth my thread on replacing rods and pistons.

Originally Posted by GeneralDisorder

Exactly. You can buy 40k mile tires and get 10k out of them because of improper installation. Same goes for an overhaul. You can get 100k, or you can get 20k. It's all about the machining, and cleanliness of assembly. Problem with a stock engine is that GM does thing like honing the cam line with the bearing inserts installed, and they will throw all kinds of random main bearing insert sizes in them to correct for the poor main line bore. If you don't correct these issues, and just throw in a set of bearings without taking these factory assembly inconsistencies into account - you'll get about 20k on average and then it will be done.

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Originally Posted by HINKSON AUTO

GM does not line hone cam tunnels with bearings installed, They are line bore with cam bearing installed. Big difference between the two.

Originally Posted by GeneralDisorder

No. You see I'm willing to listen and entertain that there might be a better tool for a job. I know perfectly well how to measure clearances and I'll wager I've built quite a few more engines than you. Successfully I might add. I do this every day at my 5 star rated repair shop.

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Originally Posted by cardo0

First lie is your saying I'm your friend. Next you criticize using using plastigage and was easily proven wrong.

Originally Posted by GeneralDisorder

How am I "proven" wrong. This is a discussion of opinions and real world experiences in a very grey area dependant on many factors. Plastigauge is junk IMO. It can't measure the clearances in modern aluminium block engines. It isn't available that small. Additionally it's not able to show the changes in clearance as you move away from the thrust and toward the parting line. It is, at BEST, a secondary check after proper machining or checking with real measuring tools. And frankly my measuring tools are working for me just fine. I am willing to look at possibly *better* tools than what I'm using. Always willing to improve. But I have confidence and capability with my Starrett bore gauges regardless as many other people do. Can I measure down to one tenth? No, and that's not really required for 99% of engine builds.



You don't get it. All of us are trying to save you money. By not doing it twice you will save a LOT of money and time.



NEVER said I was a machinist. I rely on a good machine shop. I double check his work as any good mechanic assembling an engine should do. But I am aware of, and have experienced, what happens when you ignore these critical operations. I've thought I could get away with not having blocks lined honed and been rewarded with failure caused by my desire to "save money" and in the end it saved nothing and cost me a LOT more money.

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Originally Posted by GeneralDisorder

I agree completely.

Remember I'm NOT the machinist - I'm only using my bore gauges to check the work one last time before assembly. I'm not using them to do any machine work whatsoever.

All the engines I do are torque plate bored and honed (if they are getting bored). Absolutely critical for proper ring seal.

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Originally Posted by GeneralDisorder

I know very well how to use my tools, thank you. I have used plastigauge and found it to be insufficient. And my micrometers are in excellent working order - though we were not speaking of them till your last post. Do you even own a micrometer? Or a bore gauge? Or just an old bathroom scale and a tape measure?

You clearly have no clue about building engines and are going to do whatever you wish regardless. You aren't willing to listen, acquire the correct tools, or have the appropriate machine work done. You will be lucky to get a few tens of thousands out of your build. When you do that first oil change and see the metallic swirl in the oil you'll convince yourself it's "normal" - but you'll know deep inside that it's not, and you'll think of me - and how I told you that would happen. That lesson will be hard - and I'm sorry you have to go through that. But such is life I guess.

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Originally Posted by HINKSON AUTO

If your using junk bore gauges then I would have to say plastigague is more accurate.

Originally Posted by GeneralDisorder

It does not work well for most of my applications. When you are measuring aluminium block clearances it doesn't measure small enough. Some of the engines have a main bearing spec of .0004 to .0014 and plastigauge is unreadable at those small numbers. Also when dealing with a split block engine where half the case is your "bearing cap".... It's virtually useless.

I do believe the Sunnen indicators are likely better, but plastigauge certainly does not work at all so my existing bore gauges are doing alright - I am very careful and get repeatable results that agree with the sheet I have from the machine shop.

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Originally Posted by HINKSON AUTO

Your bore gauges would not work against my Sunnen bore gauges either.

Been there done that.

Originally Posted by GeneralDisorder

You only want confirmation that you don't need to spend any money to have anything checked, balanced, or machined prior to replacing rotating assembly components. This is simply foolish and you don't want to hear why. The vast majority of everyone that has posted in your thread has recommended against this yet you continue to seek confirmation and to discredit those of us that aare trying to help you.

I never claimed to be a machinist. There is a world of difference between knowing why machining operations are important and having the tools to actually perform them. The VAST MAJORITY of technicians rely on outsourcing machine work to a specialized engine machine shop. This is nothing new. But most mechanics and technicians - even amateur ones such as yourself - realize the importance of these operations.

You'll see. You'll be another of the poster's that comes here wondering why their build is making noises, metal, burning oil, and had an excessively short life.

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Originally Posted by cardo0

Well I don't want some shop boy to tell me I need to alignhone a block that ran for over 100k mi and was pulled because of low compression in one cylinder - nothing to do with crank or bearings. And I hear the same shop boy tell me I can't find replacement pistons to match the one that came out, again nothing was wrong with the motor balance for over 100k mi. So what if I have to buy a couple of oversized bearings. That doesn't mean I'm gonna buy a whole set of oversized bearings when I only need one or two - like some pin head did. What sorry azz advice. No wonder his profile is empty. But then again how do tell others your a shop boy that is a real good second checker.

Originally Posted by GeneralDisorder

You're absolutely right. I am the shop boy. That's what happens when you own the dang shop. When there is no one else to do that oil change and no lift available you go out there in the rain and do it yourself in the parking lot. That's part of taking care of the customer and ultimately all of the customers are my personal responsibility. I don't have to defend my quality of work or customer satisfaction - my 5 star reviews and word of mouth do this for me.

But you wouldn't understand any of this, just as you don't understand the nature of a proper engine build. You attack the person not the argument - what does that say? It says you don't have any way to refute the argument so you attempt to deflect and attack the straw man (me). Your pathetic attempts to discredit me only serve to show that you don't have any real data to prove your side with. Go ahead and keep fooling yourself because you aren't fooling anyone here.

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Originally Posted by HINKSON AUTO

You don't think after a 100,000 miles that block does not change, You have a lot to learn about OEM blocks.

Originally Posted by HINKSON AUTO

You don't think after a 100,000 miles that block does not change, You have a lot to learn about OEM blocks.

Here is a pic of a block that the builder said was fine and after 400 miles this is what the bearings looked like. Being an OEM block GM machine is not that good and after thousands of heat cycles main line alignment will change i have seen it to many times.

Originally Posted by GeneralDisorder

You're absolutely right. I am the shop boy. That's what happens when you own the dang shop. When there is no one else to do that oil change and no lift available you go out there in the rain and do it yourself in the parking lot. That's part of taking care of the customer and ultimately all of the customers are my personal responsibility. I don't have to defend my quality of work or customer satisfaction - my 5 star reviews and word of mouth do this for me.

But you wouldn't understand any of this, just as you don't understand the nature of a proper engine build. You attack the person not the argument - what does that say? It says you don't have any way to refute the argument so you attempt to deflect and attack the straw man (me). Your pathetic attempts to discredit me only serve to show that you don't have any real data to prove your side with. Go ahead and keep fooling yourself because you aren't fooling anyone here.

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Originally Posted by HINKSON AUTO

You don't think after a 100,000 miles that block does not change, You have a lot to learn about OEM blocks.

Here is a pic of a block that the builder said was fine and after 400 miles this is what the bearings looked like. Being an OEM block GM machine is not that good and after thousands of heat cycles main line alignment will change i have seen it to many times.

Originally Posted by GeneralDisorder

I too have experienced this. And when it's run after this "rebuild" without mainline honing you get a bunch of metallic swirl in the oil from the top layers of bearing material being removed almost immediately as the junk clearances itself. And all over the internet people claim this is "normal"..... Well how come you don't see it on new cars then eh? I don't get this on my engines. The 500 mile break in oil comes out just like it left the bottle.

I see mainlines that are crazy out of whack (especially aluminum blocks). Heat cycling and constant loading cycles deforms the block AND deforms the old bearing inserts. You can't buy pre-deformed, squished, and wiped bearing inserts to put it back the way it was prior. It's just never works. You can let it "run in" and make a bunch of metal and you might get kinda lucky and the wear will plateau and keep going like that for quite a while. But it will never be right and will have low oil pressure and be a dog of an engine. Leading to a short life.

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Originally Posted by HINKSON AUTO

I build a lot of 604 circle track engines and after a season of running they need an align hone. Line honing always brings the imperfections of line boring.