CindyL I messaged you again this morning, I will be at the shop today and can video the whole engine for you, I pulled it complete on the k-frame so everything is on it. I have a LOT of what you need or looking for.

 

Thanks again for the responses. Been sort of slow going. Hard to spend anytime in the garage bc of the northeast weather. Learning how to use the volt meter is an ongoing process. Thought I learned a little then looked at the instructions in the FSM on how to test the MAP, and realized I didn't have a clue. Anyhow, I think I am fresh out of questions for now. We should be able to pick up the rebuilt carb this week, and I have a number of additional parts to get. Then I am thinking I might wait until mid March to have the work done. It is just too darn cold--things tend to break or snap off more easily.--like my hanging door handle. I will let you know if I have any more questions, and will keep you posted once we start the repairs. Hopefully all goes well, but I know getting some troubleshooting advice from third gen'ers would be very helpful. Thanks again for all the help so far.

 

Yeah, I hate the cold, so I don't work on my car during winter. I see so many videos on YouTube of guys working on cars in the cold, but it's not for Me...

 

I knew once I said I had no more questions-one would pop up. Is there a way to test the vapor canister valve--the flying saucer looking thing, about 6-8 inches away from the canister. Think I might have gotten a dud.

 

Not sure, but isn’t that the cruise control if equipped. Also there is a vacuum storage can down below the inner fender ( on driver side) and above the fender skirt, at least my 86 Iroc has that.

 

If you have the original hood on the car with the emissions sticker, you will see the routing of all the vacuum lines for the EGR, AIR, EVAP and EVE and you will see the two TVS vacuum switches. You have to be careful because GM strategically placed some vacuum "TEE" fittings to supply vacuum to various circuits so if your plan is to take everything apart to repair/replace, you must follow the schematic on this decal perfectly. And, if you are deleting any features, you must cap off any unused connections on the carb or in the lines to avoid vacuum leaks. These leaks could effect performance and make the features you want to keep not work properly.

 

Just thought I would give you all a quick update. Took the car to a mechanic to have the original intake manifold and carburetor (rebuilt) reinstalled on my car, along with numerous other related parts. The related parts include reinstalling a new negative backpressure EGR, new oxygen sensor, new knock sensor, new spark plugs, new TVS in intake manifold, new mixture control solenoid connector, new throttle position sensor connector, new distributor cap, cover and rotor, new TV cable (sold as and stamp marked with oem number). Also got an oem air cleaner and breather tube from a couple of very nice third genners (also got a number of other parts from one of the gentlemen, who was taking apart a 1986 Camaro IROC, and those parts were invaluable, like the original hose connector to the EGR Solenoid, and the check valve from the CCV to carb, the spacer for the EGR--great stuff!).. Also got nos valve covers so they look as nice as my rebuilt carb and repainted air cleaner. Gave him all the hoses to and from carb and CCV, all marked as to where they go, along with al new gaskets for carb, distributor, EGR valve, Water Neck. As you may recall, this is all in an effort to get the car to pass emissions (and to be honest I wanted to go back to original setup anyhow). As an aside he will also be looking at the brakes, bc the mechanic before this one tried to do a quick fix on the right rear brake bc he said it was dripping oil/grease on the drum/shoe causing it to fail the dmv brake portion of inspection; however that fix caused the car to vibrate a bit at about 40 mph, and very bad vibration and pulling hard to the right when braking. I have great hope all of this work and I can finally get the car back on the road. It has now been with the mechanic for three weeks. Fingers crossed!! I wanted to again thank you all for all of your help. I learned so much.

 

I hope it all works out well...

 

Sounds to me like you don't need a mechanic, you need some wrenches!

 

I'm back. The mechanic has finally started working on the car, and I have a couple of questions. He says he put the Q-jet back on, and he thinks the carb gasket is binding up the throttle linkage. More specifically he said he thinks the carb gasket is binding up the throttle plates. Also said he had run into this before. Anybody ever have that happen?? Attached is a pic of the gasket I gave him.



Also, he is wondering what the EGR Solenoid is supposed to attach to, he says its just hanging there. I told him I thought it had been connected to something when we dropped the car off--just can't remember what? Just as a reminder this is a 1986 Firebird, 8cyl, 305, carb'ed LG4 engine.
Sorry about the picture size--can someone enlighten me as to how to make them smaller, but not tiny. As always thanks for any and all help.

 

the throttle blades could be handing up on the gasket but more likely the throttle shaft bores are worn and causing the hang. \\

with the primary throttles open slightly there should be no noticeable fore and aft movement of the primary shaft.

there should be a small bracket that the solenoid attaches to, maybe 1.5 inches long?

 

Thanks for the response naf. Just read a little bit about the throttle shaft--just to figure out what you were referring to. You learn something new everyday!. So, we did have the carb rebuilt. Can you tell me whether normally, the throttle shaft is replaced or cleaned, or new bushings put in when a carb is rebuilt. Also the mechanic mentioned the choke thermostat. Again, the question is---is a new thermostat normally put on in a carb rebuild. Just trying to figure out whether we can likely rule out any problems with the throttle shaft, and the thermostat. I suppose we could call the carb guy who rebuilt it, but it has been months since he rebuilt it, and probably won't remember one way or another. Thanks again for the help naf.

 

CindyL Check This Post For The EGR Sloeniod Location

EGR Solenoid for carb engines - Third Generation F-Body Message Boards

 

Pics show an Edelbrock Performer EPS intake manifold.
She previously had an Edelbrock 1406 carb on it.
Does that manifold have the flange to work with a spread-bore carb like the Q-Jet?

I think she now has a spread-bore carb on a square-flange manifold. That ain't gonna work.
CindyL, what is the number on your intake manifold?

 

The carb on the car is/was an edelbrock 1406 and the intake manifold is/was an edelbrock 2701. I say is/was bc we are (or the mechanic is) in the process of hopefully reinstalling the original GM intake manifold and the original quadrajet. Things are not going as smooth as we had hoped. The mechanic said one of the manifold bolts was stripped, the electric choke may need to be replaced, and as stated above, thinks the carb gasket is causing the throttle plate to hang up, among other things (have read naf's thought on the throttle shaft bushing, and am thinking if that's the problem maybe Cliffs High Performance throttle shaft bushing rebuild kit may be the answer). Anyhow, the whole spread bore/square bore thing is not an issue, unless we are unable to use the original intake manifold, or the original carb for some reason. Thanks for the thought though.

 

easy enough to check the throttle bore for play. take the spring off and see if it will move with it held open slightly. -if it's closed the blade will be tight in the bore and you won't feel it move.

usually only the driver's side primary bushing needs to be replaced.

a rebuild won't necessarily come with a new choke thermostat.

 

Quick question: Do you need to drop transmission pan to install tv cable---and yes naf, understand thermostat is not in that rebuild kit.

 

No, you do not drop the pan to replace TV cable, however you may need to drop the transmission down a few inches to access it. Make sure you disconnect the speedo cable and remove the distributor cap to allow room to drop it down...

 

Another quick question: The mechanic can't find the oxygen sensor wire. My oxygen sensor is located on the drivers side. It heads up to just above the valve cover and then towards the front of the engine (front of carb). He can't find the end that comes from the ecm. Does anyone know if its in one of the large wire looms and which one?

 

should come out of the same loom as the TPS and MCS wires. it crosses the driver's side VC to go to the sensor

 

Thanks naf, always helpful. He says he figured it out--saying he got confused bc he believes the sensor was originally on passenger side, but got moved to drivers side when PO installed the aftermarket headers. Anyhow, while I have your ear (if I still do) you had mentioned play in the throttle bore---I have purchased a used quadrajet to rebuild (same carb #as the one on my car) to try and help me understand the various components and how it works (in midst of reading Ruggles book and then will read the FSM on the E4ME). When you say play in the bore--can you tell me if any degree of play warrants the bushing replacement. That is, on this used qjet,it moves maybe a 1/32 of an inch back and forth, not so much up and down. Honestly, am thinking I'll try the bushing replacement, just for the learning experience, but would that little play warrant the bushing replacement. Thanks again.

 

The O2 sensor has always been on the driver-side on these cars. The harness it connects to runs through the passenger-side fender apron and kick panel to the ECM...

 

At ~ 0.030" of play in the throttle shaft, that allows more than enough movement to bind throttle plates and/or prevent reliable and repeatable closure of the throttles. That would have a significant effect on tuning at idle and low RPM, and the TPS and mixture control could struggle with that.

If you only do the primary shaft it will usually solve most (if not all) of the problems. Moreover, unless something really unusual has occurred, only the outboard bore on the linkage/belcrank side would need to be replaced.

 

I'm back again---with no good news. Stopped by the mechanic today, and although he has the car back together it is running rough. Just to refresh your memories--we had the original qjet and intake manifold put back on the car, along with new plugs, wires, cap, rotor, oxygen sensor, egr valve, pcv valve, and more, in an effort to finally get the car to pass emissions. The car starts but runs rough. The mechanic believes there is a significant air leak in our carburetor. Once the car warms up, it will not idle. It just sputters and dies. He says that when he blocks the carburetor air intake (puts his hand over the top of the carb) (before it sputters and dies), the engine revs about 1000 rpm (idle increases). He says that is evidence of an internal carburetor air leak. As a last resort, he plans to adjust the mixture control valve and says that there is a chance that is the problem rather than an air leak. But if that doesn’t work, he thinks we may need to replace the carburetor.



We had the carburetor professionally rebuilt before we gave it to our mechanic to install. So we think the carb rebuilder would have told us if there was an internal air leak that would compromise the operability of the carburetor. Also, among other things, the carb rebuilder replaced the bushings on the throttle linkage, so that should not be the source of an air leak.



We would appreciate any thoughts or insight into what might be happening here. Thanks as always.

 

I know, I know. The above post was bad. First wondered whether I should just start a new post in the carb forum, or on this one--given its all related to the whole carb and intake reinstall and emissions system. Second, how are you all supposed to help without any specifics, like was the car cold or warm, what exactly was it doing, are there any error codes. Sorry, I had just gotten back from the mechanics and was a bit spooked. He's had the car for four and a half months, and it sounded so bad. Really wish we had just done the work ourselves, but we have little to no experience (but have been reading and learning a lot in the past year, on this forum and with the FSM and Ruggins book on qjets). As for the specifics, I really didn't have any. Don't know if it was cold or warm, any error codes, etc.

Anyhow, let me ask something a bit more specific. The mechanic kept saying it idled really rough once warmed up a bit. He started the car, it idled very roughly, and then he starting moving the choke flap a lot to keep it running. He said he thought there was a big air leak in the carb and it may be internally cracked. He would then put his hand about an inch above the carb (restricting air flow) and the idle increased. He said that indicated an air leak. So here's the question. Could a bad oxygen sensor, or an oxygen sensor that is there but is not wired correctly cause these symptoms. I ask that because we had a very confusing conversation about the oxygen sensor. He said he couldn't find the end of the oxygen sensor wire; however we labelled it and zip tied it just above the valve cover when we gave him the car and remember it then went in front of the carb and then into a wire pack.. Also, later he said he figured it out, saying he realized the sensor was originally on the passenger side: however, as T.L. said, it was always on the driver side. So, again if he somehow wired the oxygen sensor wrong, could it cause a very rough idle, especially when car is warmed up. I think I know the answer (yes) but before suggesting it to the mechanic (who's been doing this for 35 years or more) I thought I would get the firebird gurus thoughts. Also, would adjusting the mixture control valve, as he is planning to do, speak to these issues. On a final note, am thinking about just having the car towed home, and trying to finish the job ourselves (my husband and I)--but that's a bit scary to me.

 

I know this is not very helpful, but I am not confident that your mechanic knows what he's doing. It may be time to cut your losses and indeed bring the car home while you continue to look for a solution to the problem...

 

This is the driver-side of the engine. That shiney thing (with the wire coming out the end) sticking out of the exhaust manifold near the outlet is the O2 sensor...

 

Are they "Dyno Don" headers ? Whatever they are, how do they fit? Must anything be bent, removed, or otherwise "compromised" for the headers to fit? I'm asking regarding my '89 IROC VERT and a likely L98 or L31 Swap? PM me or brief reply, here, if you anyone wishes. thanks.

 

I wouldn't have much faith in the mechanic and it's only costing you money for something you probably can't screw up and worse than they have. Sounds like it's very lean, possible large vacuum leak

 

Thanks for the responses. Helpful in that I keep thinking that. Funny thing is while we are standing there and he's messing with the choke flap to keep it running, we notice that Carb port B (the one that goes to the air cleaner) is open and not capped. So we ask.........did you try capping the open ports and get it to idle right and he says Oh yeah. Is that not a vacuum leak?????? or do I need to do a lot more reading. I am serious. While my itty bitty education on this stuff, leads me to think this is a vacuum leak, I wouldn't put a hundred dollars on it.

 

Any unused and uncapped ports on the carb (definitely port B) are a vacuum leak, which will cause the air/fuel mixture to be lean.
Find a new mechanic...

 

O2 sensor won't cause the issues you're seeing.

a vacuum leak will cause it to idle high, enough of a leak will not allow it to drop down to lower curb idle speed.

of course there's a lot of adjustments and settings that we don't know are correct or not, so it's difficult to diagnose.

if all of the carb settings are close to correct, AND assuming the ignition system is functioning and timed correctly, it should be able to idle enough to fine tune the Idle Air Mixture screw (the one on top). the idle mixture screws (low front) would be one of the 'carb settings' that would have to be close to correct.

I'm not going to disparage the capabilities of your current mechanic but if you want to take it home, we'll work with you best we can to try to get it running better.

that said, many of these parts are, at best, near 40? years old. a bad qjet core is a possibility. maybe you could ship me yours and I could try to run it on mine, or I could ship a loaner to you to try on yours.

 

Thanks for confirming that T.L., and naf your generosity of your time and expertise (let alone a loaner carburetor) is incredibly kind. As for my mechanic, he has had his share of struggles the past 5 months, and I believe is more than anything ,just overwhelmed (lost his right hand man) and unable to focus on the car. I was just trying to confirm what my instincts were telling me. We are going to get the car this week, and once it's home, I'll be back. Thank you all so much.

 

Smart move.
I've brought back to life many 40 year old carbs, full of varnish. Most only need cleaning. I've never seen one cracked, not saying it can't happen. I always hate it when someone says they rebuilt it. Usually put in wrong parts. Carbs are not that hard. Plenty of help on here.

 

I know its been awhile. Sorry for the delay. Went to pick the car up and the mechanic kindly asked that I give him some more time, saying he had gotten this far and really wanted to finish the job. Well, spoke to him yesterday and he has apparently solved the problem (took off all vacuum hoses and reinstalled and voila!). Says its idling good--but emissions still a bit high. Possibly picking it up late this week or early next week.

All of this lead me to realize that if I wanted to keep the car, I would have to start learning more about the car and how to do some work on my own. So, I bought a used qjet off of ebay and am in the midst of rebuilding it. Got it all apart and most of the parts cleaned. Going to order a throttle shaft bushing kit bc its got a tiny bit of movement aft and fore. Once that's done, I'll be ready to reassemble. Got some thexton tools and have learned how to adjust lean and rich mixture screws, the idle air bleed valve and working on the carb angle tool (also read you can do those adjustments w/out the tool---but since I have it....). Have read all about the choke set up, choke pull off and fast idle and curb idle adjustments. Was prepared to start putting all of this new knowledge, thexton tools and possibly the ebay carb to work, but looks like it might just need to be fine tuned a bit. I am ready!! Once I have the car back, I'll run codes and see how it runs. I'll let you know.

One quick question. On my ebay carb, an E4ME, there is some light brown crud around the well plugs. I count 6 differed plugs on the bottom of the main body. There are the two large ones right in the center--they are clean with no residue. There are two under the fuel bowl that look like two slanted towers, and then one under the accelerator pump and then another smaller slanted tower, I guess for the needle/seat. All of these had some light brown crud around them. My question is, does that crud alone indicate they are leaking, or does dirt and grime build up on these areas without a leak.

I ask bc I have read that the later qjets (mine is an 86) rarely leak, and I would prefer not to have to drill out the plugs or epoxy them. I plan to put some gas in the fuel bowl later today and we'll see if there evidence of leakage that way. Is there another way to rule out leakage from those plugs. Also I see a lot of people use JB Weld, the Grey marine-tex and more recently gas tank repair JB Weld. Any thoughts on what is preferred or rejected. As always thanks for your help and support.

 

That's excellent. I admire your ambition to delve into such a project. Whatever you do, DON'T bend the metering rods during reassembly. It will never opperate correctly, and there is no way to fix them once they're bent. Also; DO NOT use epoxy to seal well plugs. I don't care what anyone tells you, that is a HACK way of doing it, and the epoxy will break down eventually (sometimes in only a matter of months). The proper way to repair leakey well plugs is with plugs that have O-ings (old plugs must be ground out) which is the way GM dealerships used to do it back in the day. Here is a link to a video on how to do it (I have actually met the guy personally). With that said, I don't know that yours are leaking, or that the "crud" you're seeing is an indication of such...

 

Got the car back. Not much good news. It starts and I drove it home about ten miles. That's about it for the good news. When I picked it up the mechanic said it shifted hard. He said he tried to adjust TV cable, and did what the computer told him, but just couldn't get it right. Get this--said he even tried to drive it without the cable (that just made my stomach turn). On the ride home, it was hard to tell, especially when the car was cold if the engine was missing (sputtering) or if it was all the trans/TV cable. I would pretty gently hit the gas and it would just sputter. I could see my rpms go up but was getting no power, no acceleration. Would not go into second. Seemed to act just a little (I mean little) better if I hit the gas a bit harder. Would then wind up and eventually go into second. Thinking the problem is all trans related, but will not really know how the engine runs till I get that fixed.

I have read the FSM instructions for adjusting the tv cable and at least two hundred posts on here. Seems like the adjusting procedure is successful for some and equally unsuccessful for others. But, I guess I got to give it a whirl. Any tips.

But first things first. We did a really quick look under the hood and the first thing I noticed was that he has the driver side valve cover on backwards. He has the oil fill cap towards the front of the car, and the pcv valve at the rear towards the firewall. Really??? GEEZ.. So the first question is--how bad is that. I assume we will need to change ASAP. Difficult???

Second, I noticed the breather tube on the passenger side was off the air filter housing and also loose on the valve cover end. Just reconnect? Is there a lot of pressure put on these and do I need to figure out how to attach them more securely?

Third, spark plug wires laying right on a header. Will need to move and secure them before even starting the car again.

Fourth, the metal bracket referenced in post #89, that I meticulously sanded and painted--Gone.

That was just a five minute look under the hood, without moving or disconnecting anything. Some mistakes really cost you. Stupid me. In my defense, I will say that this mechanic has been in business for thirty years. Highly regarded. Owned an old el camino (very similar sbc) and is certified by our dmv as only a few are, to make acceptable (to dmv) repairs to an emission system to qualify for a waiver on emissions testing. Sure I probably could have done the work, but would probably been denied a waiver--when that time comes, if it ever does.

Now back to what needs to be done to fix all of this. I think first is the valve cover, Yes? Will I need to move or disconnect anything other than AC extension, wires and hoses?

 

Oh, and thanks for the reply T.L. on the possible leaking well plugs. The epoxy thing thing just seems like a bad idea, so thanks for confirming that. I have looked for the repair plugs but not coming up with much. I see quadrajet power has one for the apt but doesn't look like they have them for secondary metering well plugs. Any leads?

 

I too, am looking for a set of Secondary Metering Well Plugs, for my 1979 Trans Am 403/AT car.

 

The backwards rocker cover won't really hurt anything, but definitely put it back correct. It's just 4 bolts. Easy.
The crankcase breather is not high pressure, but can eventully make a mess from blow-by, not to mention that you really want that air filtered.
Spark wires laying on the headers is definitely not good.
Yeah, not too impressed with that "mechanic"...

 

The Valve Covers Should Only Go One Way They Are Formed On The Top To Give Clearance For The Intake Manifold

 

Just looked--and you are absolutely correct. Looks like he wrenched them down good and flattened the edge---BRAND NEW Rocker Arm Covers. Thanks for the info.

 

OP, are you working with a licensed mechanic, with a business permit?

 

Well, that shop owes you a new set of covers...

 

the covers could easily be swapped side to side (left to right) and still install correctly. This would put the oil fill on the wrong side.

 

Yes, licensed, with permit. Very good reputation. One of just a few that are certified by our dmv to make emissions repairs in order to get an emissions testing waiver. That is, if you spend a certain amount of money on emissions repairs, by a certified mechanic, such as he, then you can apply for am emissions testing waiver. This post was not supposed to be about the competency of this mechanic, but it is hard not to spout off about this stuff. It's also, unfortunately par for the course. The mechanic before him, had me pick up the car saying it was done and running much better, after they dropped the TV cable boot on the transmission end, into the transmission. Got it home about three miles away, and immediately noticed trans fluid just pouring out of it. They knew it. My guess is I will have to eventually sell the car bc if I can't fix it myself, then I have no where to turn for reliable service. I am done with mechanics (except I do have a very good trans shop I completely trust--have an appointment there Monday, but would like to try and get the TV cable close so I can at least drive it there, and not have to yet again call a tow truck).. Plus, we have called and stopped by numerous repair shops in the area and no one works on these older cars anymore, or are simply unqualified to work on them. So I could really use all the help you all can give. I will give it my all--but the end looks near (just teared up a bit with that). I've owned this car for over thirty years. Love this car. Let's not mention the mechanic again. Moving on.

Today I will go out and try to turn the rocker arm cover around. Seems easy enough. Will tidy up the spark plug wires, and then begin to look at the TV cable. Wish me luck.

 

Already need help. Can't seem to get rocker arm cover out--it's loose and free but can't shimmy it out. I'm running into the metal brake booster line from carb at the brake booster filter, where there is a big bend in the line that goes up to filter. On the other end I'm running into a bolt from the AC. Thinking I need to remove the metal line that goes into carb and that may give me enough shimmy room. There are two bolts there where it goes into carb---can someone tell me which bolt I hold, and which bolt I turn to remove line. Don't want to add to my large and ever growing list of problems.

 

Got it! Got it! Got it!!! Rocker arm cover turned around!!!!! Next, onto a bunch of wire maintenance. Hopefully get to TV Cable tomorrow. Can I get a WOOHOO??

 

WOOHOO!
You can do it...

 

The selection of epoxy is important, and preparation is just as important. IMO, over-the-counter epoxies are a crap shoot. Something like CONAP is worth consideration.

The other permanent repair is brazing. Yes, it can be done, but again only with the proper filler and flux. You are not likely to find that at auto supply chains, imported tool stores, or Walmart.