danno,
danno says - Guys these cars work this way. Pump relay on for 2 sec at start, oil sender paralelled with relay takes over when oil pressure starts to go up. ECM does NOT supply power to pump, only supplies a ground to the pump relay coil to energize it.

I encurage you to check out this wiring diagram of an 86. If I am reading the diagram right, power (12v) is coming from the ECM to pin C to energize the relay. Pin B is a direct ground, so the relay has to be energized or closed whenever the ECM supplies power.

Everyone should check out this page of wiring diagrams that are specific to your car. There is a lot of info there for everyone.

Jess

After much eluding, the sith has reveled it's true idendity.

 

jd is correct.

The fuel pump circuit from the ECM is not like most of the other ones. It in fact provides the +12V for the relay coil, not the ground. The ground to the relay coil is a constant ground.

More importantly, the +12V supplied by the ECM to the relay is on under the following conditions:

1) For ~2 seconds after the key is originally switched on.
2) For as long as the ECM is receiving distributor reference pulses.

Since this relay is on an entirely separate path from the oil pressure switch, failure of EITHER path to provide +12V to the fuel pump does not in and of itself stop the pump from running. BOTH circuits must fail to provide +12V to the pump before the pump will shut off.

As I have pointed out before, if the fuel pump relay circuit is malfunctioning (due to a bad relay, ECM, or distributor signal) the oil pressure switch will keep the fuel pump running.

 

Not ashamed to admit I was wrong. Pulled my book and 12 volt feed for the coil IS switched through the ECM. The contact supply feed is from the 12 volt source in the car. MEA CULPA'S, guess I had better get some bifocals. In most applications relay coils are taken to ground by a saturated switch transistor, or power IC. In reality it doesn't really matter whether 12 volts is applied or other end of relay is grounded the result is the same. I was told by a buddy at a local Chevy dealer that the relay is only on when it's priming, and that the sender is the run 12 volt supply. I pulled my relay when the car was running and it continued to run. However I figured I HAD better amend my post. I pulled off the fuel pump relay and checked its operation cycle. It energizes for two seconds, deenergizes and guess what, it reenergizes and stays energized. Got my info from my friend at the dealer, gonna give him a call. Sorry for the misinformation. Danno

 

Well, my GM manual refers to the pressure switch as a "fuel pump safety switch". I think they mean just that. Say our relay dies just as we're pulling out in front of a big 18wheeler on a freeway. We're likely to get creamed. I think when GM says "safety switch", they mean human safety, not engine safety.

The relay's an electro-mechanical device, and can fail from use. If your engine fails to produce oil pressure, well, hey, that's a much more drastic failure than a relay. Understand what I'm trying to say? A relay breaking (and no fuel pressure) or an engine breaking (and no fuel pressure)... seems like the relay would be more prone to "wearing out" than the engine.

 

like I had mentioned in an earlier post, my car runs without the OPFP switch since I have no place to connect it on my car . I am running 90-92 Electronics on an 86 bottom end with 87 top end.
I actually had a discussion with a couple of people last night about this very topic. There are a lot of people that think that the OPFP switch kills the power to the pump when oil psi drops to zero.

I also killed my motor last night, so I am going to have to pull it and place a bigger one in it's place.

 

Vader, I will touch toes with anybody on electronics. Fact is that I or anyone else on this forum knows exactly how the software is written. My experience came from the fact that one day my car cranked 3 or 4 times to get started. I did not notice the usual whirr from the the fuel pump when I turned on the key. A call to my good friend Andy at our local dealership got me on what I thought was the right track. He told me what I related on my threads. I never took the time to actually monitor what happened with the fuel delivery system. The fact is that in electronics there is no cut and dry way to do things. In all reality there is no reason to have a reduntant 12 volt source to the fuel pump. Is there a reduntant timing chain, belt if so equipped, or anything else that would make an engine fullproof? Can you answer WHY there are 2 voltage sources to the fuel pump? I can't. There are more high failure devices in any car than a properly chosen relay. Maybe the design engineer chose a reduntant current path to reduce current that the relay had to handle, or he knew GM chose a ****ty relay. I have had relays operating in the broadcast business for years and if properly selected are MORE reliable than thier electronic counterparts. After I thought about it some more I came to this conclusion. The relay energizes to prime, then shuts off then turns on again. BUT during this time maybe the ECM looks for operation of the oil sender before it reenergizes the relay. Suppose the oil sender does not relate a signal to the ECM. Will it at that point shut the engine down? I really don't know until I duplicate the circumstance. Makes more sense than a paralell current path. Fact is that mechanics with 17+ years don't know EXACTLY what happens in every situation,hell they talk to tech support almost every day. Next time I make a mistake do a little better than a cheap shot. I'll dance with anybody!

 

I don't have an Oil Pressure Switch on my car and it runs solely on the fuel pump relay. I have 90-92 Electronics on my car.
My car fires right up to, no hard cranking, just turn the key and she starts up.

I feel like I am repeating myself.

 

Danno, you're getting things way out of whack here...pull the schematics of your car, and forget about guessing.

What you're saying sounds plausable, but is only confusing those who don't know how the circuit works.

It's a simple backup circuit that keep the engine running in case of a failure with the ECM driver, or relay...nothing more.

And I'll bet there's more than a few guys on this forum that know exactly how the firmware is...head over to the DIY PROM forum, I think you'll see what I mean.

In fact, I know of at least one of our members writing his own source code for the SD cars.

 

Oh, and the only signal the ECM sees regarding the fuelpump, is the voltage...but the ECM doesn't know if if coming from the relay, or the oil psi switch...another parallel path..this time back to the ECM.

 

Danno,

No flames intended - I'm not sure where the "cheap shot" thing came in ¿? I was just relating what I found on MY car and left open the possibility of yours being different. For all I know, it could be. There are plenty of other differences across the years.

Whether the pump relay is sourced or a sinking input didn't really matter to me, since I was simply looking for operation and metered the coil directly. Looking at the schematics again, it is obvious that it is sourced. I also discovered that even if the engine is cranked with the pressure switch disconnected, the pump relay will energize again as soon as there are distributor reference pulses. It doesn't happen if you try to crank it in gear, so it likely isn't the ignition switch or starter enable relay, or even the cranking circuit, but distributor pulses (my guess). I'll admit that I don't have any documented logic for the ECM firmware (wish I did), but some things can be deduced from analysis. At least I know I can start and run with a failed auxilliary oil pressure switch.

As for the dealer technicians, no one is perfect. I just two days ago read a member's email relating an incident at his local dealer, whereupon the service technician and manager in Seattle told him that no Pontiacs ever had Borg Warner differentials, despite the number of bolts in the cover. They insisted that he remove the cover to pull the "C" clip on the axle shaft to remove the axle for bearing service. He would still be looking for that clip if it weren't for this board. Go figure.... Then again, they may have forgotten more things that we know about their field. They have a lot of different models to work on.

I understand completely that there are probably as many ways of operating the relay as there are engineers. I've seen two "identical" pieces of equipment with two different exec programs in CNCs from the same manufacturer - one serial number apart. Shoot, just have a couple of engineers sit down and write a ladder diagram for a relatively simple circuit, or design a PC card trace mask, and you'll probably have two completely different animals.

I understand about the proper application of devices, and also wonder why GM felt is was so necessary for the redundant system. To my knowledge, Ford doesn't do this, and I know that the '91-95 Chryslers don't do this, at least on some of their offerings with EFI. GM could have chosen a lot better candidates for redudndant systems. You could be right about the current carrying idea or the "marginal" relay quality (I certainly agree on the MAF power relay).

No one is questioning your skill or expertise. My observation was simply that no one had been able to offer a definitive answer, so I experimented. I may be the next poor S.O.B. with a fuel pump elelctrical problem, and I always like to have an understanding of the system before I dive in. It sounds like you know exactly what I'm talking about.

Hard-contact relays outlasting the solid-state counterparts? I wouldn't doubt it. I've seen 10+ year old Radyne TUBES running 60kW RF generators without a hiccup. They usually last longer than the capacitors by a large margin.

Lemme know where you think I "cheap-shot" you, since I didn't see it in the text, and certainly didn't intend it. Hell, I think I've got the record for "foot-in-mouth", so I know have little room to point fingers at someone else.

 

Hey Vadar, I am fairly new to the boards. You seem to have an above average knowledge of these cars. I look forward to your replies. Where did you get all this know how?? Are you a GM person? Thanks for all your replies I print them and put them in a book for the future. :hail:

 

I edited my original post! Thanks to all the people who actually verified this!

Now, that's how it works! Don't believe me, unplug the oil pressure switch and try to go somewhere.

CORRECTION! THE ABOVE IS NOT NOT NOT how it works.
Man, I don't mind being wrong but. . . I like being correct so. . .

Today I finally had time to check this out.
According to Mitchell On Demand concerning the fuel pump, (and it is a big deal although not exactly on topic because I really don't want to leave someone with the WRONG information and this guy needed to know exactly how the circuit actually worked for his case about his car running without oil

According to Mitchell On Demand:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CODE 54: FUEL PUMP VOLT LOW

The ECM monitors fuel pump pressure switch circuit voltage for fuel system adjustments. This signal is also used to store a trouble code if the fuel pump relay is defective or fuel pump voltage is lost while the engine is running. There should be about 12 volts on circuit No. 120 for 2 seconds after the ignition is turned on, or ANY TIME REFERENCE PULSES ARE BEING RECEIVED BY THE ECM.

Code 54 will set if the voltage on circuit 120 is less than 2 volts for 1.5 seconds since the last reference pulse is cycles off. However, if the voltage detected is less than 2 volts with the engine running, the light will only remain on while the condition exists. If no fault is found, see INTERMITTENTS is H- TESTS W/O CODES article.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've own two thirdgens, both 85's and never had any reason to trouble shoot these circuits. I have a retro-fit '88 GTA TPI and electronics, ECM, etc, (now updated to SD) is an '89 GMC truck. Several months ago when I would turn sharp corners it would die. I found the connector pulling tight on the oil pressure switch above the oil filter and fixed it. Haven't had a problem since. So... somewhere in my retro-fit, (and I do get the 2 second relay run but I don't get voltage after it's running), I have a problem.

The engine runs perfect and scanning is normal. Been tuning PROMs since December and all the data is normal. I did notice and post the question a while back, before I converted to 730 SD why when I unplugged the tan/black wire for ESC my engine died. I think I'm on to something about that now! Glad I kept up with the thread.

Sorry for the mis-information!!!

Now I can sleep at night again!



__________________

 

SMas,

I'm not sure I followed their explanation, but I THINK that is what I found in my testing. Their explanation of the "TIME REFERENCE PULSES" is what I presumed but didn't test for.

Since it isn't on this page:



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Blackbird,

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but there are a lot of more qualified experts here than me. Yes, I am a "GM guy" since that is what I own and drive. I've had Toyotas, Volkswagens, Fords, Mopars, and even a Simca, but am now down to six GM vehicles (hopefully soon only five).

I haven't done automotive repair as a means of support for more than 20 years, however, and then only part-time while I was in college. I think I gathered what little knowledge I might have by reading, researching, and listening. Applying what I learned from other endeavors is another benfit. I'm sure that anyone can do the same, since I'm just not that bright a fellow.

 

That would have gone down with me.

 

GREAT morning in eastern PA. Pulled the oil sender switch and the motor ran fine. Apologies all around, the 12 supply has a dual path to the fuel pump motor. Pulled the Fluke out of mothballs and looked at what happened. At the pump relay connector- relay energized for the two seconds or thereabouts. It shut OFF, then after the engine started it reenergized. There are two current paths to the fuel pump motor. No more discussion, I screwed up. Danno

 

Don't know if this will be any help, but awhile back i had a 305 in my 92' camaro and i would say i was "4 quarts low" on oil (at least ) and was hammering my car at the time and suddenly i heard a horrific sound, so i slowed down,drove for like another mile to a gas station and checked the oil . There was no oil on the dipstick. And after i put the oil in the engine got a little quieter for like another 300 mile and that was the end of the 305. But my car never shut off without any oil in it. After i took the 305 out and inspected it ,turns out i spun a bearing in it. I would say get a lawyer. I can speak from experience, that had to do some damage to the engine.

 

Thanks for the replie Vader. I too am not a pro by any means. However I have no problem trying things if I have some idea what I am doing. I too have had Gm , Ford , Dodge cars and trucks. I have a 1500 ram 4 X 4 as my everyday truck. (had to put on headers and K-M filter just for kicks). I read alot of things on the boards and in books and magizines. My current project is a 89 GTA . This is my 4th bird to date. Fastest was 1991 Formula which I bought new. For some reason that car just was fast.I guess everything just matched right. One run at the strip with me driving(I was lost at what to do) 13.5 with bad wheel spin. Bone stock. Should have kept that car. I still think your the man.:hail:

 

vader,
you wanted documented ladder logic. couldn't find it.
best i could find is the assembely language . i hope it helps.
jess

 

Thanks for all of the replies guys, this is helping me out quite a bit actually.

Interesting to know too.

The mechanics mentioned that my oil light didn't come on. Maybe i never look, but do our cars HAVE oil idiot lights?

They are still fighting me, and i have no new information on a resolution as of yet. Have the BAR rep working with me sometime this/next week, so hopefully we can get things resolved there. I already have 3 written estimates for repairs (long block replacement, none of the chevy dealers would allow a rebuild, they claimed about 50 hours of labor for a rebuild, and said a long block replacement was cheaper, and made more sense.

 

I don't think any IROC came with an idiot light, they all have that wonderful thing called a gauge. If the tech would have looked at it to make sure it built pressure, shut the car off and checked the oil to make sure it is at it's proper level like he's supposed to then you wouldn't have the problem. Sorry to hear about the car man, give them hell. :ar15

 

Still haven't touched the car. Talking to a few people about legal advice (non professional) they say that I can't take this to court, based on 'suspected damage'.

So im not sure what to do right now. Maybe pickup the car, and drive it, and see if it breaks or not...

 

I had a shop put one quart in my 355car and I drove it arond for weeks until i decided to check it out. This was right after i had built the motor. (They did a test and tune on it) I drained outthis one quart and was pissed. Man I drove my car like this for weeks and couldnt figure out why my oil pressure was bouncing. But dont you know I put a fresh 5 quarts in it and everything was fine. Id say with the amount of time that you car was running it should be okay. I didnt run long enough to get up to temp. so I think you should be ok. And this oil pressure switch that everyone is debating about...I have to agree with it, your fuel pump relay is wired through it, if the oil pressure drops too low, it breaks the circuit, breaks the fuel and cuts the engine. And when you go to restart it should start up but then stall again because of no oil cutting the fuel pressure again...

 

AAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

Sorry...

 

Tell the mechanic that you have an Uncle in Miami an He's a big Jewish Lawyer and I'll bring him by for a visit and by the end of the month your business is gone if my car isn't fixed.

 

I bet "My Cousin Vinny" can do it. He was a car expert in that movie.

Ive been reading this for a few days now, and when you said the part about not going the court because of suspected damage, then when it breaks down it will go into court??

What if your taking a 30 min drive away from civilization and it breaks down then??? Sometime when my car spazzes out I don't trust to drive it until I'm positive nothing is gonna hurt it. Thats the scary part .... If its been hurt, how much and how potential damage did it do?

 

well all i got to say is .. either pick a different place or start doin your own oil.. doin it yourself you'll know everythings right and tight..

 

No, no, please not this again! A look at the schematic posted above proves this wrong (no offense meant).

 

My 2 cents...try changing your own oil and brakes at your home...i do it....its way cheaper....you can buy all the parts and tools at the local parts store....im 17 and have been changing oil and pads and basic car maintance since i was 13.....keep us updated....

DABE

 

I used to change my oil myself actually, i enjoyed doing what little i understood in the world of mechanics. ; )

Problem is, i live in california. EVERY house/apartment/condo/etc. is controlled under **** ruled tyrants (community associations).

These assc's won't allow you to work on your car. It's considered I guess, "low income" or whatever, and it decreases propery value, so if you are caught doing work on your car, he!!, even taking to long to take the groceries out of the trunk, you will be fined, and they compile the fee each successive time you are caught.

It's tough, i want to move back to denver because im sick of all of california, but this whole thing is delaying me by about 3-4 months more then i expected.

As far as brakes go, the rear calipers are binding? not familiar with doing brakes at all, i couldn't even get my tire off at night (yes, i do some stealth repairs when i think i can get away with it) because this same lube shop torqued my wheel lugs to 99999 ft/lbs when i had new tires installed a few months ago.

I figured I would just go back to the same shop, have them install the pads, and tell them to not torque my wheels on so tight as I couldn't get the lugs off if i pop a tire, to replace it with a spare, and also decided i might as well have them do an oil change, i had hit about 2,800 miles since the last one.

So that's the answer to that. ; )

Stupid certified mail has been out for 7 days now, with no reply. Great. Im writing up a paper for them to sign with the warranty agreement i wrote up, then pickup my car. Might do this tomorrow, and report any oddness with driving i might encounter.

 

Danno,

My hat is tipped to you. You're a big man, with honor.

You found exactly what I did, but I (like you) still can't presume to know why the hell they did the circuit that way. Isn't that pressure switch connector just the most fun you can have with your clothes on?

And don't think that you've made any mistakes - you've just educated yourself. No one else could say for sure either.

Besides, I'll bet the roof of my mouth looks more like a Nike than yours. I've got a lot more experience chewing soles, for sure.


JDR - Thanks for the link on the code. I'm going to look into it when I get bored and see if I can figure out a few mysteries of the ECM. I'll let you know.

 

Hi, I have been away for a bit and came back the the thread to
see what was up. There seems to be some confusion on the fuel
pump circuit. Here's the deal. When you turn the key on the ECM
via terminal A1 energizes circuit 465 for 2 seconds. This primes
the rail so the car will start. Once the car starts the oil pressure
switch sends current from circuit 430 (batt +) to circuit 120 which
is the feed for the pump, the MAF and gives the ECM it's fuel pump
signal. The fuel pump relay is no longer in play at this time. It is
now safe to pull the fuel pump relay out of the vehicle if you wish
but you will need to reinstall it for the car to start again.

At this point the car is running. If you pull the connector off the
oil pressure switch the car will run for a few minutes until the rail
pressure drops below about 20 lbs or so.

Why they do this is in case of an accident. If the engine dies and
gas happens to be spraying from a ruptured line, the lack of oil
pressure (less than 1 or 2 lbs, the limit set in the switch) the
pump will loose power and stop working.

Ford has (man I hate to say this) a more secure safety device
for shutting down the fuel pump in case of an accident. The use
an inertia switch similar to an air bag sensor which trips when the
car hits something and cuts power to the pump. It also has a
reset switch to turn it back on for the next accident

Here is a little something I have been working on. Took 3 hours
to do the first two runners.

 

I have decided to keep them.

 

This is an outside shot. I brought the runners together and will
fill the seam so they will look stock from the outside. I think I
found the glue/compound that GM used to put the runner assy's
together with and will be using it on this project. I have talked to
a guy that uses this stuff to glue custom manifolds together and
he says it is about the same stuff the car manufacturers use.

 

This is one of the 1/4 sections of runner that was removed.

 

I think some where the whole point has been missed as to the "safety switch". The real function of this switch is to cut the supply of fuel in the event of an accident and the motor dies thereby preventing a chance of fire. Believe it or not.

Don>>>

 

Actually, that's not correct.

First, you don't NEED the fuel pump relay at all. The fuel pump will turn on after you have cranked the motor long enough to generate sufficient oil pressure to close the oil pressure switch. It'll take a while to start, but it will start.

Second, several people have checked their car at this point and have found that the relay is commanded by the ECM to turn on in the following situations:

1) For ~2 seconds after initial key on.
2) Any time the ECM is receiving distributor reference pulses.

If you have a functioning fuel pump relay, you can disconnect the oil pressure switch and the car will continue running. Of course, if you have a functioning oil pressure switch, you can remove the fuel pump relay and the car will continue running.

The two circuits provide completely separate paths to +12V and operate completely independently of one another.

Also, whoever it was that theorized that the switch is there to shut the pump off in case of an accident, you're incorrect. If the motor stalls, the ECM will see no more distributor reference pulses and will turn the pump off. In fact, the oil pressure switch actually causes the pump to run-on a bit after the ignition is switched off because it takes a few seconds for the pressure to bleed off.

My original thought was that it was to allow you to get the car to the dealership for servicing, but a little ways back someone hit upon the idea of it being a safety switch to prevent the car from stalling while driving.

Say for example you were merging on to the freeway in front of an 18-wheeler and the fuel pump relay decided exactly at that moment to kick the bucket, or maybe the wire leading from the ECM that Mr. DangerField Mouse chewed on decides to break, or the distributor wiring gets flaky for a second and the ECM loses the reference pulses. Without the oil pressure switch, the fuel pump would stop and the motor would stall, resulting in a high likelihood of you becoming a hood ornament on said 18-wheeler.

Of course, why GM decided to wire the circuit that way is beyond me, other than I think it is (again) proof that crack does not smoke itself.

However, that is how the circuit works, and no amount of wishing otherwise will make it so.

 

Also, whoever it was that theorized that the switch is there to shut the pump off in case of an accident, you're incorrect. If the motor stalls, the ECM will see no more distributor reference pulses and will turn the pump off. In fact, the oil pressure switch actually causes the pump to run-on a bit after the ignition is switched off because it takes a few seconds for the pressure to bleed off.

Go ahead put 10lbs of pressure on that oil sw. after the motor dies and see how long the fuel pump runs.

 

Don,

I've seen more than one car whose fuel pump continues to run for a short period of time (a second, maybe more) after the motor is shut off. The switch closes at a very low pressure, and most of the cars I've worked on have 30psi at hot idle.

The fact remains that the ECM turning off the relay is almost instantaneous and ALSO happens when the motor stalls.

 

So then, how do our cars run without this oil pressure safety switch connected? That's 0 PSI oil pressure, as far as the circuit's concerned. Look at the schematic that Vader posted.

 

I love a good pissing contest.

I may be wrong, but the trouble shooter in my Snap-On scanner
once upon a time led me to believe that the oil switch ran the fuel
pump by itself after the car was running. But then again it was in
the Snap-On scanner troubleshooter which has led me wrong
before.

I have not done the test before nor can I do it on my car, my fuel
pump is driven by a controller inside the car so I do not have the
switch.

 

<b>UPDATE:</b>

Picked up my car today. Funny too, i took two pictures of it when i left, because i noticed that i had a larger-than-normal gap between my hood and my nose. Well, of course when i drove away, my hood started flapping, so i had to pull over and shut it.

So that sort of proves how they really don't know what the hell they are doing there, at least to me.

Anyhow, the engine started kind of odd, revved up and down just a little bit, then sounded like it was doing alright. I drove a really short distance to my workplace, about 1/2 mile max maybe.

Haven't had time to really drive it yet, but ill try doing that after work, and see if anything seems amis.

Bleh, all of this legal crap takes a lot of time to figure out. Im tryoing my hardest to do this by the books. I figure ill keep driving for a few weeks, and wait for my engine to go out. Then hopefully by then my BAR rep will have gotten more paperwork pushed, and also hopefully the BBB would have started on my complaint too.

This isn't much fun, trust me. I just hope I can take this to court quickly, and then have this all resolved.

 

Man I hope you get a brand spankin new 350. These guys are real *******s. Bet if this crap happend to them they would be pissed. Good luck man

 

Me too, but it's not much of a pissing contest until someone goes out to their vehicle and proves the 5 or so people who say it works the other way wrong.

 

What was the name of this place again?

>hehe what the phone# just kidding dont post that here that wouldnt be right HA!

>good luck on that law suit

 

I don't want to give out the name until after this is resolved or not. don't want anyone calling them and bitching them out or anything, i might lose a case for harrassment or something, even if i didn't do it.

Although, when i take this to court, if i win or lose, i will tell you all the name/address/ph# of this location, so everyone will know not to go there.

 

99Hawk120 is right on. The initial firing up of the fuel pump is to prime the system. And that fuel pump run-on is due to retained oil pressure on shut down.

 

If you lose the case I would post their name and # on this board. Have every one of the members call and harass them. Tell them they live near and they are loosing alot of business, because you have alot of friends that live close. Have you told them you would publish their f*** up in the paper if they don't make it right. Yah sure you could take it to court, but a little publication in the paper may be more threatening. I was in a situation like that with my mountain bike, I threatend to advertise my add in the dirt rag magazine and on the net. Needless to say they went in my favor really quick. This may not be so easy with a car since the cost you are working with is alot more, but it might be worth a try if you do not win, or if you dont want to go to court.

 

It seems as if certain people don't read all the posts.
I HAVE NO OIL PRESSURE SWITCH ON MY CAR AND IT STARTS AND RUNS JUST FINE. (well, it don't run fine anymore since I have a rod or two knocking, but that is besides the point).

 

Whooooo, boy! Took me like an hour to read this thread! ;-) It has been very interesting and educational though.

Anyhow, someone waaaaay up there mentioned pricing for an engine rebuild. I had a local shop quote me on rebuilding my 305 in my 91 Formula, they said for a complete removal, rebuild, and reinstallation would be between $1750 and $1850. Not a bad deal, methinks. So I'm saving my pennies. I've got 180k on the clock right now And the car just had a new transmission put in by the previous owner. (I've had my car for about a week now).

Also, another thought... for more paperwork, you might want to print out this thread, it may come in useful in court. If they say it could be altered then give them the URL and have them look for themselves

 

I am not going to do a rebuild of my motor.
I am going LT1. $1,000 for a complete LT1 minus the Alternator. Comes with complete harness and Computer. 50K miles on it.