I usually like it when a car pulls up to me and decides to go for it cause my car looks good, and usually I do a decent job of holding my own...until today!

Pulled up to the car and we both got off the light even but he was hella toying with me cause you could hear it in his engine. We hit 60 and he just took off like I was at a standstill!!! Although, what chance did I stand against an Enzo!? lol

Sorry I just had to share cause I was impressed that a man bought one and actually drove it like it was meant to be driven instead of using it as a museum piece! But *** it was fun, the road was a nice twisty two lane per direction backroad with almost no other cars. And he was nice enough to let me attempt to stay in his league but everytime he'd toy with me then take off through the corners like a bat outa hell. Definate fun hehe.

 

At least you had fun - and the guy was a good sport (and driver).

I'm wating for the day I come across an Enzo or Carrera GT when I have the nitrous ready and the driver is willing......

 

thats my goal in life to have my car handle on par with most exotics and out run them in the straights....

 

Out run, yes, out handle.....I don't think so. Not in a third gen anyway.

Why do I say this? Because when I worked at the car dealership, my favorite mechanic had a third gen that he had about $20,000 into for SCCA Autocross. He showed me pictures of him racing it in a popular magazine, it's pretty cool.

Anyway, he can't even drive the car on the streets because of how extreme his set-up is, not to mention that his wheels are so light that he's sure they'd bend/break on a pothole (he had them custom made, they are retarded light from what I remember). Moving on, he told me it was frustrating because there were CRX's that still made it around the track 2 whole seconds quicker than he did.

 

i dont know about that stu. not one to know this but i think a thirdgen could be made to handle with some exotics. if i get the wieght down and biased right, with wide wheels and some sticky tires, i think it will hold its own. not doubtin you cuz you obviously had the experience with someone who does SCCA racing, but i think it can be made to handle well. maybe the guy couldnt drive it as well as others? just a thought

hot rod did some articles on a 68 camaro and a 66-67 chevelle or whatever that outhandled ferrari, lambo, porsche and whatnot. if a 68 camaro can be made to handle them, then i know i can get a iroc-z to take them down. And i find it hard to believe that a CRX will make it around the track faster than a rwd car. props to them as CRX's are nice rides, but fwd cars usually suck at autocross.

 

CRX's and other small light cars; miata, focus, mini's, civic hatch's, MR2's etc... are devastating on the small tight courses that comprise autocross events. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a fish out of water, but it's not the best genre for a Camaro. However thirdgen could destroy them on a full course though. As for competeing with exotics or even not so exotics it's not going to happen. It would probably end up being punishing to drive and still would not beat the overall dynamics of a well engineered sportscar. You might be able to pull a higher static G-load or slalom but it's going to be a "one trick pony" kind of car. You can take most exotics out stock, flog them at a track event all day, then drive it to the Opera with your supermodel girlfriend later that same evening.
It is nice to hear of someone in a Ferrari willing to play, it unfortunatley rare for cars like that to end up in the hands of driving enthusiasts, most guys just seem to buy them to use as bait.

 

This is true, I kind of forgot to mention this part. Oops. hehe.

Anyway, it helps when the guys in the CRX don't even take their foot off the gas.

 

Just for a little comparison check out the results from the Atlanta ProSolo here
If you take the winner from H-stock, the lowest stock class, and compare his times around I think you'd be surprised. Keep in mind this is not even a "S" , just a regular Mini.
He beat the superstock winner driving a Z06 vette by over a second, the 4th gen in E-Street Prepared moddified by by Stranos motorsports and pretty much everybody else except a couple of MR2's.

 

thats impressive, dont get me wrong, i love little handling cars like miata and such but i just think a properly built camaro could handle well and have some good fun with them little cars. camaros can be made light too. LOL

 

3rd gens can be made to handle with the best of them but you will never touch some of those exotics. They are lower, wider, have a lower center of mass, longer wheelbase, better weight distrobution, less sprung masses, and the list goes on.

Lighter cars benifit on short cicuits were transition speed dominates. 3rd gens are a better platform for road racing where they can hold a curve much longer with less transitions through the twisties. Even a nascar would suck on most autocross courses but it would work you over on a road course. Set-ups for those are completely different. That is why you see small cars just tear up the big boys on the autocross weekends.

 

So the question is, where do the Exotics fit in on the autocross corses?

 

Some lose some win. A lot of that has to do with poor drivers though. A heavy exotic tends to hold its weight pretty well against the little guys. Some still get schooled though.

What would a Lotus Elise be? Is that too cheap to be an exotic? That is the ultimate road autocross car.

 

Couldn't agree more, especially at the local level, that's why I tried to find a frame of reference (a Pro event) where all the drivers should be at least "good". I was only responding to the comment abou the CRX beating the Camaro in the Auto-X by 2 sec. I mis-read Orr89RocZ's post and thought he meant the Camaro driver must have been poor to lose. It's the one racing forum really dominated by small light cars so it is believeably that a CRX beat a well prepared and well driven Camaro. That is all I meant. Just thought someone might be interested in seeing how things stacked up.
You're absolutely right an Enzo really has no place at an Auto-X, except for the owners curiosity and amusment, just like it has no reason to be at a drag strip. Personally if I could write a check for an Enzo I'd also be writing them for every track day and drivers clinic I could find. That's where that car belongs.
As for being competitive, a thirdgen would be extremley fun and competitive in several classes, but it's not the tool of choice for capturing the overall if that is your desire.

 

I agree. Consider what Kenny B. was able to do for the Fox chassis all these years. Money talks.

 

I don't know what the Elise would run in, that is one sweet ride though. Like the twin turbo Porsche and other big dogs I'm sure it wouldn't be eligible for any of the Stock classes.
But as far as I'm concerned you can keep all the porky "drivers aid" riddled supercars, I already have a mother.
Give me a blank check for a track day tool and I'd spend it on this Cosworth Caterham CSR. Won't let me direct link, CSR is all he way on the right.

 

My co-worker (Eric Schmidt) runs his S-10 at the local autocross track, he runs ESP, and does pretty darn well there, hanging with the other ESP drivers. He's also not running slicks, but if you pester him, he might tell you that his has drop spindles, so he shouldn't even be running ESP anymore, dunno what his new class would be, but he'd get stomped. The one time I was there, all the little cars, especially the Miata's were racking up some serious times. Oh yeah, can't forget the 280Z guys, either. Those guys are sick. However, the F-body can be made to handle pretty well, in comparison to the other F-stock vehicles they fall into.

I'd just be happy to handle like a 'vette at this rate...

 

whats the major difference from road racing and autocross? i thought it was similar? is autox shorter more twisty?

 

Autocross has cones. Lots and lots of cones. I got to work on my cone-smashing ability the one time I went. It was fun, lodging a cone between my cat and the body. No so much fun getting it out, all steaming and stuff.

Roadcourse is just that, roadcourse. No cones, unless they mark where the turn-in and braking points are at. I haven't tried that yet, but I sure want to, it looks really fun, even if I did suck at it.

 

I've met Eric before, super nice guy that really took some time to help me out my first time. He does do well in that little truck. I don't remember exactly but our times were close, he had a slight edge, I was driving a stock Focus ZX3. Fastest dude is Curtis Lee in a 240Z.
Auto-X is a low speed event. The fastest cars don't generally break 70mph and most people don't ever get out of 2nd gear.
I think this thread is now officially off topic

 

Yeah, Curtis is insane! (Oh, 240Z, right. Where'd I get 280Z from anyway?) I left my car in second gear the whole time, had a ball doing it. And yeah, it's off topic.

And now, back to your scheduled forum topic.

I don't see too mnay exotics where I'm at, but if I do, it's usually some young military guy who's paying through his nose to rent it for a few hours. The closest thing to an exotic here is Porshce and Corvette, both of which are fairly common.

 

Autocross is also typically on totally flat ground whereas a road course has elevation and banking changes.

 

We're not typical here in Hawaii. Not in a great many things. Like, gas prices. Heck, everything here is more expensive. Especially shipping from Summit or Jegs...

Anyway, we had a parking lot that they used for a long time, but that got shut down, so they moved it to the regular track, which has elevation changes. It's whacked - the same track is used for roadcurse, drifting and autocross, sometimes all in the same weekend...! The reverse camber turn kicked my behind, too. I saw a video clip of a single lap of Laguna Seca, and I was like, "Dang, when's this track going to END?" Ours is.... short.

 

even in a straight line from a roll, its gonna take some power to out run an Enzo. they wiegh about 3000lbs and have 600horse or so. thats some power to wieght ratio

 

Autocross tracks are usually in a parking lot, if that tells you anything.

 

Oh come on stu. You say that like it's a bad thing. But fair I guess. When I get asked if it takes talent to drag race I always say, "They just drive in a straight line if that tells you anything"

 

I agree that if you have a typical modified third gen, exotics hold many advantages, the two that can't be engineered into a thirdgen are the height (they are lower) and the unsprung mass. However everything else can be equaled or exceeded with off-the-shelf parts.

Wider - widebody kit to bring wheels out (and use larger tires also)

Lower center of mass - can be done quite easily

Wheelbase - a few inches extra makes no real difference

Weight distribution - easily changed

Unsprung mass - can be reduced somewhat, but not enough.


However, exotics are usually optimized from the factory, which means there are not many mods (effective ones) that you can do and improve them (ask a Ferrari owner about the aftermarket for his/her car - there isn't much!). A thirdgen (or mustang or vette) can have unlimited power, equal brakes, larger tires, and more driveability than the best of the exotics, all it takes is pateince, a plan, time, and money.


The littler cars do have a distinct advantage on small courses such as autocross. Take them to a big road course like laguna seca or pocono and give them a huge handicap - their advantage is almsot zero there.

 

No I'm just saying, if it's in a parking lot, just how big do you think it can be?

 

oh so that's what those cone courses are in the parking lots. LOL

anyway, exotics arent that light. most are around 3000-3500lbs, thats easy thirdgen area. hell the murcielago pushes over 3600lbs. where the modena 360 is about 3064lbs. so without all the smog, AC, and interior stuff, and make it more of a race car, you can easily see 3100lbs or so

 

if you dont think a camaro can handle with the best exotics do some research on "Big Red." 69 camaro that absolutly dominates. granted its no 3rd gen but a thirdgen can be made to handle just as well as a first gen.

 

wasnt big red the open high speed racing camaro? thing ran like 200-225 depending on competition in the late 80's and early mid 90's??

 

Wow, that was a blast from the past. I used to have that Big Red article from Car Craft on my wall as a tyke. But in reality Big Red is an unlimited resource tube frame supercar with '69 Camaro body work. It could just as easily be 3rd gen, a Chevette or a fiberglass kit car body. I'd be willing to bet that in today's dollars that car would cost close to if not over 200k to duplicate. I don't think anyones slamming 3rd gens. They are awesome cars than can handle, accelerate and stop amazingly well with relativley simple mods. But if you wanted to seriously play with an Enzo or Carrera GT.... well I don't even know what to say except I hope you own stock in OPEC. With enough money anything is possible. You're comparing the pinnacle of 2005 no-limit automotive engineering to a mass-produced mid 80's GM product. If you can build a 3rd gen that can actually still be called 3rd gen, that can hang with this more power to you, love to see it. And by hang I mean drive a couple hundred miles to a road course, lap all day, and drive back home again all with enough manners and comfort to keep your significant other happy. I'm pretty sure Big Red can do it, but big Red is not a Camaro or any other kind of production car.

 

cool...I got smoked by a new porshce the other day...I got smoked bad

 

well obviously a mid 80's production sports car that you can grab for 2 grand isnt going to handle like a enzo but if you put as much money into the 3rd gen as you would pay for the enzo yes it would out perform the ferrari just like big red.

point is yes no way a camaro with basic suspension mods will hang with an enzo but it all comes to how much money you can drop into it. and if you can drop enough into it then the 3rd gen camaro would embarass (sp?) the enzo owner. i was basically addressing what stu said about how no 3rd gen could compete with a exotic.


but this is still amazing you got to race an ferrari, let alone an enzo i would kill to run against anything besides a mustang, prelude, or integra...

 

That's not the point. The point is that if you spent enough money on a Third Gen to do this, it couldn't possibly be considered a third gen anymore. Once you start replacing every single part of the car with something custom, it's not that kind of car anymore. Same as Big Red.

 

Big red is built for overkill - to the point all he has to do is change the oil, brake pads, and check the tire pressure.... the car only had the brakes updated and the engine redone (for more power), otherwise it is almost the same as 15 years ago....

You could make one not nearly as overbuilt for a lot less than they spent on that car.

And yes if you replace all the parts on a thirdgen with true replacement parts, its still considered a third gen - no matter who says otherwise. When you run a tube chassis like big red, its a race car.....

And even with the newest 2005 car, engineering is at least 3-4 years old - you can't have ideas now in your production car for next week. And both the Enzo and GT have a lot of compromises -would you be able to drive it on the street if they didn't?

I don't think it would be very hard to modify a thirdgen and take it to the right testing facility (the "ring") and outperform both the enzo and GT (GT ran 7:40 there).

 

So considering the basic chassis of the 3rd gen didn't really change during the production run beginning in '82. You're saying a stamped steel chassis with live axle, struts and truck steering designed in the 78-79 time frame will keep up with a carbon fiber chassis mid- engine supercar designed in 2001 with true replacement parts?
Screw it I'll just give, in you're right. You could probably build an unreliable, difficult to drive 3rd gen that when driven to death could post similar numbers to a supercar for less than big red. But after you're worn mentally from driving it, and the car is worn physically from not being "overbuilt" cars like Big Red and the GT/Enzo will still be out there not breaking a sweat. Like you said only brake pads and tire pressure. Imagine how fast those cars would be if they were built to the ragged edge. And of course they have compromises, they are street cars. The ultimate production street cars. I believe the only street car built with zero compromise is the million dollar McLaren F1, but I'm sure with bolt-ons you can beat that in your 3rd gen too.

 

Quality counts for something. That and everythig is a trade-off from one thing for something else. You want handling? It may come at the price of a bone-jarring uncomfortable ride. Third-gen handling is pretty good from the factory, but it's super-uncomfortable in comparison to a Caddilac or some other car that may not handle as well. Straight-line performance is all that and a bag of chips, either. If you car can do ten-second 1/4 miles, out-handle a Porsche and keep you alive and unharmed in a roll-over accident, sorry, it isn't stock by any stretch of the imagination, and I betcha it isn't street-legal either, unless you spent a LOT of coin on it. And what HawaiianRS said, driving such a car would be nerve-racking at the track, and probably pretty darn difficult on the street. The streets have issues with potholes and what not.

Sure you could do it, but it would cost a lot of money. Please prove us wrong, so we can do it, too, without dumping several thousand dollars into our cars. Fast, good (similiar to reliable), cheap - pick two. You can't have all three. If you try, you'll fail somewhere.

 

no hawaiian, i give in... what i was saying is you can take a thirdgen put money into it and do what needs to be done and you can outhandle a supercar for far less than what it would cost to purchase one of those supercars. but yes, obvioulsy if you were to stick with "replacement" parts the thirdgen and its truck steering system has no chance, even if hell freezes over i think id rather have a car like big red than a new stock supercar though, no one expects a 35 year old car to be able to do what big red can. and this reminded me of something, i need to get a rack and pinon for the camaro this year

 

If anyone truly thinks that you make a 3rd gen perform like an Enzo you need to wake up and smell reality. There is no doubt that the 3rd gen platform can be made to be a real performer. It has proven itself for years on end on various autocross, road course and SCCA events. It is also no mystery that one can be built and set-up to run with such big boys as lambo’s, vettes, porches and other deemed exotics. If you think that the Enzo is in the same category as them, you are sadly mistaken. The Enzo is basically a race car that happens to have a few features that allow it to be street legal. Everything on this car is hardcore racing. It is a million dollars for a reason. If it weren’t then it would be the same 300k as every other exotic. The only kind of car that could duplicate this kind of performance is a true circuit style race car. I can’t even believe some of you guys think a 3rd gen could compete with one of these things. It is a few thousand dollars for an oil change and like 10k for brake work. That should tell you something right there. This car would work over any race prepped 3rd gen. By work over I mean destroy. If you wanted to make your 3rd gen on par you would have to re-invent its entire platform. You would have to widen the car, reduce its roll center, make it more aerodynamic, get rid of the unibody and incorporate a cocoon style structure to which the suspension systems are attached to. I can’t even go on because it is that ridiculous to talk about. It would take so much more than just having full control over caster, camber, and monkey spank stuff like that. You would be lucky to hang with one of these things in a NASCAR. C’mon people.

Just read a bit about this car and look at the stance and how its is about as wide as a semi.

The car no 3rd gen will ever touch

By the way, I don't even like ferrari's.

 

If people thought more like this, then cars such as "The Sledgehammer" (RIP John Lingenfelter), would never of become a reality. Now, I know 'sledge' was a Corvette....but the same principle applies here.

Look at the speeds that Gale Banks was able to achieve (I believe it's still a world record) in his Third Generation Firebird. Such a speed couldn't even be fathomed by an Enzo.

Between top speeds proven by Gale, and 1/4 mile times proven by Lingenfelter...it's now only a matter of 'handling' for our cars. Like I said in another post, just take a look at what Kenny Brown was able to do for the Fox chassis all these years.

It can be done.

 

I agree and it isn't that hard to best an Enzo in a straight line. I am talking about the complete package. How many cars do you know that run 10's and can outhandle most fully prepped road race cars? Top speed doesn't mean much. For the single Enzo that runs 10's there are hundreds of 3rd gens that run 9's. I realize that. The difference comes in the rest of the package. Those cars could not even compete on a circuit becasue they are stricktly set up for straight line. Even if you made them handeling cars with the same powerplant that lets them run 9's their ET's would drop so much the Enzo would be the last one laughing. The Sledge was a vette and not a 3rd gen so the same principals do not apply. They are completely different vehicles. The only way to have a car that can dominate in both realms of racing you would have to spend years desgning and integrating the best vehicle technology available to man. You would have to test it and use exotic parts and materials that out perform any other type of automotive system out there. You would then have to name it. The name Enzo comes to mind.

It can't be done. Take a few IC engines and vehicle performance courses and you will see why. I love 3rd gens to death, but they are a far cry from a hand built race car integrated with the best parts to ever cross the pavement.

 

who said anything about the enzo anyway? i mentioned its weight but not saying it could be beaten

i ment other exotics like 360 modena, and lambos and such, porshe. and i ment hang with and possibly beat. that would be nice. 11inch wide wheels all around on a thirdgen with proper spring/shock rates, i can see it hanging quite well. exotics power can EASILY be accomplished. 500-600hp is not that much to beat with a turbo/supercharger setup. LOL

 

I agree 100%.

 

I can see as lot of people here have fallen prey to marketing and do not see a car for what it truly is - a vehicle for transport.

Just because something is using carbon fiber this and exotic part that doesn't mean its any better. Its the performance that speaks for itself, aesthetics and prestige do not add any performance - that is why the average 911 driver is not willing to race - they don't know how, nor want to do anythign but be seen in it.

Sure, if you mod a thirdgen to Carrera GT levels, its not 100% a thirdgen anymore - sure..... Just the same as a Carrera GT is similar to a 911 Carrera. And I don't think a car that uses simple replacement parts (as opposed to big red's tube chassis) is anything but a street car (if its reliable enough to be run on the street).

 

I know this thread started with the Enzo and to try and compare a 3rd gen to cars in that leauge is just silly. There's a difference between a super car and an exotic. If you come out of the stratosphere and start talking 360's and Porsches then yes you could build a thirgen that could mix it up on the track/street and be a lot of fun. A strong N/A smallblock(450hp/ish) could net you the required horse power and reliability, 6-speed swap, 4-wheel race level brake kit, rear end upgrades, chassis bracing and the best over the counter suspension components with good rubber woud put you in the hunt. Close enough that it would probably be a drivers race.
Enzo's and Carerra GT's and no more for transport than an Alcohol funny car. They are toys for the rich. There is no class for them to run in sanctioned races, and there is no where to exploit them on the street. They were built to showcase the ultimate expression of the available technologies. Yes they are markerting tools, just like Ford's new GT-40. They generate interest in the brand and hopefully a trickle down effect will take place and they'll sell more 360's or whatever. But that in no way diminishes the level of performance and civility these cars achieve. The Enzo/GT cars don't have carbon cause carbon cool, they use the materials and build techniques they do because it is the best current material and technology.

 

Well I hadn't planned on starting an uproar, but it has been interesting seeing people's opinions on what the third gens can potentially do!

In almost no way would I personally try to actually take on such a car as an enzo with any belief that I would win without putting similar time and money into such a project as an enzo.

But I would like to point out that as much as the ability of what a car can do relies on the design, an equal, if not more, of what a car can do relies on the skill of the driver. I've seen countless street races where a driver has a car that should utterly destroy the competition go no-where as he burns a clutch up. I once watched a friend lose to a slightly modified '94 Prelude on a road course, not because of the car (he had a viper hehe) but b/c he didn't know how to drive the car; he would constantly brake late and then compensate by overpowering through the corner. Even though he could cut most of the distance down in the straights he never passed the prelude beyond the start!

I believe if you're trully gonna put that much money into a car, whether it's building a third gen up, or spending the money on an enzo, please devote the time to learn what the car can do and how to utilize it! 99% of people who buy a Porsche will NEVER utilize more than %30 of what the car is cabable of!

OK, enough of my rambling, I'm gonna see if mr. Enzo is out for a drive hehe

 

This thread has brought up some good points. My take is that their are millions of Third-Gens in the world and they represent both an era of time and a platform for millions of enthusiasts to build off of, while these million dollar cars are nothing more than something for the world to drool over and a select few spoiled people to own, and with that comes a lack of fellow owner support and aftermarket, with no-one to share your love for the car with, while with our cars you have millions of others with the same passion and thus you can have lots more fun enjoying them...and you can make it your own....and one more thing...can someone name any car that you can buy for under even 50k that will both beat an Enzo in a straight line and handling after you modify it???

 

Exactly!

As for this on-going debate about a Third Generation vs and Enzo.... I think the price tag for such an exotic is what's taking everybody's mind's off of the big picture. Yes, a Third Generation can be built to slaughter an Enzo!

People are saying. "If you do that much work to a Third Generation F-Body, it can no longer be considered a Third Generation F-Body anymore...", well that's true. But then again, this same concept pertains to engine swaps as well, being that our cars did not come with LT1's and LS1's.

If Calloway's team decided to produce and market an exotic Third Generation F-Body, then sell it for well over six figures, people would have absolutely no problem in comparing their creation to the Enzo. It would still be a Third Generation F-Body, no? It's just now the illusion of a 'Calloway' concept, along with a price tag that exceeds $100,000.00, that would 'suddenly' force it into the Enzo's league.

Just my opinion...

 

This is a great point. It can be done in a straight line but not the whole package. The whole packege is what makes this car unreal. You can take any vette, viper, LS1 car etc etc and boost it to run low 10's but at that point the car is almost unstreetable (set up to run straight) and at a cost higher than 50k. There is a guy in our local club that bought a new 35th TA and fabbed up his own twin turbo to it. With about $6k in suspension, cage, tranny and rear end mods his $3k plus turbo set up has him running a best of 9.85 at 146. However, his car is extremely un-streetable and cost him right around the $50k mark to complete. It is also completly set up to go straight. I have no doubt my cavalier would kill it on a road course. This is what makes the enzo just incredibale. It can perfrom dominately in all aspects of automotive performance.

 

not to start another debate but ive seen numerous incredibly streetable 10 second turbo cars.......a black ls1 camaro in my town as a matter of fact runs 10.4x and drives like a stock ls1, minus the exhaust tone

and we do need to clear things up...thirdgens can be made to handle with exotics but not supercars like some1 previously said. enzo's, carrera gt's, ford gt's, even the new z06 are the pinnacle of auto engeneering but a 360 modena, thats nothing