I am going to go on for a few here. This is all my opinion here.

The scene is changing. The writing is on the wall. Cars are becoming more efficient at making power everyday. It is no longer a matter of who has a badder car anymore. Its who is willing to put more money into their car. Who is crazier. Who is willing to get their setup on the edge of streetable. Who is willing to have a 282+ duration cam on the street. 4000rpm and higher stall converters. Engines barely staying under 180*F.

Its not a matter of who has the most displacement or the largest turbo. Its who is willing to go the extra step to be faster than the rest.

 

well said vwdave, well said. with that being said, pretty much the same as what i said earlier. our $5k, beaten down, 20 yr. old cars running with new $22k cars, man, that leaves us with $17k to drop into our cars to be a little more fair. so just imagine if you had all that to drop into your third gen, all at once. then it's more fair. if you're smart enough to do the math, you'd more than smoke the hell out of an srt-4, hell, you'd smoke damn near anything you find on the street.

 

1. Thanks.

2. When was the last time you had $22k sitting in your pocket to go buy a car. I paid $24k for my Jetta, but not all at once. I am paying $480 a month.

Youre just saving a car payment. You dont physically have that money sitting in your mattress waiting to be sent to summit or jegs.

 

Also, name calling makes you real smart!

 

yeah, i know the feeling of car payments all too well, lol. i just think that if it is so important to beat a stock srt-4, how's wheelstandin87 gonna feel when some srt-4 owner debadges, removes the wing, and sleepers it with a stage3-R and rips him a new a-hole. he could go s/c, t/c, juice it, what ever to beat that stock one, but he'll be devastated by a fwd 400hp NEON!!! i get weary when my wife talks about getting the neon a stage 2 or 3, only because i know i'll have to spend the extra money to make sure i'll still smoke her, hehehe!!

 

When a used Weiand 142/144 S/C is cheaper than gears/stall/cam, why would you go with the gears/stall/cam? In fact, as long as you've got a carb motor that has acceptable compression and isn't pushing 450+ HP, why would you not get an $600-$800 used/$1500 new supercharger? The 142 uses an SBC intake. It will still work perfectly on a 350 or 383. The tech article on here is simple enough to follow for the install, these things don't take a rocket scientist to setup.

I'm sorry, while gears/cam/stall are very important to a build, a mild 305 f-body with gears/cam/stall vs. the mild 305 f-body with 3-6 lbs. of boost is going to lose everytime, given traction for the S/C car. I know it sounds like I'm a freakin Weiand salesman, but honestly, for a build like this, there isn't a better bang for buck mod by a longshot, unless your hellbent on keeping your stock hood or staying N/A. I think they (the 142s) are one of the best performance deals out there for the SBC.

 

*Vomits*

 

the roots blower sounds great, but with a 20 yr. old powertrain, i think not doing the essential internals is a de de de move. while boosting even low levels like you say, you are constantly producing a stronger level of stress on the engine at ALL times. then hammer it and pray, oh man. best bang for your buck, close but no cigar. he might as well spray, at least its not spraying every second the engine is running. let's not forget the used posi too, man i hate to say it, but, DE DE DE!!! let's use something someone else probably beat the hell out of and hope is will keep working properly with an aging car that just got a use blower on it. might work for a couple of smashes of the go pedal, but what happens when you tromp on it when it really counts and your assed out like a fat chick in a bikini looking like a retard with bolts here and shards of steel there, not to mention fluids all over the place. since there was the comparison to honda engines earlier, this to me sounds like a honda tuner, used unreliable parts!!! i believe stu said it earlier, build a better engine. once you do that, work your drive train. it may take a while to do, but the sheer enjoyment of pulling up to some schmuck who spent $50k on his car and knows nothing about it, and you spank him like there's no tomorrow, now thats pure fun. no disrespect meant to anyone, but i never replace parts on my car with used ones. would you use used brakes on your car, i sure as hell wouldnt. so why anything else. body wise, whatever! interior wise, whatever! but the actual performing parts of the car, i stand by replacing with new reliable parts. sorry if this is too long for some of you.

 

One can look at the rotors on the used roots S/C and tell if they're in good shape or not. It's honestly not that hard to keep yourself from getting ripped off. Most ones on eBay have pictures of the rotors because of this reason. There are more than a few people I know who have picked up used roots blowers and had no such problems, and more than a few people on these boards who are boosting 20 year old motors under 7 psi and manage not to blow up, given conservative timing. 89JYTurbo comes to mind. He's driven an L98 with 6 lbs of boost for 2 or 3 years now. The thing to keep in mind about an entry level blower like a 142, is that most people sell them because they want a higher boost S/C like a 10-71. And again, the new 142s are only $1500, half of what you pay for most forced induction systems.

I'm kinda lost on the Honda comment. Don't get me wrong, I hate Hondas because they are from Japan, but they aren't unreliable, not hardly. Again, many mildly boosted stock internal Hondas with no problems out there.

The supercharger I'm mentioning is cheap, plain and simple. He'd probably want it after the rebuild anyways. Might as well have fun with the 305 while it lasts, and then reuse the blower on another motor. It's not like he's setting up a 12:1 305 here, we're talking about 4 psi (with the factory 142 pulley) on a 9:1 305. It's not really that wild of a setup, at all. Plenty of motors seem to last without randomly grenading at stoplights with similar setups.

Used nitrous setups are also cheap, but you WILL run a better ET with the S/C, and a used 142 is about the same price as a new 100 shot kit.

And I did mention the posi the first time I gave him advice on this topic.

 

You hate something because it's from Japan? That's about as dumb as it gets.



On another note, are you saying that you can just buy some $800 supercharger, and slap it on with zero additional parts? No fuel tunning? Nothing? I find that hard to believe. That's like me saying, "Well, I can get a brand new fairly large turbo for only $850." Completely leaving out the $2,500 dollars of other parts necessary to piece the whole system together.


The main reason why you don't build a car just to beat an SRT-4 Neon is that all he has to do is go out and buy a $50 MBC (or make his own for $20) and beat you again.

 

Ok well I am wheelstanding's friend and I was there to actually witness this race. I just want to add in the fact that the lg4 has 208,000 miles on it and barely leaks oil. The kid with the SRT-4 had to take his car back to the dealer at 5000 miles cause he had a major oil leak. I do no care how fast his car is, if its built like junk, then thats what it is.

 

He could have hit something in the road......

 

Not really. If your whole family is employed in say the steel or auto industry here, there is plenty of good reason to dislike a car made in japan. Its a matter of supporting your own.

 

Just go race the kid. Anything can happen.

 

Doesn't matter what industry you are in. Preventing free trade and commerce on a global scale is MUCH worse than job protection, which I'm also not too fond of.

Anyway.....get a better car, and race slower cars, then you'll be happy.

 

WheelStandin87 it says in your info you have an 87 305 and a 89. Do you have a 350 in the 89?

 

In principle I agree with stu in reality I agree with ljnowell. Domestic companies are at a direct disadvantage when on a manufacturing level in this country compared to foreign controlled ones. Foreign companies get HUGE incentives to bring their business here. Many are exempt from property tax, school tax, health care costs, labor contracts, EPA rules and the list goes on. They only come to this county because many of our beloved politicians grant them these exemptions because the few jobs it creates will look good when it comes vote counting time. It is extremely profitable for foreign companies to make stuff here yet that money is shipped right back overseas. In this country the cost of an American worker in a domestic company is exponentially higher than it is for the same employee in a foreign company. If the US made all manufactures, foreign or domestic, abide by the same standards than I wouldn’t have a problem. Domestic manufactures in this country cannot be competitive in this nature. I don’t hate foreign companies at all. Instead I hate the idiots who grant corporations free rides with little regard for consequence. When consequence arises (it does every day now in this country and our paychecks reflect this) they blame it on domestic companies’ “inability to be competitive”. It is a smoke screen that so many people in this country buy. The media is the biggest offender of this. Here is an interesting article. I had some other good ones, far better than this, but seem to have lost them. Ones that were based on production sales, marketing scams, quality, and a bunch of other stuff that foreign companies get away with but would make front page news with the big three..

http://www.howtobuyamerican.com/cont....shtml#Pontiac


Sorry, back on topic now.

 

Get married, have a kid. Then lose your job due to the market being flooded with cheap inferior japanese steel.

You'll figure it out.

 

Losing a race is losing a race. And nothing about "gay turbos", volumetric efficiency, nitrous, blowers, or whatever matters when you're seeing tailights. I can't very well roll my window down after getting my emblems blown off and yell "Yeah, well you've got a gay turbo man!!! It's not fair!!!" A fast car is just that.

305s can be made fast- It's a matter of how fast do you wanna go and how much do you want to spend(we've all heard that one). At some point, it will become more financially obvious to go to a 350. If it is your goal to outrun this Neon, I think it would be a challenge to do it with a 305 but a fun one at that. He'd probably never be able to tell the two apart unless you told him though.

I'd like to put my two cents in about the domestic/import thing also. Its become very popular when closing factories, laying off, or freezing wages in this country to blame everything that allows the blue collar guy to earn a living. Health care, wages, pensions- You name it. I've read articles where companies made only 3 million profit this quarter which is down from 3.5 last quarter, so wages are frozen or the factory is moving to Mexico so they can be more competitive. It's greed and we all know it. When American corporations stop paying upper management obscene salaries for mediocrity, giving megabucks to political parties and hacks(read recent headlines), and actually run their companies with a sense of right and wrong(including employing Americans) along with the bottom line, then we will see some light at the end of the tunnel. As far as giving incentives to locate manufacturing facilities, that money is spent many times over in the local economy. And it also pales in comparison to what we're spending overseas in the sand which we'll by paying for when I'm long gone. Healthcare is an issue, but pharmaceuticals and HMOs are two of the most highly profitable industries in the US, so you tell me who is getting screwed? My company(a very large American company based in Illinois) made a 23% PROFIT on it's health care program, yet it raised my premiums by 34 dollars a month for 2006. I received a financial statement in the mail detailing this, and I went ballistic. Did I just pay for new vacation digs for the CEO or perhaps to elect my next congressman?

Sorry for the rant- I say say beat him with the 305. Plan your combination wisely, and give him some Camaro tailight recognition lessons.

 

If the market was really flooded with inferior steel, then your cars would cost less. I probably won't have to worry about losing my job because of the profession that I chose.

The only one of those things that Shifty mentioned that I have a hard time believeing is the lessened EPA standards. I would think that all the home grown watch dogs of the country would sniff that out immediately.

I'll have to read that article, I'm interested.

P.S. I'm still angry about finding out that my company charges insane amounts of money to use the e-mail that they make us use.

 

1. pertaining to the srt-4 w/ oil problems @ 5k miles, that lil tard is racing before the damn engine is even broken in, DUH!
2. as a welder/fabricator, i have noticed over the last 5 years a great deal of difference in the quality of our steel. these days vendors/manufacturers could give a rat's *** how well the steel is, unless you want to pay ridiculous prices, you're getting low grade junk. i spend more time prepping my material than fitting and welding combined.
3. stu, your comment on needing the extra 2500 bux to properly install the s/c was straight to the point. anything you do to alter your engine will require more alterations for your engine to get the full benefit of a new mod.
4. you just gotta love the foreign cars that are made here in the usa, irony at its finest. but i stand if its built here, it provides jobs to our own and its built with quality i trust.

 

Just go get a junkyard turbo for $25, buy a $100 rebuild kit for it, find someone that can weld and weld it up, buy some hoses, and blow through carb. Will be cheaper than the 142 (if done right) and will add more power. My 3.1 runs 13.9's @ 100mph (about equivelant to an SRT-4) in a heavier car with FWD (****tier 60's) with 8.5psi. 8.5psi on your car would be insane. 15psi should give you a 100% increase in power, so 8.5psi would be over 50% gain. Thats what I would do anyways...

Shawn

 

I will try to find the article that goes into more detail about this. I will pick on Honda only because they have two plants within 20 minutes of me and I can make a good geographic example. I have been in their plants and did a major design project for them back when I was in school as well. Also, within a two hour drive I can be at most automotive plants (and see the surroundings or internals) that make product for the whole world. The Honda engine plant is in Anna Ohio which has a population of minus five and is tucked off the interstate in the middle of nowhere halfway between Dayton and Lima. The car plant is located on the outside of Marysville (very small town) and is also located in the middle of nowhere, between Columbus and Lima. I had an old article/source that explained that they were in the middle of nowhere so that they could in essence have more environmental leniency. However, my argument is kinda useless because I lost that source. The Ford engine plant however is right in the middle of Lima and the GM truck and bus plant is right in the smack dab of Dayton. Areas/zones all of which have the most strict environmental rules and greater populations than the Honda towns. This is one small example but the trend is widespread across the country.

This country needs to have the same rules in order to play the business game fairly. Whenever they do that I will be more inclined to accept products that could be better.

 

It doesnt QUITE work that way. If it did, then you can answer this for me.

My K03s puts out 20psi of boost. I dyno at about 185-190 to the wheels. Now, a GT28RS turbo putting out about 18psi will make about 280-300 to the wheels. Why is that? Please have it based on your theory.

 

That's not sneaking under any radar though, any factory could be built further away from residential and commercial areas and be able to get away with more things. The reason the USA plants are smack dab in the city is because they either built cities around them, or put them in the city when no one cared about having a factory in the city (I imagine there was less housing in the city 70 years ago). The import plants came into the game way later. Even if they wanted to be right in the middle of the city, I doubt that there'd be room.

Oh yeah, and anyone who thinks that the rest of a turbo kit consists of just "some hoses and tubes" is sorely mistaken and in for a BIG surprise if they ever plan on building one from scratch.

 

If you think you need $2500 in parts to bolt on a 4 psi roots blower on a CARB motor, you are on crack. If you think you need $500 in parts, you are very misguided. Honestly, we're talking about a fuel system that doesn't require more than about 10 psi TOPS. Carb fuel pumps are VERY inexpensive, and if he converted from TPI to carb, then the one he already has is probably adequate. From there it's only a matter of making sure your carb is tuned rich enough for a safe base tune, and your timing is retarded enough for a safe base tune. With as many people out there as there are with these blowers, one can get a pretty good idea for both by looking around on the net for tech articles or forum discussions.

You are a very knowledgeable person, Stu, but a mild roots blower install job bears very little resemblence the work required to install a turbocharger.

 

I never said it cost $2,500. I said that's what a solid turbo set-up would cost. What I was asking was how much all the unmentioned extras would cost, because I have no idea.

 

I'm a patriotic SOB. If I can avoid buying imported products from ANYWHERE, I do. Japanese companies not only have no anti-trust laws like our American companies do, they also have EXTREMELY limiting laws regarding American (or any other imported) products being sold in Japan. Even if the market was fair though, I'd buy American. It's a matter of principle, and in the end, opinion. Doesn't make me a better man than you, and you thinking that I'm a blindly radical conservative doesn't make you any smarter than me. I could pull out pages upon pages about how maliciously aggressive the Japanese economic structure and global trade setup is, but nobody really cares, and I'd rather not pollute this thread with politics.

 

I misunderstood then. My apologies.

 

Oh I know all about it.

 

IF? I guess you dont have a TV or read the news. The government has been adding tarriffs to asian steel and subsidizing the American market for a long time. "Our" cars dont cost less because we buy Ford predominately. There is a reason for this. Ford has kept National Steel, and now US Steel open for a long time. If you want to survive you have to take care of your own.

Im glad you dont have to worry about losing your job. Other people arent in the same situation, and thier jobs mean thier families livelihood.

 

......Who cares what he thinks

 

SRT-4 talks trash still becuase he beat me. Its narrowing down to beating this one car. i bought a new motor in trans a 350 and a 350 turbo tranny which im having both rebuilt and i will need to get a rearend but i should be beating him now. how should i rebuild the 350 im boring it .30 over and what else do you guys think would crush the SRT-4???

 

Everyone tell me how much you hate SRT-4's please and if you like them sell your Camaro to get one!!!!!

 

Im glad that this SRT-4 gives me motivation to make my car faster and better than a 4 cylinder!!!!

 

YYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWW JIM-BOB!!! GET URSELF SOME FUELIE HEADS, A 240+ DURATION SOLID LIFTER CAM, AND A HOLLEY 950 CARBURATUR AND U'LL BEAT THAT LITTLE PIP-SQEAK EMPORT LUSER!!!! SHOW THAT DODGE WHAT AMERICAN MUSCLE CAN DO!!!!!

*Salutes the american flag on the porch*

 

i already have both, you're still set on beating this one car. you went out and got a new engine and trans to rebuild and now your looking for a rear, good. build it right and smoke his ***, but hope in the mean time he isn't doing the same thing. the same amount it costs to have your engine and trans rebuilt is what he would need to upgrade to stage 3, then your screwed!!! 400hp out of a 2900lb car will destroy you if he can handle it. build yours mean man, straight up loping when you pull up beside and you might just scare him enough that he won't want to talk **** anymore, hehehe! good luck!!

 

He can use that $1000 he just won off that cabrio ( ) to finally beat that SRT4 that has his bowels in a uproar.

 

Im buying new heads for my new motor with the 1000. Im thinking about getting edelbrock performer aluminum heads. I hear that there extrememly good heads.

 

Do a search, but ya EdelBrock heads can add 40+ hp.

 

Here is a good thread about edelbrock heads vs trick flow




https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=338433

 

Before you swap everything NITROUS do a 150 shot with about 20psi in your tires and a hot smokey burn out before you launch, spray as soon as the car hooks, that should do it and if it doesn't you'll have the nitrous kit for your new motor.

 

wtf just lock this already

 

Yup, just to let you know, we still have not beaten the damn srt-4 and just to add onto it, the next time we seen him, a turbo talon beat us. This sucks lol.