89GTASC

Hi all,
I am a bit confused and wondered if someone might can help me.

I have a 89 GTA with 5.7TPI & 3.27 rear axle ratio, AUTOMATIC. And when I punch the gas from a dead stop, it does not disappoint me. It breaks the tires loose for me easy! (& Excitingly) & yes it it limited slip.

So when I test drove a 2013 Mustang 5.0 AUTOMATIC with a 3.15 rear axle ratio, I was sadly dissappointed when I punch the gas from a dead stop. And the same with the Camaro SS even though it also had a 3.27 rear axle ratio. I mean they broke loose (A little) But not immediately and not as exciting).

I did turn off traction control. Is there something else preventing the car from tires breaking loose? I was wondering if it was something called STABILITY CONTROL that I am hearing about?

I was wondering maybe it was OLD GAS? But I filled up the Mustang with fresh gas, so that was not it there.

1 salesman tried to tell me it was the size tires & extra grip. But my tires are pretty big in the rear of my GTA so I dont know.

Any idea's, I'd appreciate it.
Thanks
--
James

Guest

3rdgens are just better (in the 3rdgen way...) the 2010 K-meros are NOT Camaros....

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

It may be stabilitrak on gm but not sure if the ss maros have it or not. My truck does with the same 6.2l. Turning traction control off is not enough. It wont spin much with it. Need to hold it off til stabilitrak is off then all fun begins

Now the other thing is where the power is made. Gm lsx and new coyote dont make alot of off idle power. They make more midrange and high rpm. Thats why they like deeper gears and higher stall converters so much.

My 99 trans am with 2.73's was lazy off idle until 3000 rpm. Just doesnt have the short powerband like tpi cars so its going to feel different

musicfreako

iTrader: (1)

NO torque down low. That's where the TPI's shined. Need a manual in those new cars. Or a higher stall converter

tzim350HO

Maybe you should walk outside and shoot yourself in the foot for considering a mustang.......

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Burning rubber doesn't win races. At the track, these two cars will pull a lower sixty foot than your '89 GTA without blowing the tires, so what your feeling in your GTA is not really performance, it is more of psychological enjoyment than anything else. While your burning rubber from a dead stop, even the Hyundai will be pulling away from you, and manufacturers know this ahead of time, so they take it easy with the acceleration enrichment programming in the factory tune...

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

hahahahaha

355sleeper

iTrader: (4)

I would rock a new grabber blue boss 302, they are sexxxy. I dont see what the big deal is really? The quad cam coyote would be a pain to swap cams on though

89GTASC

Thanks. This information made some sense to me.

I could care less about winning races if the fun factor is not there.

I once had a 03 Mitsubishi Evolution VIII with impressive acceleration stat #'s. It would smoke my GTA easily, but I did not enjoy driving it. Fun factor not there. I bought it modified with about 400hp(315AWHP), stock was about 276hp(~210AWHP). It was all-wheel drive 5 speed manual. Very fast 0-60 & 1/4 mile time #'s. The plan was the newer EVO would replace my GTA, but that plan backfired and just made me appreciate my GTA that much more. I got rid of the car after 1 year of stuggling to be happy with it. And I've had my GTA for 10+ years now.

I test drove both the mustang and camaro for comparison purposes.

I know the new mustang & camaro are faster than my GTA. That was not my question. I was just trying to figure out why I was dissappointed with the new mustang/camaro V8 automatics when I punched the gas from a dead stop and it did not jump how I thought it would.

I also recently test drove a V6 02 Firebird with automatic and was surprised at how it jumped 0-40ish. The wheels did not spin but boy did it jump out there real strong from a dead stop. I did further research and found out they offered a "V6 performance package" that included a 3.42 limited slip differential. Before that, I had always thought every V6 camaro/firebird were open differentials. The car only had 200hp/225tq but to me felt very impressive off the line.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Sadly, not feeling them as much as I used to. I would rock the new engines in an old notchback though, that's for damn sure...



To each their own, but this is a racing forum though, and spinning will immediately turn a ten second car into a fourteen second car. But I digress...

89GTASC

Ahh.. Point well taken. I was looking for a more general discussion thread. I looked and thought I might have posted in the drivetrain thread section, but seemed like here was more logical. I definately probably posted my question to the wrong thread LOL. But thanks for giving me information none the less.

I had this thought, just cuz its fast doesn't mean its fun, but then after thought was same could be said for fun, just cuz its fun, doesn't mean its fast.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

The problem with manufacturers is they don't look at the big picture, while abiding by what they are allowed to push through the door. They need to make the vehicle as fast as possible with what it leaves the factory with, street tires. If we tweak the AE/SA in the factory tune, add a larger stall speed, then that Mustang you drove would rip like there is no tomorrow. But the problem there is that manufacturers know ahead of time that it wouldn't be feasible with the tires that it leaves with, and it would just relegate the car to tire spinning, and the magazines would have a field day boasting how the new Mustang can only muster fourteen seconds from the factory because it can't hook. If the new Mustangs were released with factory drag radials that can hook, then I could see them tweaking the AE/SA ahead of time, but with a stock stall and crummy tires, it would be a waste of horsepower to them, leading to complaints...

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Also some of the early auto camaro ss cars had crappy tunes from factory. Not sure why but they were dogs. Manual cars are much faster in stock form. After a good tune to the engine and trans ecm tables however the cars wake up but do need gear to run best

89GTASC

Great Point. I'm not sure what you mean yet by AE/SA(what does that stand for?), but I think I got the jist of it, something to do with tuning for max power on the low end.

Nice collection of cars btw; 89 TTA, GTR, and 5.0 turbo?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

That is just the acronym for acceleration enrichment and spark advance. Even when I reworked the stock tune on my LB9 engine, that alone made a tremendous difference when I threw on some drag radials without changing anything else...

The GTA is actually a worked 305 with a turbo system that I built for it, running a Bullseye turbo. More than likely selling it, but I'd like to get some more video of it at the track first before I do so. So far it pulled a pretty quick Grand National on the highway from a roll, but I am saving all that video for another thread that I eventually start...

89GTASC

I see. Well I am a little bit sad to hear about this ae/sa thing, but it helps explains some things for me. How easy or difficult is it to change the AE/SA? Would I have to get the car "tuned" by somebody to alter that? Would the tune the comes from a diablosport DSP alter the AE/SA enough that I would notice?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

For which car, your '89 GTA?

89GTASC

No. For a new(11-13) automatic 5.0 Mustang or new (10-13) automatic SS Camaro.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Haven't touched a handheld in a very long time, and I believe the DiabloSport's have a timing advance scale from -40 to +10, but RPM range is limited though, which definitely helps, but I prefer getting deeper than that with my tunes...

89GTASC

To me, I am looking at the AE/SA as another form of traction control. At least in the case of automatics. I basically understood what you said to me as that from the factory on purpose they did not do enough AE/SA to prevent excessive wheelspin on the low end.
So I am basically trying to figure out how you would go about undoing that? I may be misunderstanding you, becuase you asked me if I was asking about my 89GTA. And my answer to your previous question is no way, my AE/SA is just fine to me on my 89GTA.

If I was trying to win a race, and I was worried about I could not control excessive tire spin with my right foot, then yes I'd put traction control on. (I'm more talking about a new mustang/camaro here)

But when it comes time to "have fun", I don't want the computer to be limiting the power to the wheels, so thus I'd take traction control off.

And my interpretation of what you descibed AE/SA to me; for me; I feel that is another form of traction control, and so I'm asking how would you go about removing it? But it this case how would "improve" the AE/SA to help you put more power to the wheels in the lower rpm's, and in my case an automatic at that.

I don't know alot about computer tuning; thus the questioning; but you kinda already answered my question for the most part.

lunati397

third gens are around 3500 lbs the new cars are around 4500 to 5300 all that safety and comfort stuff

that will give you that snap feel

I had my truck at the dealership and they gave me a loaner (my choice) so i got a standard new 5.0 and had fun with it let the wife learn stick on it and tore it up all over town it felt soft almost to comfortable

want a test drive take a 2013 F250 or chevy 2500 for a ride they have the tq to throw you in the seat

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Actually, you should look at it that way. These vehicles get tested over and over again years and years before they are released, and this is how they dial them in for the consumer. If the new owner wants to raise horsepower, fine tune their power, or throw stalls and sticky tires at them, then it is up to the purchaser to do what he or she has to so that the power can be put to the ground, otherwise it is wasted power and the manufacturers don't want to be responsible for that. Their job is to sell a car, so they detune them on purpose for the best performance possible to work in conjunction with the parts that they originally come with. If cars came with slicks and higher stalls, then the tunes would of course be more aggressive before they leave the factory, but they don't come with slicks and high stalls, so they need to keep the tune moderate for the overall driving experience, not just focus on the 1/4 mile...


Bingo. Unless we see some AWD Camaro's and Mustang's, power down low is essentially usless with stock tires, so they leave those upgrades to the buyer. All new cars have the potential to run way faster than they do from the factory with a few tweaks in the tune, but with those tweaks you need to compensate with planting the power better, something they don't worry about after the car sells, but know can be accomplished very easily...

If your looking to fry your tires with a new Mustang running an automatic, get a stall, disable traction control, and tweak your timing and fueling with an aftermarket computer control module like Megasquirt. The stock management isn't as easy to work with, and even handhelds are limited at low RPM's...

I brought up your GTA because you already own it. Going with XFI, Megasquirt or Big Stuff will make that new Mustang do whatever you want it to, but if your working with the stock computer with a handheld for that Mustang it can be very limited. Just frying the tires is something that cane be done quite easily, though...

But just like anything else, traction control needs to be dialed in as well. Proper weight transfer, proper wheel size and tread to work with your setup and you won't even need traction control to win a race, in fact, traction control cane even be a hindrance at times when racing...

There is more to it than just switching traction control off, because traction control comes in many forms; electronic brake friction, spark retarding and limiting throttle fuel. Disabling traction control doesn't correct everything at one time...

You can't entirely remove it with a handheld, you can only switch it off, then "tweak" it in some areas with a handheld. If you switch to an aftermarket engine controller, then the sky is the limit...

More fuel during accleration enrichment equates to more power, and more timing allows for peak cylinder pressures precisioning...

When it comes to making an engine run correctly, all the computer really does is meter the amount of fuel with the amount of air that the engine is taking in during its' revolution, and during this process the timing of that combustion needs to be at its' most efficient point possible. That is all that it is doing...

Phenom-1

Last Year I test drove a (then) New 2011 Camaro SS outside my Uncles chevy dealership he had two of them sitting right outside, I test drove both of them, one was white which was an Auto, the Black one was the M6, All stock, I liked both cars but the M6 definitely had a little bit more of a wheel spin with Traction Control on than the Auto did, and it feels smooth to drive ( which my father loved ) but I crave the Thrusting force of the Torque that I'm used to tossing my neck back into the headrest on my 3rd Gen L98 1992 Z28 so I took T/C off and at the Green Light Floored both the M6 and Auto and I definitely got grip with the Auto better but I had a tough time noticing the difference between Auto and M6 in terms of which was faster 0-60, but overall in terms of mods and top speeds the LS3 M6 is faster and more cost effective unless your not looking to go over 110 mph then you would be happy with the Auto L99, I personally haven't driven the new Coyote GT but they say it's fast, of Course I have also seen a few videos that Prove it's not 'Truly' Faster than the LS3 SS Camaro. and even though the 5th Gens are faster than the 3rd Gens they are also Heavier and more refined, and on the side I do like the fact that when I would like to go fast and feel comfortable I can with the 5th Gens and not have as much neck snapping torque and feel more refined when I would like to just have a smoother and newer ride so Overall Great Car but when I want a Rugged Badass Outlaw Ride I have My 3rd Gen for it

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

Are you asking about your thirdgen?

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

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89GTASC

thanks all. is there a smart phone app for thirdgen.org? i have a free app that has over 100 different car discussion forums but thirdgen is not 1 of them. .
so doing this from my iphone and safari web browser is a pain.
tks street lethal for mentioning megasquirt and big stuff and all the helpful info.
tks lunati397 about telling of truck tq and descibing new mustang soft feel even w a stick.
tks phenom1 about 2011 camaro and describing soft feel.
tks orr89rocz & musicfreak for earlier.

i got more id like to say but sending b4 my session times out

89GTASC

tks all. yall made me realize it is probably more than just tires spinning but probably the softer feel of new cars.
i always thought finding the right rear axle ratio would do tge trick for me... which i still kinda think it should for the most part BUT other things involved.

AE/SA partly. dont get me wrong street lethal i dont super long wheel spins .. its more of the PUNCH feeling im lookn for in new cars. some1 else said snap neck ******* feel.

a part of is saddenned but perhaps i need to learn more about computertuning now.

i want to mention when i test drove a 2006-2010 dodge charger and challenger with a 3.08 ratio rear axle, it passed my test. i liked how it felt when i punched.
not quite as good as my GTA but for bigger car not bad. i felt like id wish to get it with a 3.23ish rear axle as mt gta probably would be cliser to same if it was 3.08 instead of 3.27.
i know they r slower than mustang n camaro but just saying i liked the punch factor so far better.
i am one of those guys trying to explore what rear axle ratio can i get from the factory and realizing my choices are limited from factory.
i think i need to explore how difficult it is to achieve that w aftermarket parts.
i know its a scary thing to just swap rear axle gears; can be done; but have to worry about it being done correctly or might have a terrible wine noise coming from it.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Keep in mind on factory tuning, cars arent as aggressive as they can be. 20-40 hp can be had in tuning and just about as much torque

UnstableAviator

I don't see how "punching the gas from a dead stop" is any type of test.

We've got a 72 Dart with a 318 (no power at all) and a clutch dump from a stop results in "impressive" wheelspin for quite a while. After that, you'd need a calendar to measure the acceleration to 90mph!

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I love those old 318 Mopar's, any pics or vids...?

conlinj

iTrader: (3)

A lot of the new cars have torque management built into the tune to save the transmissions. On my 2010 there are a couple different ways to turn of the traction control, since it is a 6spd car it has "competitive mode" and then you hold it in for full off. I know the autos do not have competitive mode, but you may have to long press the traction control button to completely disable it.

conlinj

iTrader: (3)

FYI

Also my 2009 Challenger had the "Go pack" so It had 3.92's with the 6speed. Great car I do miss it. My current 2010 Camaro has the 3.42s with the 6speed.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

If the autos do have that like my 6.2 auto 6spd truck there is still some torque management settings in the trans to help save on shifts. Good tune can unleash hard quick shifts and really drop et's at the track at expense of trans life. Cool systems but those changes wont necessarily help off idle romp feel. Thats all in the fuel/spark tune plus throttle response settings

89GTASC

ahh. tyvm. worth a try!

IMissMy86TA

I just want to express something that happened to me. I took my low mileage GTA to a Hyundai dealership last year and drove a new Genesis coupe. I was not looking for wheel spin but wanted to "feel" acceleration. The Coupe was doing 0-60 in the 5-6 second range while my GTA goes it is about 6.5. I drove them back to back and my GTA felt more powerful all-round and sounded much more powerful to boot. the GC sounded like it was being hurt to be run hard.
got back in the GTA and was like wow!

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Which one, the 2.0 Turbo w/manual, or the 3.8 w/track auto...?

IMissMy86TA

3.8 R-Spec with manual

TrueBlueZ28

Im fairly suprised nobody has hit on the other reason manufacturers do this. Most people have absolutely NO ability to control a car that is capable of breaking loose like that. So if they left the factory with such an agressive low end as theyre capable of those cars would get wrecked ALOT more often than they already do simply because we live in a world where most people have more dollars than they do sense...can you say liability lol.

Note i say most not all, we have all seen people who are hard pressed to control their econo box under moderately slick conditions....much less anything with real power. So in a futile attempt to make the world safer for morons were left with 'performance cars that are tuned so poorly on the low end that they're hard pressed to break loose and only deliver a fraction of the power possible until youre at a high enough speed that it wont spin and then the top speed is limited as well.

I apologize for any stupid typos (cell phone)

89GTASC

Tks conlinj; after reading your post i googled "how to turn traction control off in Camaro SS automatic" and found this helpful thread. Apparently I thought I had traction control OFF, but I did not hold down the traction control button for 5-10 seconds to fully disingage everything.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218701

I'll copy & paste the last post where a guy sums it up pretty well, but he doesn't talk about holding down the traction control button, with wheels straight, and pressing the brake down. But he does acknowledge the topic.
--- (04-24-2012, 06:38 PM )
To be honest, this is a very common complaint from stock L99 A6 owners in warmer weather when their car is fairly new (lower miles - new Pirelli tires).

The stock Pirellis grip very well in warmer weather. That combined with torque management and 3800+ lbs and the rear tires just don't want to spin.

My stock L99 A6 (when it was new - before tune) would not spin the rear tires in South Florida summer conditions. I'm talking about dead stop mashing the gas and all I got was 100% hook and no spin.

I could do a brake stall to get the rear tires to spin. But if I just mashed the gas from a dead stop, my tires hooked with no wheel spin.

A few things will correct this.
1. Tune- adds HP and even more Torque (reduction of torque management).
2. More miles on your car and Pirellis that have a few more miles on them.
3. Cooler weather - Pirellis get harder as temperatures go down.
(cool weather = more HP, cool tires, cool road temps) - combined these factors make it much easier to spin the tires.

And -don't let having excellent traction get you down. It's actually a great thing to have. My car which started out not being able to spin the tires is not the opposite. I have serious traction issues on the street. If I mash the gas anywhere under 25 mph, all I get is wheel spin (that's with 305/35/20 Drag Radials).
So once you start modding, you'll be spending money on wheels and tires to keep your tires from spinning.

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

New cars have things like VVT, or vtec to help increase lowend torque.

89GTASC

In short, for SAFETY reasons. It makes alot of sense. But I just don't like it. I don't like the idea of a computer limiting the power of the car. At least give me a button to turn traction control off. Well they do, but I did not realize you have to hold down the traction control button(5-10 seconds) to FULLY dis-engage everything. I like to regulate the power of the car with my right foot.

But yes your point is very valid, and very true, and that's why it is what it is. I heard they stopped production of T-Tops for safety reasons as well. Gotta love it(sarcasm).

IMissMy86TA

my bet is this is your big brother government trying to tell you what is best for you. they like driverless cars a lot too. just wait.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Like you, we were all there at one time or another, but it gets old pretty fast. One thing is for sure, I never want to hear tires chirp or have them spin ever again as far as I'm concerned. All it does for me is give me false knock readings, something I can live without. We normally see two to three tenths of a difference in ET with every tenth effected in our sixty foot, and that is tremendous. What does that mean you ask? Well, if you spin off the line and lose a full second (ten tenths) from what the car is capable of doing in your sixty foot, multiply that by two point five tenths, and that is your effected ET...

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

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ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

New cars have the best of both worlds. High hp and low end torque. They use Variable valve timing and or Vtec to help the low end.

Savage388

Honestly the ls3/l99 makes some pretty good torque low in the rev range according to the dyno which has it at over 300 ft,lbs at under 2000 rpm. plenty it would seem to roast tires, unless there are wide sticky meats in the back, a soft transmission and an irs system that has been worked over to just squat and go. I've never had the opportunity to drive one but it seems the bigger problem lies in the car, not the engine. sure its no tpi but there is sizable displacement gap to help the ls3 too. Here is a stock dyno on a corvette, same difference in the curve.http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-c...o-numbers.html

89GTASC

i also plan to test drive the new genesis. except im more interested in the base 2.0t w 8 speed automatic.

IMissMy86TA

this was the older genesis coupe (spring last year). could drift the car but again.. no real fun. I think our cars have much more torque so..yeah...

89GTASC

ahh. if u get a chance testdrive the new one and let me know your thoughts.
i havent driven one yet but in 2013 they upped the hp up to 274hp up from 210 previously and the 3.8 increased about 50hp too. car still weighs 3500 lbs.
i read a review saying maybe by 2016-2015 this car might be so
ething special, they are still figuring it out but the increase in HP was
a nice big step.

IMissMy86TA

Yeah I want to drive it too. The interior is much better too. this is actually one car I would think of giving up my third gen for but wont. I will just save up the money and wait for the GC to depreciate which they do quite well and have it as my DD. I dont know when I will find time as my car time is scarce and normally devoted to the GTA