Well.. now that I am in tears because of the sad news.. I feel bad for asking a few things....

Do L98's have a small or large connecting rod journal?

 

Oh yeah.... H-Beam or I-Beam rods? the H-Beams look stronger.. the set I am looking at are 600bux USD

 

depends on the type/metal/finish..I like H-rods though..FYI L98 rods worked with good bolts are good up to 450HP/5500-6000 RPM..What kind of motor are you building??

Daz

 

LT1 PM rods will hold everything together for most boost/spray applications as well.

 

I want to build a revver engine... peak horse around 5500 or more... I want to build it so that it has good N/A power, but can still handle some serious boost from a centrifugal blower (which will be more saving after the engine build up)... so, the boost requires forged rods, crank and pistons, right?

The H-Beams look so damn beefy.. I like.. I'm gonna see what the builder says tomorrow, hopefully he will help me out abit with some unanswered questions

 

"good power"..Building for N/A vs. Power Adder is totally different..Probably crank and rods..But for what compression??If your gonna have boost its a waste to make a high(relative)compression motor and limit your boost..$1000 for a set of rods??Whats this a dream build up?BTW You can those H-beams cheaper than that..

Daz

 

well, the engine will takea while to build.. I am taking my time, therfore saving money....

I was thinking 9.5:1 to 10:1 compression... then add boost later

 

with a 10:1 you will be asking for trouble even with 5-6 psi of boost unless you use alcohol..lol..You will make twice the power going for an 8:1 compression with 20lbs of boost..hmmm you want
1)a revver
2)high compression (9.5-10:1) is the max limit of iron heads IMO
3)blower

How much dollars/pwer levels are we looking at??

Even that 4 bolt 350 might not even be strong enough(2 bolt with splayed mains,girdle will be sooo much stronger)
Let see..
H-beams -$600
Forged(?) crank $1000
Forged pistons$500
heads $1000+
timing chain,cam,roller lifters,rockers,springs,pushrods,valve seals,locs $500(roller or not..I figure roller)
supercharger $3000

machine work/assembly parts (?)
doing it yourself ($0)
dont forget the intake mods,chip and hope your tranny hold up

BTW its in US dollars
Daz

 

add
ARP Wav-Locs $100
Gaskets $100
Injectors(if staying with FI) $200
Balancer $200

Daz

 

I was looking between 10l to 15k

And the blower is an add on I'd like to do... in the future

 

15K should be enough but its still crazy to have 10:1 comp with a blower..lol

Cant wait to see this monster buildup??When is it gonna start??

Daz

 

it starts with the block... and the bottom end gets built slowly, as the money comes in... it won't be ready till next winter... so it'll be a while...

I guess sticking with stock compression ratio would be best, if I plan on using a blower inthe future then?

 

check out the power adder board for combos..your compression depends on how much boost you want to put in it(and/or how strong the motor is)

Daz

 

Yeah.. I know that much... thats why I wanted the bottom end to be all forged... but I see your point about detonation though... I can always make a trip to the local air field

 

8.5:1 would be nice for a blower combo. 10:1 is kind of a waste...

Basically it's either compression or boost... not both.

 

yeah... but people add blowers to their stock L98 (stock internals) and they get some decent numbers...

 

You CAN run high compression with an artificial aspiration system- but the amount of fuel that has to be delivered to keep it all from blowing up starts to get absurd (or as mentioned above with an alcohol supplement- but this adds a whole new ballgame of expenses and hassles). THEN, if you're running a non-adjustable FI system - you'll be swapping injectors and chip and re-setting the fuel regulator every time you want to use the power adder (i.e. low- or no- boost vs. 'full-on' like the 5500+ rpm you mention). If this is a serious consideration- I would suggest that you plan on a very high-end aftermarket FI setup- not try to fiddle with an OEM-type system, period.

The other item not as yet mentioned: machining/balancing costs: If you're going to try to use a stock-type block for all this power- you want the machining done absolutely precisely and balancing of all the rotating assembly parts (individually and as a complete assembly). If a shop knows your plans and has any brains they will advise you of this before doing anything. SO- now you can start to think $1500.00+ without any parts involved for the bottom end to be built 'right' for this sort of application.

My opinion? I think if you're $10-15k estimate was for the engine itself without the s/c and EFI system required- you'll be fine and have a very nicely setup and well constructed unit. Add the s/c and updated EFI and you'll be off by at least $5 grand.

Once you cross the 500-600hp barrier with a smallblock you spend more dollars per HP to make it 'work' than going a more direct route like starting outright with a bigblock. The only way to avoid the big $$$ expenditures and [relatively] safely go over 500hp is with sporadic (i.e. not too often) use of an properly setup NOS system. That is, course if this is an engine that's supposed to last more than a few thousand kilometres. In fact- why all this talk of spending money like this on a smallblock? Why not just start with the bigblock where you can start at 500 hp for less than $10 grand and go from there- talking about forged everything and artificial aspiration later as you want to approach the 750/800hp level?

 

Hey Nathan.
Sounds like a real serious engine I'm envious.
Wanted to ask, what kind of shop rates are you guys paying for machining? Only reason I ask, is from other posts, it sounds pretty high. Not trying to advertise for this guy, but there is a shop here in town for $60 an hour. Top equipment, Sunnin 2000 balancer (only one in Canada) and know-how, with lots of race and blower experience.
Just thought you could save some bucks.
Also, IMHO, I doubt your 700R4 will handle that kind of power for long. Something to look into.
Martin.

 

Hey Martin how goes it ? Thx for the info I am looking for someone who can balance SBC internals. Sometime this winter after I collect all the pieces I'll need some work done and I don't want to use RH's for this work. Can you post or PM a number so I can give a call ?

thx,
RP.

 

OK, maybe I am advertising..loll. He's a friend

 

agreed agreed...I would ssay at least $2000 for a management system..(Speed Pro,F.A.S.T.,DFI) countless dyno times and an itake that will support it..Notice that the prices I mocked up are on low side..How would you pick a cam for something like this..Flowbench!!For $$per horsepower nothing beats cubic inches..Start with crate big block then hose it with nitrous..

added to expense
1)Fuel line..

Daz

 

I'm going to throw out a couple of other ideas here. If your budet is seriously between 10-15K US dollars, why not just buy a TTA. You can get one for that price, and have a factory (proven setup at that) forced induction car. It may not be a 'high rever', but you'll be putting down some serious power.

Another idea is to ditch TPI all together and drop in a LT1 from 4th gen. This is probably the easiest and cheapest way to solve your induction and ECM issues with a buildup like you are planning. The LT1 manifold isn't limited like the TPI setup, and there are tons of shops out there that know how to tune built LT1 setups. You could get a used setup with ECM for under $2000 CAN, have it rebuilt with decent parts for another $2500 or so. Ported LT1 heads can flow upwards of 270-280cfm @.500 with out killing your lowend. Thats better than stock AFR's do. Its very easy to get 450hp from a worked over LT1 mill. Plus, they already come with good rods

 

Can you put LT1 heads on a L98? Would 350 truck engine heads be worth putting on my L98? I say this because I have a set of them and was wondering today...

 

I agree with kevin v about the tta but for the money your talking about I would either build a small block turbo which would still allow driveability. If you go high rpm blower power you will have crap for power in the low rpms. You would need atleast 4.10 gears and your engine would be revving constantly. I will assume you dont care about gas, but it would also mean alot less engine life and alot more cooling problems.
This where turbos would help. Say your redline with a SC is at 7000 and your running max boost at 10psi on the street. That would mean at 3500 you boost would be around 5 and at 1750 a bit above 2 psi. Depending on what size turbos you run, you could easily have 3/4 boost at 1750 and max at less than 2300. Using a boost controller and a blow off valve which are not expensive at all, you could have your 10 psi at 2250rpm all the way to 7000!!! A much wider tourque and flatter torque line with alot more driveability down low. You could probably run 3.73s with a t56 and get pretty nice quarter mile times with nice driveability too. Downside cost wise is that you would have to do alot of work yourself or pay someone alot to do it as there are no kits. Upside is you can get 2 used turbos (or a large one) that are extremely cheap and more than sufficient.
As for the LT1, if your willing to spend 15k plus what you could get for your motor and parts now, you could go stroked and re-lined LS1 and still get good street manners with lots of power NA (500+), blown, or on the juice.
greg

 

Truck heads would fit, not worth it unless they are vortec though. You would want to rebuild them and port it if its going on a 383.
LT1 heads are reverse water flow so they wouldnt work on a non LT1 setup. Basically they changed the flow so the coolant goes from the radiator to heads then engine block instead of block then heads. This helps the heads run cooler, less detonation, more possible compression, and more advance.
greg

 

No to both. The stock iron L98 heads are probably better than the truck heads. The iron L98 heads have 64cc chambers if i remember correctly. Most truck heads have 76cc to 78cc chambers. They probably flow similar numbers, but the compression advantage makes the L98's a bit better.

LT1 uses a reverse cooling setup, which flows coolant through the heads first, then through the engine block. Pre LT1 small block chevs had the coolant run through the block, then heads. The LT1 heads won't work on the older SBC motors due to the different coolant passages.

Hope this helps

 

Yea thanks...what about 350 truck heads on a 350 Rocket engine? Bud has a '75 442

 

Okay... first of all, I am not trying to build a 500+ horse engine.. I am trying to build an engine that pulls past 5000RPM, and revs nicely without worrying about failure.

I talked to the guys at Fioravanti Custom Engines about my options. To start, I have to choose pistons before anything, so they can bore the cylinders to match the set of pistons. After the block is magnafluxed and free of cracks, it will cost me $500 to bore, hone, deck, clean, install cam bearings, frost plugs, and check the trueness of the crank journals... also incorporate the cost of the pistons, which they said a nice set of JE Flat Top Forged pistons, go for about $1000.

I don't want to get rid of my car and get a TTA, although fast out of the box, I like the rumble of a V8.

The Miniram II, in my opinion, is very close to design as the LT1 EFI setup.

The DFI system is a good idea, I actually forgot you can just buy the DFI ECM separately. If a chip reprogram doesn't work for the engine, I will go to the Accel DFI...

Big blocks are nice... but come on, its hard enough to do sparkplugs as it is in there

Oh... and yes, this engine will be blueprinted and balanced.. Fioravanti has a new computerized balancer, so it will all be good.

I will most likely go with a Crower Crank and Rod combo, not sure what class though... need some more opinions here...

Steel or forged crank?

 

mmm now its 5000 RPM..And if you dont want 500 HP whats the blower for??Are they gonna use plates in the honing?And what kind of balance??Work on the heads??On what heads?How are you gonna choose the size of the pistons without the heads?Do JE sells the piston size that you need?


Daz

 

I am doing the engine .030" over... yes JE has the pistons. I am going for aluminum heads... he suggested AR's? I forget exactly the name I can. brainfart.

I say 5000 RPM cause my car dies there... I want some action past there.

I didn't ask about torque plates, I will ask, but I am sure they do, they build engines for the dirt track races... Superstock ones? So they rev at 7000RPM or more for hours!! I trust their judgement.

I don't understand what you mean by what kind of balance... all I know is that they weigh each rod and piston, put corresponding weights on the crankshaft and spin it, and balance it.

As I said earlier... heads are still in the air... I will choose a certain head before I select my pistons.

I want a supercharger, because I want one damnit!!! Geeeees!!!
The supercharger will be a later addition, if it does eben happen. I may like the way the engine performs N/A and just add a small shot of NO2.

Daz.. give me a break man... I know what I want.. its just finding the right parts to do it with. I want to keep my options open for the supercharger as well as having decent power N/A... SO I want to run around stock compression ratio.

 

nathan,

Its just hard to make suggestions if the conditions are too broad..Its so easy to select mismatched parts..IMO have a plan and stick to it..I built my motor around the potential of the head and induction so..its kinda hard

Daz

 

Well my induction WILL be the MiniramII.... Heads and cam are my "iffy" factors right now... I've always wanted the Edelbrock Performer Aluminum heads.. definately something with 2.02/1.60 valves

 

might be too small for the miniram..IMO

Daz

 

nathan,

Its just hard to make suggestions if the conditions are too broad..Its so easy to select mismatched parts..IMO have a plan and stick to it..I built my motor around the potential of the head and induction so..its kinda hard

Daz

 

Hey Nathan.
Curious, are you using the block that's in the car now?
Just asking cause when my engine was done, there was no way to know that it had spun a bearing in the past, until it was disassembled. Therefore the crank and rods had already been machined. My block was cracked anyway, so I replaced everything. Guess what I'm getting at, is it could have been bored as well, without even knowing it. IMO, have the block done before buying parts, unless you know for a fact it's stock. Could save alot of grief.
Martin.

 

I have a 4 Bolt Main block coming from my cousin. I will have the block cleaned and magnafluxed before anything... I will get them to measure up the cylinder bores, then I will decide the pistons, then they can bore it and all that crap.

 

hey nate
By torque plates I think he means thick plates you bolt onto the block during honing to simulate the pressures that a head applies which slightly warps the block. It ensures no oil leaking by and a better fitting, longer lasting engine.
I dunno if thats what you were talking about but it sounds like you mean they have the plates that stop the engine from moving side to side due to torque, racing only.

Instead of wasting 1100USD, why dont you go with a converted LT1 intake for 500USD? Thats a pretty hefty savings, about the same trouble to install, and the LT1 is basically the same thing as a miniram (I think miniram has bigger runners, which will only hurt performance unless you are going stroker, and LT1 can be ported out for less than 600 usd anyway). Also have you looked into the stealth ram? Its pretty decently prices and made for high rpm peaks like the one you are looking for.

If your not going for 500+ hp why are you building such a high rpm motor? Not trying to argue or change your mind or anything like that, just curious. Most people that build high rpm motors do it for more hp for their combo. And if your only going for 400ish hp I dont know why you wouldnt want it at 4000rpm instead of 5500. Just curious, please explain.

Juice would be good but I still think if you still want more power after your build a blower would be nice (assuming you dont want the work of a turbo). The sound of blowers (or turbos for that matter) at high rpm is intimidating and nice.

Also if you going with a combo under 500, you could easily get away with some cast parts. Most cast parts have a max hp rating 400-500. But forged is always better for keeping your options open
Anyway tell me what you think and make sure you fill us in as the engine is being built!
greg

 

With a budget like that, why are you staying at 350 cubes? If I was spending that kind of $$$ I would order up a Motown and build myself a 427 SBC.

 

Amen to that!

 

I am building it to take power for reliability sakes.

I understand the implentation of torque plates.

I have my mind set on the Miniram II... I don't feel like modifying a LT1 intake.

I was thinking stroker motor before, I suppose I still can do it, it won't cost much more..... But I also want to drive this thing around, and, I don't want the neccesity of beefing up the rear end and crap... so I want to keep it around 400 horse, with higher revs.

 

You are contradicting yourself all over the place... you need to sit down and think about what you REALLY want.

 

How am I contradicting myself? Tell me please

 

If you only want 400 hp what are you going to spend all the money on Chrome everything? That would be kool though.

If you build a carbed 350/327/355/330 with a good set of Iron heads (bowl ported and matched) a reasonable dual plane aluminum intake (performer etc.) 9.5:1 compression and a cam with about 450 to 470 lift 270-280 duration (good exhaust system) Headman shorties or the 2 and 1/4 id exhaust manifolds you can make 400 horsepower for anywhere from $1,200 to $2,000 cdn. The amount of work you do yourself will determine where you end up in this band.

This set up is well documented in hotrod magazine etc.

So I ask you again if you only want 400 hp what do you plan on spending the rest of your money on??

Ric

 

definately no carbs... I am doing Fuel Injection. Who said I wanted chrome???? Now I think people are putting things in my mouth here...

All I planned so far was bottom end.. I want it to be durable, and able to hand high revs. I think I'll just keep my ideas to myself, and ask the machine shop for ideas, cause noone here seems to understand my plans, and no one's being that helpful, just bashing my ideas, which are decent ideas.

 

Hey Nathan, I think your plans sound good to me. I think you have realistic goals set in place. 5500 is a resonable rpm goal to shoot for, in fact most stock parts will live at 5500 nicely. 400hp is also a very reasonable goal, and a budget of 15k Can will certainly let you reach that. If you go ahead with the forged internals, you could still run a blower with no problems. The LT1 guys run blowers at 4-6psi and have 10.5 compression stock. The stock hyperutetic pistons usually don't last if the motor runs lean or detonates, but with forged pistons, you'd be alright with a blower like that.

Personally, I still think an LT1 would be a good motor to consider. You'll get the mini ram style intake, an ECM system you can program with out shelling out big bucks for, decent PM rods, and good flowing aluminum heads. Its a bigger hit up front to buy, but overall in the long run, it would probably be cheaper to build than the old style 355.

 

I see your point there Kevin.. but I've always wanted to build up a 4-bolt main block with what I want in there. I think the guys have read me wrong... I want a street engine that is reliable, with the option of a supercharger in the later years.

 

I kind of see what you are going for nathan, seriously not trying to bash your ideas if your talking about me. But when I build an engine someday I want everybody to run ideas by me. Making a mistake is big. You wont want to be like, hmmm alright rip that thing a part and we will put a stroker crank or whatever in.
You definately have an alright plan, and I was simply wondering why you want to keep your hp at a certain level, not more or less. The rear end thing makes sense, but if it was me building a 10-15k motor I would definately find the funds for a 3000(roughly, moser, complete, ready to bolt in) rear end and another 2500 for a t56. Even if I had to sacrifice on the motor... Its nice having a reliable engine, but its just as nice not having to worry about snapping stuff if you decide to drop your clutch (are you staying auto?) at your peak 5000rpm...
Another thing to consider with forged pistons (you probly already heard this, but just incase) is that they are an extremely loose fit till they are heated up fully. This can lower the life of the rings, youll need to add more oil more often, and sounds nasty till its warm. If you dont care about those then go forged for sure. Cast is pretty much everything forged is not (cheap, tight, not as strong etc.) and hypereutectic is an alloy balance imbetween the two.
Also about the LT1 intake, 500usd is fully converted, ready to bolt on.
I can definately understand the high redline and hp peak though. I know youve all heard it before but my dream (somewhat realistic, depending on my funds in university/law school) is still a 302 with a twin or big single turbo setup (maybe a vortec or ati if I wuss out) with a t56 and 3.73s/4.10s. Now that is revs . So you see I wasnt trying to bash or anything like that bud, but when I build my motor I would like as much power as possible.

 

the 302 was my original plan.... hmm.. I guess if I don't want too much power, and high revs, maybe the 302 would be my best bet still...

I'll have to ask about those forged pistons... if what you say is true with all forged pistons, I don't want oil burning on the start.. I got it right now, and I HATE it!!

Right now.. all I want to do is prep the block with fitted pistons, then wrap it and store it for a while. this requires no thinking, besides what kind off bore I want. Like I said before, this will be a 2 year project, bottom end will be done by next year... then the saving begins for the top end.

Where can I find these LT1 intake conversions?

 

Sorry I snapped on ya earlier... it's been a long day.

Any one of the combos you have mentioned will be sick. Just take your time and do it right.

 

If your plan for down the road is to supercharger or nos, definitly go forged pistons (JE or Wiseco, IMO), moly rings, H-beam rods, good forged steel crank, ARP bolts (through entire engine), definitly high volume oil pump and quality bearings.
You'll be able to rev the s**t out of it and still have the strength you need for later on.
I know, you've heard it all before. Just 2 more cents.