fmsracing

I had a long conversation with Kevin at Ramchargers (1-888-293-7267) today about getting a translator that would work with the third generation f-bodies. He informed me that their new translator-plus would work with these cars, however, it does not resolve the 255 gr/sec limitation of the computer. He went on to explain that Ramcharger make an extender chip for the Buick turbos that allow their computer to read the LS1 MAF up to 510 gr/sec. Kevin said he would talk to his programmer to see if a chip could be done for the third generation f-bodies IF THERE WERE ENOUGH PEOPLE INTERESTED. Everyone needs to call him today to express an interest in purchasing such a product!!!

Paul

tpi_roc

Hell I'm interested enough in just the translator if it in fact works correctly....

88TPI406GTA

Exactly...Is there any other info out there on this?

mystikkal_69

iTrader: (2)

i would definitey be intrested. any new news?

quickL98

iTrader: (2)

sign me up ... my car does the same thing that Magnum TPI was doing with the stock MAF, i feel such an idiot, i would be amazed at how my car would run better with the maf and inlet tubing removed even with the SES light on ! the car has better throttle response and everything with no MAF, i understand that the car relies on the TPS and 02 when the MAF insnt sending a signal at all . i've thought about how i could get a later model MAF to work on my finally i gace up and figured eventually something would hit the market or i would have to bite the bullet and pirate a late model MAF to my car seeing as how i know nothing about DFI's

Tom Keliher

I'm interested.

89 Iroc Z

That would be very nice if they make a translator but it would most likely be cheaper to switch to SD.

quickL98

iTrader: (2)

when they "burn" a chip can they adjust the gm/sec limitation for the MAF reading. or can not be done? i guess what i'm saying is that if i were to get an LS-1 and translator why couldnt i send my chip back to Ed Wright at fastchips and get it recalibrated.



hey tom , i wonder many folks here still have the issue with your car in it laying around .... how does it run now? (et)

Tom Keliher

hey tom , i wonder many folks here still have the issue with your car in it laying around .... how does it run now? (et)

Car runs well! ET I dunno...... I have not taken it drag racing since Oct '99 when it still had the slipping 700R4.

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

that'd be HUGE for you guys, hope Kevin can hook you guys up, see if Kevin can make a scanmaster for you guys too, GREAT tuning tool

Grumpy

Just for grins ask to speak to Mike Licht (?). While he's in charge of the GN stuff that happens to be the realm of his supplier Bailey Eng.. We did go thru this once before, but the bottom line was that there wasn't enough interest. The Translator Plus while an excellent product was 259 and then you need the LT/LS1 MAT.

So unless you drum up as many unit sales as the GNs you're cost will be at least that.

I run the Translator Plus, and for me it's worth every penny.

If some one was really clever they would take the output from a Translator Plus and run it thur a frequency converter to voltage converter, and then generate a new MAF set of scalers and tables, and have the best of all worlds, but that would take some serious time, and couple hundred bucks to sort thru.

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

amen to that!!

quickL98

iTrader: (2)

you pesky turbo bastards, damn you and your cars for being graced with a good powerplant from the factory

just messing around

quickL98

iTrader: (2)

i can understand that , i've been dealing with a strong case of bad luck and dumbassitis. not to mention 3 700r4's . and now i'll finally get back to the track again.

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

hahaha hey mine came with a L98, but i got smart and swapped a better motor in (puts flame suit on after that comment )

Matt87GTA

Because your car is a voltage based MAF system and LT1/LS1/Turbo Buicks are all frequency based. That is why Grumpy suggests someone come up with a freek-to-volts converter......

Then one would have to follow in his footsteps and get 128/128 all over the place with the stock MAF and then swap to the new setup and recal everything back to 128/128s with the 'new' MAF input.....

What would be even better, is if someone were to slap the OE MAF and the Bigger MAF, with the translator in place of course, next to each other and compare actual outputs at same flows.....

When a bin is changed in regards to the MAF sensor, there is no way to change the max value that the sensor will read unless you lie to the ECM. In that case you had better lie UNIVERSALLY throughout the calibration or you will fubar stuff. There has been some work done with recaling for a gutted and ported stock MAF by using the increase in flow of the gutted MAF as the divisor for the changes and it worked for the guy that performed it.... head over to the PROM board and read up on the MAF recal threads if you are interested.

quickL98

iTrader: (2)

thank you.i'll read up and learn. i understand what your saying about lieing universially in order to make it work. i was told about an aftermarket replacement MAF by wells # su-145 that is better than a stock MAF i'm assuming larger . has anybody used one of these or flow tested one?

badgta

iTrader: (4)

me want very badly!!!!! i'm in the process of a 500hp 383 and i will need all the air i can get....

i was reading a post on magnum tpi and they supposidly gained over 95hp with just the maf change......

you tell me.....

personally i have thought the third gen guys' and girls have been rear ended over the years.... people make all this stuff for 4th gens and mustangs and pretend that third gens do not exist!!! this really pisses me off...... i would love to have a huge maf like the mustangs do.....

besides this motor will smuther without it...

10.23:1 comp
comp 8-433-8 hyd roller
afr 195cc street's
stealth ram
30lb ford racing injectors...

jwscab

I wanna clarify something here, becuase I never got a clean measured voltage out of my MAF(87 L98). Everywhere I read info on the MAF, it indicated that early Bosch MAF's were a voltage output, 0-5V over full scale. The Delco MAF was frequency based, like 30Hz to 150Hz full scale. I have a document on the later model MAF that is like 3kHz to 12kHz. So what is actually output on the TPI MAF's? If recalibration is done within the prom look-ups, the interface circuitry might not take that long, I know of a couple of chips that could do the job, that wouldn't cost a ton. I just don't have access the late model MAF to measure both. Seems you could take a test engine, put both in a 'test' enviroment, and place them back to back, and correlate their outputs using the same engine airflow. Somewhat flawed by reversion, eddies. etc, but if you use straight pipe and space them properly, it might be close enough to get started with some designs, and leave some adjustment in the translator to calibrate. Might be less costly and more DIY. If it's simple volts to frequency, thats pretty simple. If it's one frequency range to another, it gets more comlicated, but just means another chip or two,(op-amps, which are pretty cheap) To get really spiffy, you could do a digital conversion, but that gets very complicated, and in all reality, with the accuracy of these MAFs anyway, it's all pretty much a wash for that kind of precision, although it does allow linearization(could do it in prom tho). If anyone has tables of output vs airflow for all the MAFs, post them somewhere, the EE guys might be able to run with it.

quickL98

iTrader: (2)

i wish there was simple solution to this? i dont even know what 165 ecm is ? i thought the difference was in the chip? why did they switch to freq in stead volts. i could honestly just ditch the the MAF on my car. it runs 100% better with it off ....damn SES light makes you feel guilty.

my friend ! there is a ton of stuff for third gens man ! c'mon just think of all the stereo equipment catalogs
really though ... i'm not the go about my day making phone calls, hanging out, and just writing checks car enthusiast . i want it to be right and get the most i can from my hard earned dollars.

i'm sure i'm singing to the choir on this one

badgta

iTrader: (4)

Why not try a 87-93 mustang gt maf sensor adapter?

theres is a voltage type isn't it? so then you wouldn't have to change frecuency to volts huh?

would it be easier? or harder to do? i remember granitelli had an idea about this but i never seen anything else......

they have a good market for high flow mafs and a good range of sizes too.....

86FyrBrd

iTrader: (1)

old topic but Im bringing it back

Any new news on this..

and if I have a custom chip burnt to get rid of EGR and run my LT1 intake on the 383 better. How easy/hard/different would it be to get the chip programed for the MAF sensor w/ Translator.

I want this, between my LT1 intake, 383, CAI, and MAF, the MAF is the only cork.

Ed Maher

I'd agree. I guess there would be some cool things about having a MAF translator system, bu i think the cost would far outweigh it's value.

86FyrBrd

iTrader: (1)

I'd want one cause I dont want to go through the trouble of switching to speed density. I wanna stay MAF, but the stock MAF sensor is physically restrictive, and also can only handle small ammounts of air (when running a 383 with LT1 I am told it will max out the stock sensor)

hectorsn

There really is no trouble involved in switching to speed density as opposed to having to modify the prom for changes like being able to see 512 gps when its limit is 255 gps. That is of course if you have found someone willing to do the freq-to-volt converter. You can grab a copy of the 32hac from ecmguy web page and see for yourself what airflow in gps the ecm thinks is flowing at what voltage output by the MAF. Remember, once you change those you also have to change anything that uses that data to make any kind of calculation in the prom. And as stated way earlier, this set up is going to cost you way more than adding a 730 and a few wires or running the 808 code in your 165.

Guido

I have to agree with the people pushing the speed density.

You can tailor it to what you want in time.

With the LS1 MAF your going to spend enough on the MAF to almsot get the whole 730 conversion completed.

Still a novel idea though.

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

i like the idea(considering i have it lol), but with SD system it'd be cheaper to convert like the others said..

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

also guys to add...

i didn't re-read EVERY post in this thread so if i repeat some info, oh well

with the Translator Plus and Extender Chip combo, not only does it get rid of the 255g restriction it also allows you to adjust timing and fuel settings for idle and WOT, its a nice tuning tool.

Once i get some cash saved up i'm going to get the extender chip burnt for my injectors and see what happens. A lot of turbo buick guys run the extender chip with great results. A few guys will have Kevin burn a chip for 98 octane gas, they'll use the T+ to turn back the timing a bit for pump gas then turn the timing up for track use, kinda like both chips in one

Not everyone does that but a few do...

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

BTW if anyone wants some pics of it i can take a few

STOCKROC

I took my maf off of my car, and it would not run. dosnt even want to start. The only way to get it to start was to hold the throttle open about half way. This would get it up to about 2500 rpm while bellowing out black smoke. The little time that I had it running it would not throw a code. I was hoping it would run better with the maf off my car (one more reason to start collecting everything I need for speed density swap). I know the stock maf has got to me a major restriction for my setup. I just like the way maf works compared to map for an NA motor. I would pay alot more for a maf setup that would work well on my car that a map one. I was thinking about making a larger diameter pipe to put the maf electronic part in. I have read that this would throw the reading off, but wouldnt it just read less air than is actualy going in? If so wouldnt this just cause a lean condition? Could it not be compensated with fuel pressure adjustments?

quickL98

iTrader: (2)

so what is the bottom line ? what does somebody who has a heavily modified MAF car do ? i'm not in the know when it comes to "165" or "730 conversion". my car is real temper mental , i keep getting the same MAF code for the burn off ckt
i've followed the wiring according to the schematic (sp) found no problems there so i replaced both of the MAF relays with OEM peices and still got a code. when i watch it on the scanner the MAF reads the air "gms/sec" at an idle its like 39 and with alittle tap of the throttle quickly maxxes out @ 255 gms/sec. and runs mad rich! so in a situation like mine what would be the best angle to reslove this problem. i'm almost sure this condition holding my car back, considering i've seen cars with almost identicial setups except they are SD instead of MAF running almost a sec quicker!!!
please help! i dont wanna give up on my 3rd gen. but running around in a fourth gen Z nowadays and driving my girlfriends LS-1 T/A i'm starting to loose faith in 'ol red (my GTA )

Matt87GTA

quickL98, your system is F'd somwhere. That is not what happens to a modded MAF car. The MAF should not read that high at idle. You need to re-diagnose the problem and find out what is making the MAF read so high. Don't rule out the ECM or the MAF itself - or the scantool for that matter, but if you are getting DTCs and know it is running rich, sounds like it is not scantool related.

As for what modded MAF guys do, I just don't think about trying to get it dead-on tuned because it just is not possible with a 165 system. I have definately outgrown this system and it will be going the way of the dinosaur soon (well.......). SD is the way to go.

jwscab, you are a bit off. The TPI MAFs are all voltage output systems. NOT freek based. No idea who is telling you otherwise. 85 MAF systems did run a different ECM, but the system was still voltage ran.

u r sofa king we tah did

take the 808 route, thats what im doing

quickL98

iTrader: (2)

Matt87GTA i'll throw it on the scanner again and check the MAF values again, and post them up here, i know its not the scanner , i've just recently used it and all was kosher its an OTC 4000 enhanced. some one mentioned that the wiring harness could be modified to accept a map and upgrade. is this possible?
also what is the 808 route? where can i learn more about 165's 730's or now 808's
the car runs extremely rich also, i mean EXTREMELY rich. i've check the intake for leaks as well. is SD definitely the way to go? i've heard yes from several others.

Grumpy

If you poke around, I've posted how to make a MAF-N system. Which means you run on the MAF at the lower flow rates and then go to an Alpha-N system as you open the throttle.

An Alpha-N system uses just the TPS, and RPM for load sensing.

If someone ever does a 165 ecm bench it would be a piece of cake to do.

Injector sizing plays a major role in things, since you just can't get any resolution with a static injector.

the info is out there for how to recal things for a gutted MAF properly, and with the MAF-N it's actually quite easy to get the hang of it and do, once you understand the concepts and build an ecm bench.

As things stand right now, my ecm uses the MAF up unit 160 gm/sec, and then goes Alpha-N, and the math indicates, I'm flowing well over 500 gm/sec..

Ya, Dam Buicks withem hairdryers.

But you're dead in the water until you look at things on an ecm bench, and grasp what all's going on. Oh, and this system is definetly not one size fits all.....

fmsracing

I talked to Kevin at Ramchargers again today. He said that there has been a great response for an LT1 MAF with an extender chip that will work with the 165 ECM (which I credit to this board). Since there has been such a high demand he has started his R&D people working on this project 2 weeks ago and believes he will have a finished product in the next 2-3 months. Keep the requests coming in and we might finally resolve the 255 gr/sec dilemma once and for all. Again the phone # is 1-888-293-7267 and ask for Kevin.

Paul

quickL98

iTrader: (2)

how far back would i have to look for the "MAF-N" upgrade, also what is an ECM bench, and what do i need to do(which i'll learn about 1st) ecm adjustments myself as mentioned by Grumpy. the LT-1 MAF and extender chip sounds like the way togo as far as ease perhaps, i'm sure they wouldnt have a problem finding demand, if you figure from 85-89 thats alot of fixxed up vettes and f-bodys that could use something like a MAF upgrade.

i have a tps enhancer and a OEM TPS sensor on my GTA , as intended when i get to like 75% WOT my TPS volts max @ 4.73 at 100% WOT it drops to 4.44....(<with KOEO) it didnt use to do this if i remember correctly. i've tried adjust the slack in the throttle brkt. but that did nothing. go figure as usual my car seems to run better when its not floored. would this slight drop in v's affect power @ WOT

so if we want this translator deal to happen, just call and grobble about my lame *** car

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

cool, that'll be a HUGE thing for you TPI guys

would've been nice if they made that when i had my L98...

Grumpy

Well, since Bob and I talk, as in Bob Bailey Engineering that actually does the design work.

I mentioned this to him today. He's a very busy guy, and the Translator ain't his day job.

Yes, he did start on it, but for the moment it's just sitting.

If you guys are really serious about doing this, then realise the Translator Pluses, go for about $250, and then you need to find a MAF. So it's at least a $300 deal.

If someone wants to get a head count of guys willing to step up to the bar and actually commit to spending the dough, let me know what the count is of real buyers, and I'll mention it to Bob.

A Translator plus normally has a idle mixture control, a WOT fuel control (though you may have to guy his chip to get that extended range), the a universal timing adder and one for WOT timing.

I use mine alot for making changes that I later incorporate in the next chip.

No ones asking for any money, I'm just volunteering to get the word to Bob, about how really serious you guys are. So someone needs to run a survey to see who's serious.

NO, ME TOO's.
If you don't have the 300, don't say yes, just to generate a falsely high count.
HTH

fmsracing

I will strart it with one, any other takers?

Paul

ir0cz

That should be the quote of the year!

88 350 tpi formula

iTrader: (9)

I did not see if the ford mass air flow question got answered or not but, the problem with that is they read the same or really less. "bassically" they use the same mass air flow internals and put it in a bigger tube so when you watch these ford guys do this they also add bigger inj. it is like a balancing act. the ecm see less air so it adds less fuel but, add larger inj. and the thing actually works out it is far from as acurate as what we would like.

Guest

Not all of the Ford MAF's do that, some are and some arent. The ones that lie to the ecm do not work as well. Even Ford Motorsport/SVO/whatever their name is now has a MAF/injector setup that essentially lies to the ecm.

Grumpy, tell him to keep in mind that usually if you take the number of people interested and divide it by 3, thats how many might ante up. Could be less. Maybe he already knows that. I see one interested so far... not surprised there is no translator, what with SD, LS1's, Turbo Buicks, and other real fast cars out there...

quickL98

iTrader: (2)

another taker here.... this translator and extender chip seems alot less painful then changing over to SD, as far as cost goes its cheaper than the route i was going to take to make car SD.... i allready have a MAF from a 98T/A sitting in the garage.
I hope Mr. B is in a good mood

TTA850

Let me start by saying,it's about time they start thinking of the TPI motors,there is so much cool stuff for the Turbo V6 that I wish was around for the L98.

Anyway,why not see if he can just make up a Translator(not the plus)as that is $149 for the Turbo V6(??? on price)and then just hit a junk yard for an LT1/LS1 sensor(less than $50).I've been working with these MAF sensors scince they came out and we have very.very rarely had to replace one(as in never happened yet,and thats on the NYPD fleet of Caprices).That will put your cost at $200 or less and scince the V8's have a distributor they don't need the timing feature anyway.

Just a thought,
Steve

STOCKROC

I want it. I have been waiting for someone to make an ls-lt1 maf sensor work on an l98 car for a long time.

quickL98

iTrader: (2)

my '94 Z has yet to have any parts failure , except for an opti-crap...i mean spark, which is pretty much standard on LT-1's. i agree, even just a translator would be much appreciated for the tpi crowd.
i could use one now considering i keep getting a MAF code, i think i damaged it trying to put the guts in a larger housing.
so believe me when it comes to ante up ....

Craig Moates

Folks,

I will make this happen ASAP. LS6 sensor is in hand, PROM mods will be needed, translator is on the bench.

Maybe a couple of months, but the price will not be extreme. From the looks of things, it will require a harness cut & splice, but nothing too tragic. I'll let loose with the info when it is working & available.

The software/PROM will require changing of course, but not too difficult. I'll see about flow-benching stuff to get it right. I'm a motivated engineer, since I'm determined to keep my new 383 on MAF!

-Craig

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

This all sounds very interesting, but when I look at the big picture I have to agree with those guys suggesting SD, especially for those bigger engine high HP projects.
Even the LS6 MAF & 6Liter 85mm MAF is too small and restrictive for a high revving 383 or bigger.... I know, bad news for some.

The serious LS1 guys have already started switching to SD.

:hail: freedom from the MAF.

89gta383

iTrader: (5)

Craig, I'm with you. I have a 383 and burn my own proms, so you can use me as a testing bed if necessary.

I can't stand all the SD swap people and all their crap. You can make the maf work, it just takes time and effort like what Craig is willing to put forth. I'll buy whatever you come up with dood, I already have 2 of your boards and your cable. Telling people to swap to speed density is not the answer to all. I know a guy who swapped to SD from MAF and still can't get the car back to the performance of when it ran mid 12's with the MAF sensor, so I don't want to hear all the SD is better crap again. To each his own.

Let the people who want to work with the MAF sensor do their thing, and we will all be better off for it in the long run.