First, from what I can tell, you are pinging because you are a little lean, especially down low. Add more fuel to VE in the under 3500 rpm area's where you show 18:1. Probably wouldn't hurt to add a little more fuel to the accel enrichment table as well. Might help add a little more power down low and reduce some detonation....

As far as taking on LS-1's...... It sucks to say that all they need is a cam upgrade to kill those numbers!

However, anything over 300 rwhp on a TPI 350 is still impressive and you're knockin' on the 400 marks door!

My hat's off to you guys, good job!

 

1bad91Z you are correct. I was going to have Kevin add 5% more fuel back in the 4800- 5200rpm cell. I will have him add even more lower in the tables except the idle area. I need some taken out in that range. I upped the fuel pressure from 43.5 to 50 and my idle is not quite as good but not bad.

I got four knock counts in 4800 to 5200 rpm range. It took out up to 10 degrees of timing and that is why the flat line on the horsepower is there. The timing starts comming back in around 5600 and the horsepower starts rising and keeps rising. I think getting that squared away will help power some more in that whole area.

More thoughts on the modded TPI. Like I said above in my opinion what we have done is turn the TPI in to a very good single plane intake system. If you look at a TPI intake manifold the runners are virtually a straight shot across the manifold. By siamesing the runners themselves the 1-1.5" of runner that is left is also straight. So the actual intake runner system is a virtual straight shot into the head.

With the current TPI intake manifolds except the First the transition from intake manifold to the head is not the best. However by welding and porting as shown by JerryWho this can be made into a very acceptable transition. Again imho this is why my motor is still making very good horsepower up into the 6000rpm range.

So to some things up we now have a very good single plane intake manifold with equal length runners and very little in the way of turns.

 

One more thought on the subject. There are rumors and a inadvertent picture posted online for a day showing a single plane intake manifold with a large plenum area. It looks like the next improvement in the single plane intake manifold will come from a much larger plenum area.

IMHO I think we are already there with the modified TPI.

 

have you tried desktop dyno simulations on your setup with single plane manifold?

 

Yes. On EA Pro using a Brodix single plane the modified TPI was better all the way around until 5800 rpm where it was even than the modded TPI started to fall behind. In fact there was no contest down low with the TPI way ahead. However we only took it to 6200 rpm in simulation not knowing what was really going to happen.

 

sweet setup

 

Allen,,, That's very good numbers,,, you have to be happy that all the hard work has paid off.

If you have a few minutes,,, you need to scale that last EA Pro simulation to your latest dyno run. It'll show you what the curve would look like if the timing was on.

It is accurate curve wise,,, but it is off about 15 horses,,, which is more than usual with 100% accurate info and everything working at 100%. If you're positive the head flow info is right, and the muffler is capable of 1100cfm,,, I'd bet you there is a little more hiding in it somewhere (about 15 horses). Not sure where that would be though,, kinda figured the exhaust fix was going to be it.

 

Hi BadSS.

Thank you for the comments. I think you are exactly right. We have to square away the 4800 to 5200rpm area. Because of the four knock counts in that area the computer is pulling up to 10 degrees of timing and then starts letting it back in.

That will reshape the whole 5000 to 6000 rpm area and possibly help more higher up. I also want to thank you for your help on this project in steering me in the right direction on the intake manifold. We as a group may have stumbled into something.

If Ken at First Injection were to redo his runners I think he would have a killer setup. It would work great on 383's, 400's and built 350's.

 

My involvement was small in the grand scheme of things. Stealthing this thing out was the hard part.

You are right, a small tweak by Ken on the runner molds by removing the crease in the runners,,, at least on the inside (if not both sides) would allow you to get the full siamesed/extended plenum effect. Right now, all you can do is a notch on the FIRST runners, similar to how the SLPs look out of the box,,, or you can have the crease welded up to flatten the floor. As you've found (and documented), siamesing the runners/extending the plenum on a properly designed and executed combination can add around 700 rpm and 10 - 12% peak power and do it without killing off all the midrange!! Again,, kudos to you and your crew!!!

I can't wait to see how this thing runs. MY IROC with way less engine than yours and a box stock FIRST shifting at 5800/5600 rpm in 85 degree weather went high 12.5s around 108mph,,, so you should be deep in the 12s considering the difference in power and typical IROC vs TA vehicle weights. Might even break in the 11s if you can hook it. Also, the IROC had a wide open cold/ram-air induction system that liked more fuel in the upper RPMs at the track than sitting on the dyno. I'm sure this is typical and common knowledge to those used to tuning on the dyno and racing at the track though. Anyway,,,, I have a feeling you're going to have to put a lot of heat in the tires,,, as in a John Force type burnout. You might even want to see if anyone has a set of 28x10.5 M/T ET drags you can use with those 3.73s and 3.08 first gear. It was hard for me to hook with the FIRST running way less power, a 3000 stall, 3.23 gears, 2.53 first gear, no sway-bar, properly adjusted torque arm and pinion angle, adjustable front and rear shocks, air bag, and 26x12.5 ET Streets.

 

Hi BadSS

It is the little bits of key information that can really make a project.

Regarding the First: I think you are right on regarding Ken and the runners. If he was going to change the runners as you suggested he might even consider siamesing them part way. Maybe like 3" or so on the order of what SLP does only more so.

Regarding my car: I will be racing a week from Monday at the F-Body invasion(look out 4th gens). Right now I only plan on reving the motor to 6100 as that is where it shifts right now with the 700R4. When I get the 4l60E installed I will take it up a little higher. So maybe with good weather I'm hoping for 12.3's with the short shifts.

When I get the fully forged short block in with the splayed 4 bolt mains, the AFR 195 Eliminator Competion heads with the light valve train then we will see what the motor is really capable of. I'am thinking of going to 1.65:1 rockers on the intake only to fully take advantage of the heads.

So in the meantime I will be tweeking the suspension and try to get it dialed in. I need those 1.60 second sixty footers. Best I have been able to get so far is a 1.71. We just installed an air bag on the right rear and a line lock. Starting to get serious now. Hahaha.

 

What makes the 4l60E so much better? Isn't the 4l60E about the same as the 700R4, and dont you have to change to a different computer?

 

it is computer controlled so you can easily adjust shift points to make it perfect... it may handle high rpms better but that i dont know for sure

still a nice upgrade to beable to easily change shift points..

 

the main difference between the 4L60E & 700 is the electronic part.
you have much better control of the shift points with the 4L60E, no more going into the trans just to raise your 2-3 shift 100 rpm.

1989GTATransAm nice numbers

 

Well I think my 700R4 is on its way out. It has a 160,000 miles on it and I was wondering should I get it rebuilt or buy a 4l60E? My car only has minor mods but Im planning to build a engine like 1989GTA TransAm's hopefully within a year.

 

^ Hey man, I'd be offended if I were running a freaking Iroc. Must you use that avatar....?

 

I am italian and I thought it was funny. Didnt mean to offend so I'll change it.

 

The 4L60E is going to be built up to handle the rpm and power. I have placed the order with Dana of Probuilt for all the good guy parts. I could have put the money into my 700R4 but for me I think the 4L60E is the better route to go and just put the money into it.

Like was said I can program in all the shifts points and it has lots of other features. I will be using the TCI controller. There are other controllers out there for those thinking of doing the same.

 

i would love to do the same thing, as my trans shifts at 5200 rpms and i need it to shift at like 6500

 

Revisiting my shortblock situation. I currently have forged pistons. I have the GM PM rods with ARP bolts. I have a cast Chevy 350 crankshaft. I have the standard 4-bolt main block. Gm rates the PM rods to 500hp and that is not with the ARP rod bolts that I have installed.

I figure I might be making 480 horsepower around 6400 rpm. Probably down to 440-450hp at 6700rpm. All thoughts appreciated on whether I need a new all forged short block or take my chances with this one.

Update: I had forgot about this post I had made. http://www.speedtalk.com/forum/viewt...ast+crankshaft

I think I will leave the short block alone and put all the money into the new AFR Eliminator Competition heads plus a couple of other goodies.

 

My dads has the factory rods (circa 88), resized with ARP bolts, stock crank reground a bit because it was quite worn, and KB pistons. Its been up or near 7k multiple times, even past that a few times. Still living ok cept the pistons really are hard on the walls.

 

PM rods are strong but rpm kills them more than power and revving that high will be hard on the rods. I'd definately try to keep it down below 7000 as much as possible. And if you get those AFR's get the upgrade 8019 spring..they are heavier duty for those high rpms and aggressive cams

 

Thanks guys for the replys. Right now I think 6800rpm should do the trick from looking at the dyno graphs. I can set up my 4L60E so that it will only shift that high at the races and have it shift at a lower rpm for regular street driving.

Regarding the AFR's. Joe Sherman is an AFR dealer and is not to far away and has quite abit of experience with the new AFR heads. I have an appointment to meet with him a week from this Thursday(need to confirm) to go over what I need. Here are some thoughts.

Option 1. Buy the regular Eliminators and have Joe's shop give them a full on port job and the necessary valve train for up to 7000rpm operation.

Option 2. Buy the Competion grade and have Joe give them the once over to clean up the ports for a little extra flow. Again have the valve train set up to7000rpm operation.

So I will see what he has to say.

 

DUDE I WAS KIDDING (I'm Italian too)!!!!!! Get that avatar back on there asap, I love it! My wife is Italian as well, and she used to refer to that very thing once upon a time everytime I cruised around in my old Iroc-Z back in Brooklyn/Queens....

 

Has anyone talked with him about this? Last time I spoke with him (6 months ago maybe?), they were in the process of selling off the "old" manifolds and were setting up to begin CNC machining new manifolds. Maybe this should be something they include in the new program!!!

 

I have emailed Ken my results and pictures of what I did. I have no idea of Ken's finances or capabilities. However he has a good product that with some tweaking can be a really great product.

Most of it has to do with the runners. Maybe two sets. One for the high performance 350's along with the 383's and 400's. Then one set with longer runners for the 305's and lower power 350's. The intake manifold is quite capable of support some big motors with porting.

I think he is pretty much there with the intake manifold runner wise. Just needs maybe to clean things up some like in ports one and eight. As to the plenum that will depend on how he wants to approach things. Does he want to be able to use a factory style throttle body as an example.

 

Update. Went to the track yesterday. I reached my goal by only having to shift around the 6000rpm mark. I was looking for something in the 12.3's or lower. I got a 12.29@110.41mph. My 60" was a so-so 1.75. Got to get that into the 1.6's consistantly.

My record against 4th gens is now 5-0 at the track. Hehehe. I only got to line up against one as this meet was not quite what I thought it would be. He got me bad off the line as I was spinning badly on my first run. However once I hooked up I ran him down and beat him to the finnish line.

Once I get the built 4L60E installed we will up the shift point to maybe 6700rpm depending on what the dyno says. Then back to the track and see how close I can get to the 11's. Got to take this one step at a time as I want to keep the car in one piece. Remember my peak horsepower is around 6400rpm.

 

wow great numbers high 11s will be no prob with good 60ft an tranny my guess a few weeks ago was 12 flat you will be there an better easily.ive been following ths thread from the beggining.it really is a great sleeper for those ls1 camaros because the engine doesnt look all that crazy i mean with just slp stock runners an just a set of headers lol.

 

I thought their was a math formula where you can take your mph from your run an convert it to horsepower your puttin out. if there is one it would be interesting to compare that to what your dyno run said you made. just wondering.

 

"my guess a few weeks ago was 12 flat."

I think your guess is going to be very close.

 

only shifting at 6000? wow there is more in that for sure!! 11.80's at 113 i think with a better 60 and great air conditions

i would expect your mph to be higher than 110 anyway atleast

 

I forgot to say the density/altitude meter was running between 93 and 94. So from that standpoint it was not the best of days.

Let us not forget this is a fully optioned GTA that weighs 3510 and race ready with me driving around 3750. So it is not a light weight 3rd gen and neither is the driver.

 

true, just goin by what i've seen around me. my buddies 02 SS had 365whp and ran 114 at i believe 3600lbs

reguardless thats moving, the ET really shows it

 

Put that lady on a diet and you'll have your 11 sec pass!

 

Yeah I get a ribbing about the weight from the guys in the club. However it is true.

 

Met with Joe Sherman today regarding the AFR 195 Competition Eliminator heads. He is going to check on a couple of things for me before the final order including milling. I'm going on vacation so I won't place the order until next week after I get back.

The Competition heads already come with the heavier springs and of course the larger 2.08" valves. Also the Competition heads are of a different casting than the regular AFR 195 Eliminator heads. They are based on the 210cc and up series.

Apparently when AFR was developing the 210cc head they had it at a point where the flow was real good. They measured the head and it was right around 195cc. Viola a new head was born.

 

those comp heads by afr are just awesome. i bet the difference between your darts an those afrs are gonna be like night an day i wonder just by the head swap alone how much u gain, i bet its gonna be big. did u ask j sherman if he can confirm those afrs are flowin 300 plus cfm?

 

Joe has not messed with the AFR Comp heads in awhile. He mostly builds for the bigger motors. Early on he had a couple of sets and they flowed as advertised. My understanding from reading other sites and comments from Tony Mammo is they have tweaked the CNC program somewhat since then and have been averaging above the 300cfm level. Maybe 305cfm.

Joe will flow the head when we get it and then we will know for sure. Yes the step up from my current heads will be as large as when I changed from the Trickflows to the 200cc Dart Pro Ones. I'm also going to up the compression ratio slightly from 10.75 to 11.00. That will add around 5 hp. So yes the potential to pickup of a few ponies is there. Typical is around 25 from what I have heard. It just depends on the combination.

Depending on the head flow I have the option of going to a 1.65:1 rocker ratio or stay with the 1.6's. I talked to Mike Jones the cam designer about it and said that was fine as long as the springs can take the lift.

 

im not sure if im breaking tgo rules but ill ask anyway lol. is joe sherman a dealer for afr heads as im in the market for some soon? if he is can he get the comp heads immediately, or is their a wait for the comp package like there is from many dealers. thanks

 

Yes Joe is a dealer. There are quite afew AFR dealers around the country. You might want to consider one in your area if you want a face to face chat. I have also called AFR and got some good information. The person I talked to was quite knowledgeable and had the answer to my questions.

 

I got my heads from AD performance. they have free shipping and i think they may still do that, just 15 bucks for handling.

That i didnt know! Casting I thought was the same because i have heard the comp 195's actually measure in the 196-197 range so i figured going from 280 cfm to 300 was only a few spots of grinding

 

Hi Orr

I didn't either. I figured it the same way you did. Joe did have some 227's there that I got a chance to look at. They were the new Competition version. You can definetly see the difference in the CNC cuts versus the standard version.

I really did not see where there could be much of an improvement. Joe did not either and said they flowed so well he was afraid to touch them. I assumed they were going on a motor as is.

 

my next massive small block build will probly sport the 210's but i have an idea for a 227 head motor that should do some good times

Those cnc profiles really do look nice and i also would be afraid to touch them since so much research went into developing those ports

 

An update and some rambling thoughts. I have ordered the heads from Joe Sherman. Takes around 5 weeks. So I should have them the first week or two of July. I went with the titanium retainers for the extra safety margin as the valve springs weaken over time.

I'm also having the heads shaved to get a 62.5cc combustion chamber for the 11:1 compression I'm looking for. That should get me around 5hp. I will also go with the 1.65 rockers on the intake only as I'm getting a deal on 8 of them. That will nudge me right up next to the .600" lift. This may net me another 3 or 4 horsepower.

Joe Sherman feels pretty confident that the heads alone will net me another 25hp. So add the rockers and the increase in compression and we are talking maybe an additional 30-35 horsepower. Now with the 4L60E conversion that alone should add at least another .15 second to my et. That will allow me to shift in the say 6800rpm range instead of the 6000rpm range that I'm shifting at now with the 700R4.

So adding this all up we are talking maybe another .5 second off my 12.29 et. That would put me in the 11.79 range and maybe 116mph. Fun to speculate on all this and test out theories. Hopefully sometime this winter we will have the answers to all this as reality sets in with real dyno numbers and track times. Lord knows I have been perplexed in the past as things have not turned out as expected.

Another good thing is drivability will not be affected at all with these mods. Just had another thought. This might put me real close to 400rwhp. Probably just shy of it.

 

Hi Mr. 89GTA TransAm. All you need to go 12 teens or better (next Friday hint, hint) is to put my wheels and sticky Hoosiers on your ride. Can you say 1.59 60'!!! I know Vincent can! later.......

 

Yep, that is what I have on the plate for next year. Work on the suspension, maybe tires and my 60". Right now I'm just taking it one step at a time. Slow but steady gains.

Gotta keep ahead of that Vincent fellow. I know he is burning the midnight oil and comming up with new ideas. He's probably down at Dyno Don's shop right now hatching some new ideas.

 

wow man your car is getting the goods ! I hope my nasty 383 can hang with that 'TPI' 355!!! i got a lot of pressure on me here haha. Oh well, theres always that big blue bottle

 

Hi Orr

I think your car is going to do just fine as you are doing all the right things. Anyways it is fun to speculate what our cars might do. Seeing as your car will weigh a little less than mine and most likely more power you should be in the mid 11's with time. We will just have to wait and see some dyno and track results.

 

Yeah its definately lighter You got a good combination there now, let alone the head swap thats coming. Very interested in seeing how that turns out. impressive work

 

Here is a dyno comparason between the XFI268 cam, Edelbrock Extrude Honed intake with highly modified SLP runners and the Jones 228/228 cam, First Intake manifold and highly modified SLP runners.

I have posted two graphs, one with rpm and the other vehicle speed. I just notice I have more horsepower with the vehicle speed graph and thats why I posted it. Hahahaha. These are both SAE. Then one with Standard correction for the local guys.

 

Looks like pretty much a win-win swap. Except of course your wallet and the time, but you can't beat results!
FYI I think you mean actual speed not engine speed b/c engine speed and RPM are the same