Dont you mean NO good?

 

Why don't you guys like the beehives????

 

I like the idea of them but in the real world I've seen too many failures that scare me away from them. Patriot Golds are what I use and like

 

i pulled the valve covers off.. here are some pics, i only pulled the springs off of the #3 cylinder so far... the valve seals look fine, they look like they are the same size as well[intake and exhaust] the seat or shim [not sure on terminology] on the exhaust valve spring has a grouve worn into it.. its hard to see in the picture but its pretty evident in real life. see pic.... i dont have a tool to check the installed height of the spring so im not sure what it actually is. there are no marks on the springs where the coils might be rubbing eachother... keep in mind tho there and not many miles on this engine. however, it drinks oil big time, i think it might be valve seals but the first 2 i checked seem fine. when compressed they look like this.. see pic.
while i was at it heres my cai too. ill check for coil bind when i have an extra set of hands to crank the engine over.

 

look at the grouve.. is that normal.. certanly the intake one doesnt have a grouve

 

here one from the #4 cylinder on the intake valve.. hole!clearly there is a spring problem... probably being binded and then pushed into these little washers.

 

No dude, I don't think that's normal.

You'll need to check and make sure you have the minimum clearance required between the coils at maximum valve lift as you mentioned. Check with comp to see what that # is. Just because they're not touching when turned over by hand doesn't mean they're not touching @ 5500 rpm.

 

Whoah, looks like I was a few seconds behind you.

Yep..... Houston, you've found your problem.

 

Yup thats gack... hows the push rods looking? Time for new springs and I'd say the thing will feel like a new mo'sheen. Lets hope the lifters are okay...

 

heres the update guys.... the springs only had 110 pouns of pressure when compressed and my NEW engine shop says you needs 150 pounds of pressure on a hydraulic roller... this would have caused lots of valve float. oil was also coming in on the bottom side of the intake/head gaskets. im thinking of having the entire engine rebuilt. ill post up again when i get the engine back in her..

Lee

 

okay.. so i had my engine redone by another very highly recommended place. Last engine was a massive disaster so now im running the same internals in a different block. no oil consumption no valve float, no vacume leaks. i bumped down to 1.5 rockers as well.

I went to the dyno and put down the same numbers as before.. all around 260 at the wheels with converter not locked up. This engine makes power to 4900 rpm and then falls on its face badly. My ported intake is a massive restiriction. Also i found out that my 2800 vigilante is actually a 3600 stall becuase im not putting power down until the engine flashes that high.

i have ordered a 2600 stall to put in to take more advantage of my low end power. I also need to figure out how im going to let this thing breath.

My opinions on new intake are holley stealth ram or single plane manifold.
Possibly even convert to MAP becuase my MAF must be a massive restriction.

 

Did you de screen and gut the maf. if you do this it can than flow 650ish cfm. Without that it will flow 550ish. So the stock maf could safetly handle 300-320 horse without a restriction, but after that it will be one. There are many restrictions with the tpi. The runners, intake etc. Tackle one and then go onto the next

 

The MAS is not a big restriction until you have around 600 HP. Remove the screens and you will be fine.

 

What are you serious?? With the MAF gutted and de screened it's only good for 375 horse MAX. At 600 Horse you would either need to go to SD with a 3.5 or 4 inch pipe or make your own MAF at 3.5 or 4 inch pipe. I am working on a custom 3.5 MAF. I know that my stock intake is killing me!

 

Orr89rocZ's car didn't seem to pick up anything from a larger MAF. He makes almost 400RWHP N/A, and 500+ on the sauce. By the math, it's close to 600 at the flywheel on the bottle. I believe the stock MAF is the least of the OP's worries. I feel that to an extent - the heads just don't flow enough to take full advantage of the camshaft. I'm curious what a cut out would do for it as well, the hooker cat back is flanged - might be worth dropping the muffler on the dyno to test the theory. But, it's not going to find him 25-30 RWHP... just kind of curious to see how much of a restriction it is.

I know the race tracks are closed in the great white north, but I would go by the "dragstrip dyno" #'s before you get all bummed about the chassis dyno #'s.

 

Orrr has not finished his 3.5 custom MAF cold air intake package. I would guarantee there is some power there between those 2. The stock intake is restrictive at 400 horse. On the dyno you can see on the air box that it starts to collapse, trying to suck more and more air.

 

yes.. definetly the Maf isnt helping in my situation, a switch to map would eliminate any questions about that... Long tube runner setups are just no good in general... im thinking a single plane intake is the way to go.
I also have a vortec stealth ram intake sitting here... but it may not be good enough
exhaust could be restrictive too.. but my uncle has the exact same exhaust and muffler and puts 375 at the wheels with it

 

Switching from a 75mm MAF to an 85mm on my car barely gained 2 RWHP. I make well over 400 RW, almost 500.

As far as the cat back, my friend's bolt on car picked up 8 RW open cut out vs. closed - stock heads & cam car.

 

I picked up .4 by just opening the cutout last weekend. So I know that my 3 inch catback is really restrictive

 

wow.... and i thought 3 was plenty.. where is your cutout... near front or back?

 

Its at the front. after the y pipe, right where the 45 degree right bend is

 

Also...stock vortecs flow maximum intake 230 exhaust 145 @.550 lift.

Asking for 300 to the rear wheels with those is pushing it at best.

You are right about the lift and stacked hight on your springs, that would equal coil bind. Or broken seals.

What Vincent said about the manifold is also true.

 

ive been reading this thread and TPI sounds like hell in a hand basket. I started a new thread for suggestions on a build up, because TPI sounds like it flows money into it more then air or anything else. 14.7 @ 85..wtf. I need a new setup.

 

I totally agree with you - don't waste your time changing the MAF - the tuning will kill you and the gain is very small. Also this is a general comment - Dyno's are good for tuning but taking the car to the stripe is the only way to tell what you have.
thanks
Bill

 

If you have a vortec stealthram sitting there, put it on and don't look back. There's no sense in choking the engine with tpi if you don't have to.

 

i completley agree... but now im considering going a step above that with a single plane... and im undecided on whether i keep heads or not.

 

I think that'd be a bigger PIA than what it's worth, but that's just me.

 

I think that'd be a bigger PIA than what it's worth, but that's just me.

 

hmm.. so your thinking a stealth ram is a better choice considering the extra work for the single plane. BTW im still looking for that stealth ram vs. victor jr efi intake dyno post.

i borrowed my uncles g meter to do a street test for 1/4 mile recently and the best i got was a 13.66 at 108 MPH with some wheel spin with my yokohamas in 3rd gear and 3600 stall. i know with a hook my setup is good for better time.

im having a hard time beleiving the stock maf is only a small restriction....
86 IROC... are you running a naturally aspirated engine?

 

Regarding 3" catback... A friend of mine has a 2000 Firehawk with baby cam and bolt ons and put down 358 rwhp through the muffler... and 355 with an open cutout so trust me the exhaust isnt that big of a concern.

As for the intake the elbow is easy for us. We'll make one up that can accept the stock TPI throttle body so there is no harness/conflict/tuning issues and I think this would be a better way to go than the Stealth Ram set up.

I couldnt agree more than this comment its a biatch to get these things working well without going gray, bald, and broke.

Remember to set goals and stick to them or you will just continually keep throwing money at this thing. Same theory goes fro any project almost never does anyone actually meet their goals when it comes to power or speed. Speed is simple... How fast do you want to spend? In the end thats all it is $$$$$$$ so be reasonable and know there will always be faster guys no matter how much you spend so be happy with what you have. Glass half full instead of half empty etc.

13.6 @ 108 is nothing to sneeze at

 

Like I said, with the right setup, even with 3.08 gears and stock runners, it is not that bad. The rev limiter is at 6K. Shift points need to be at 5,700 for the 1-2 shift and about 5,500 on the 2-3 upshfit.

 

Id be very interested in knowing what shops you were using for your engine builds and you experiences with them.I know the Da Silva boys very well.I plan on rebuilding my engine over the winter and get into prom tuning.Wuld love to check out the car.

I was running the motor in my sig and it ran great and if i had to guess i think it would be around the 290rwhp range.I want to even out my pk hp and pk tq so I am switching to hsr.I Loved my 2800 stall but curious to see what a 2500 would have done for me.

Im currently in the process of tossing a stock 350 in the car for now as I rebuild my 355 and hoping to get her in the 400hp range at the fly

Im fairly local and if you need any help or connections to shops let me know.

 

The more I read about TPI the more convinced I am that I may just have to add a Turbo or LSx to this car to make it achieve the power levels I like. I thought at least 300 rhp would be easy with H&C. Does the miniram not work to help this thing pull past 5800 rpms?? Should at least be able to pull to 6000 rpms for peak hp.

 

Same shop we dynoed at dynoed a 350tpi with a PISC procharger and barely squeezed out 300rwhp....

 

I have heard of similiar choking off problems with the (early TPI) L98 Calloway TT Vettes.
However there is a difference with respect to VE (Volumetric Efficiecy) on a NA motor compared to a FI motor..but regardless a restriction is a restriction. But a procharger being a Centrifugal S/C will not yield great results with a choked off upper rpm band because Centri's are peaky....and they take power to make power at the lower rpms due to parasitic loss...doesn't mean they won't haul azz if they can be launched in the higher rpms and kept within the peak power band.

My question is more about the results of the HSR intake on this particular setup and what it yielded hp wise versus the modded TPI or SuperRam intakes...as the intakes appear to be the root cause of the restiction up top...which is where I want my power at...this is what pulls the higher traps speeds. I would not be launching below 3K rpms at the drag strip so I am looking at that last 1/2 of the rpm band for which to make my power.

It almost seems like dropping an LSx into this car would be the no brainer...but I find myself liking the idea of maintaining the motor the car came with (at least until the 2 bolt main creates a problem like it did on my 87 IROC) then I would switch to the truck block (4 bolt main) like Calloway used for their record setting TT Vette.

For a daily driver I would be happy if I could get 300-350 rear hp/tq out of this setup..with the power peaking between 5800-6K rpms.

Is there a list of mods that can get me there pretty easy? I do all of my own wrenching so am not worried about tearing into the motor if I have too, but would prefer to see what I could get just using a new intake, headers, magnaflow mufflers, CAI, and a tune.

Do the stock heads on these cars wake up at all with a new cam shaft?

Thanks

 

Havent tried the Stealth Ram on this set up yet but I'm sure Speedmachine will post his results here when he does. As for the intake being the achilles heal yes you are correct that is really the biggest nightmare for the TPI systems. The stock heads arent bad but I dont know how easy it will be to get over 300rwhp through them they arent that great either.

Easy way to 300 rwhp on a sbc? Some decent heads/cam and a CARB lol. Seriously though the stealth Ram sounds okay for that but I have heard mixed reviews about the mini Ram... or more specifically TPIS products in general although i have no personal experience with them so thats merely heresay.

As for LS1 being the answer??? well....

 

Yeah it would be real simple for me too stuff an LSx in this car...I have assembled (long block) my C5 motor a couple of times after I blew up the stock motor. But I went through the L98's far too easy on my IROC and so did a friend of mine..the 2 bolt main is just not good.

I would like to keep an L98 in the car just for the challenge of making it perform and the novelty of having the car still be an L98 versus and LSx...but knowing the LSx and how cheap I could get one makes it difficult because it is easy...way easy to make an LSx perform great right out of the box....especially if I just put a 427cid in there and called it a day....but traction is always the issue with high hp cars...and what I notice about the 91 and my IROC is that rear end is very light and the car will burn rubber super easy with a stock L98. So it is likely I would just use a 5.7 or 6.0 liter for the task.

Even having a stock LSx in the car would make it more difficult without some serious sneakers to put down the traction.

All that aside I still would like to see if the HSR or Mini Ram offers the above 5K rpm performance I (we) are looking for as it would be a simple swap out of the intake and it would still appear like a stock L98 (but with fuel rails). lol.

 

well, ive got my vortec stealth ram on now, and i had my vig tightened up as much as possible and it should arrive soon. hopefully the lower stall and intake will turn my problems around.

 

From reading through all of the old posts, I would make absolutely sure that your timing is right before you take it to the dyno again. The 355 vortec, hotcam (218/228 @ .050), flat tops, that I build last year had problems making the power I thought it should on an engine dyno. It turned out to not be getting enough voltage to the distributor. It picked up 40 hp when I fixed that. I'm not saying that your ignition system is bad, but timing has a huge influence on power. Use tunerpro rt and datalog the advance while someone else is watching the car with a timing light to make sure it has the advance you think it does. On the dyno my engine made the same peak power at 32, 34, & 36 degrees of total advance.

I'm guessing you have no way of calculating the airflow going through the engine (other than the MAF sensor)? You might look at your MAF readings, then talk to someone who is familiar with what they should be for the power level you think you should be putting down. That was my big indicator that something non-airflow was wrong with my engine. The turbine on the engine dyno was telling me that it was pulling enough air to make 360+ hp but I was only getting 320. Just a thought.

I'm curious to see what the results will be. Good luck!

 

definetly with the old tpi setup i was falling off in power around 4800 RPM as it showed on my last dyno visit. the new 355 from eagle engines runs beautifully and for sure the cam is degreed correctly etc. etc. another interesting thing was when i had the rebuild the only thing on the whole car that i changed was the rockers from harland 1.6 to comp 1.5s. the reason for the change was contemplation of whether the heads would "fastburn" or swirl the air correctly correctly was [565, 575ish] now 530. 530ish @ .50"] and with the next dyno visit we made 15 less horse but the car runs much much crisper. However i am aware that different dynos make different numbers so i am no longer interested in anything but a time at the track. hopefully since the cam makes power from 1800 to 5800 the stealth ram will suffice for breathing. after that the only other restriction would be the maf currrently my CAI is all 4" except there is 3 inch reducers where the maf goes. ive heard mixed opinions about whether it is or isnt a restriction.. but i think i might de screen it when i get it running again. As for the vigilante i ordered a 2800 and it flashed to 3600.. i thought maybe this was just why everyone loved these stalls... however when i sent it in and Jack who makes them at Precision Industries told me that it should flash to 3000 after he cut it open and checked and that he said it really shouldnt be flashing that high.. definelty something fishy goin on with the ported tpi intake. I told him to tighten it up as much as possible so at the least it will be a 2400 and at the most it will be maybe a 2700.. until i get it in i couldnt tell you. Definetly a tighter stall will give me more power to play with. i also put in an exhaust cutout before the catback so that i can uncork it at the track to see whether its holding me back as well.

just out of memory my base timing mechanically and in the chip was 6 degrees, and im running a total of 32 degrees, however the computer can add or take away something like 8 degrees... i was thinking of changing this in the prom so that it can only change maybe 2 degrees or so and then fin tuning my spark table.. i noticed that vortecs dont like alot of timing at first or on top but they like alot of it all at once. i suppose ill have to play with this. also just like you said we changed the total timing from 32 to 33 to34 and to 36 and the peak power remained the same...

definetly tuning will play a large roll in getting this setup working properly.... im shopping for a wideband so i can air fuel it myself..

 

I sort of skimmed thru this thread, but what type of dyno was used? I didn't see that it was mentioned and if it was a mustang dyno your numbers will be lower than the norm. And being that your running a loose converter there is more frictional hp loss. Again it's just dyno numbers though. That thing might run low 12's at 110mph. You will always loose dyno numbers from a converter, but you will always gain at the track. A typical stock LS1 car will lose 15-20rwhp going to a 3000 Vigilante converter, but picks up a half second in the 1/4. Do you want dyno numbers or track times? IMO, low dyno numbers paired with low ET times is more impressive than something making high dyno numbers. Also, I would have stuck with the converter you had. Especially going to a higher rpm intake such as the HSR. Remember your peak torque will be raised with a shorter runner intake.

Also, the pics of the mangled spring shims wouldn't cause any power loss. Good thing you found it though as it would eventually start eating into the head. What should have been used was a hardened spring seat or cup to locate the spring and the shims would then go underneath to acheive the proper install height. Hopefully the new machine shop fixed all your mechanical issues.

As for the MAF, I've seen plenty of power made thru stock MAF's that's been gutted/descreened. Yes eventually it becomes a restriction, but with your setup, I wouldn't see it causing much loss at all. Nice car you have though and good luck!

 

The dyno was a brand new DynoJet literally no more than six months old. The dyno numbers were lower than we wanted and yes there are losses from any stall but the big issue was the curve literally fell over a cliff at 4500RPM and the stall was flashing to 3600 I drove the car and was amazed at this. This left less than 1000RPM for the car to move out with and it was just a bad combination of parts. It literally did not move forward even when easing into the throttle until over 2K so the converter was far to loose for such a low peaking engine. Even with the Stealth Ram this thing is still going to make most of its power between 2500-5000 so tightening up the stall made sense IMO.

The good news is the car certainly did move well in its window there. We were driving side by side at about 50mph and did a roll on and his car was pulling on mine and through Gtec the mph was high so the track times are likely going to be much more impressive than the dyno numbers even after the new mods. The dyno is a tuning tool though and it really helped break down these decisions so we could realize the most return from Speeds hard earned efforts here.

Now what about that buffer?

 

I guess the rpm drop was on the second go around? The graph posted earlier in the thread looked like it revved fine to 5500 and then fell off. That looked fine for a long runner setup to me. So now the current configuration won't rev past 4500?? Hmmm... He mentioned earlier that the new machinist recommended 150lbs on the seat for spring setup, which is alot but doable. I would find out where his lash is set at. With too much lash and high seat pressure it will just kill the lifters which in turn will kill the rpms. Running very little to no lash is required. I run zero lash and 150lb springs on my valvetrain and it works great. Post the newer graph if you can.

 

I never even looked at the first graph and now that I review it was running higher up in RPM although the peak hp was slightly less. The difference from running the 1.6's I would guess but it was a different dyno so who knows for sure? The lash was set by the new shop but they are reputable so I doubt its a lash issue killing it but its an easy thing to check.

I wonder how much or if at all the Stealth Ram will kill the bottom end and how much gain it will provide? We'll see soon enough keep your fingers crossed for Speedmachine

 

Cool, yeah the different ratio rocker could be the difference in power. I was wondering how he was running so well next to your car if the power was falling off at 4500. Well, at least it runs good and feels strong. Don't worry too much about torque loss as that's what the converter is for! Might want to step up the gearing from those econo 2.77's though!!

 

econo 2.77 hahahaa... yes for sure gears are first on the list after i get it all set up and running. ill have to dig for the latest dyno graph..

Speed

 

For the one thousand or so RPM that this thing worked it worked very well and pulled HARD so theres promise in her yet. As for the "econo" gears? I'm sure a little 8.8 treatment down the road will solve that

 

well shes back together and running.. new bits include stealth ram, kirban AFPR, 58mm billet lingenfelter TB, exhaust cutout, 180 degree thermostat, and roughly a 2400 vigilante[not exactly sure yet].

it runs pretty rough right now so i ordered the LM2 wideband and ill get cracking on the tune.

ill keep everyone posted.

Lee

 

Lee,

Good luck with the new setup, I am looking for over 300rwhp and 350rwtq with my setup which I will also start tuning soon. I could be a little optimistic but I will share some of my info. I knew it could be an issue but this thread made me realize that my lift for stock Vortec GMPP heads at .482/.495 could be a little much and may require some valve spring/ guide machining before increasing the lift with a new cam. I'll need to look into this further especially if my dyno results dont pan out. Thanks for all the tuning info, it should be a good place to start around 30 degrees of timing through my new Moates ostrich emulator / Aldl data logger. Unfortunately my first dyno results were much more disappointing than yours. I will share the "as purchased" results and mods list with you as well as some of the current additions

Car: 1989 Formula 350TPI WS6

As Purchased Mods: TPIS Airfoil, K&N filter, TPIS / Edelbrock high flow intake base for Vortec heads, GMPP Vortec heads, SLP 1-3/4" jet hot coated headers, MSD coil / wires, Accel ignition / plugs, AFPR, Crane 214/220 cam, 1.6 Crane Magnum RR (.482/.495) lift, 2.5" exhaust w/ ypipe, TCI 2200 stall converter, LCAs, SFCs.

As Purchased Dyno Run: 11/2008 UNTUNED MAF car, 220hp@4800/280tq@3700rpm, (stock tpi, TB and intake. (Mustang Dyno)

New Mods installed this winter: Lingenfelter Super Ram Plenum / runners, Holley 58MM TB, SLP CAI, Flowmaster American Thunder 3" Y back exhaust, Moates emulator. I got the car running with these mods by just adjusting the fuel pressure 43psi and TB idle adjustment and it seemed to run fine at idle at 700rpm.

To be Tuned this next month, any tuning suggestions are greatly appreciated.

-Dane

 

GreatDane first of all you should start your own thread so that you can ask specific questions regarding your setup.. there is no magical sequence to tning a car.. each one i different aqnd unique in its own way.. dont waste time with mail order tunes. YOU MUST BUY A WIDEBAND O2 SENSOR.. its a must have.
my suggestions are as follows
1. set injector constant
2. set base timing to match both Prom and car mechanically
3. set total timing to 31 degrees
4. add some idle speed for the cam [change 600s to 800 rpm] roughly.. you feel this one out.
5. then using your wideband and maybe the track or dyno fool with your air fuel tables and timing to get it running at the right ratio.
6. you can also fool with things like fan turn on times to match your thermostat.