As I start getting more money for my car, I wan't to try to make around 500hp. Obviously I want to do it as cheap as possible. Also want to rebuild some junkyard turbos and run those as well. I'm new to rebuilding engines and everything, so where should I start? Do I have to bore out the TPI intake or modify it if I run turbos? And what stock components can I keep if I get to 500hp or what should I replace?

Everybody is telling me just to LS swap, but really don't want to right now and just love TPI. So what direction should I head? I'm going to pull out the engine soon and disassemble it. Should I bore it out to a 383 or keep it 350?

Thanks guys.

 

500 flywheel or at the tires? With turbo?

if with turbo, i would keep it 350. Hell even a 305 would work with good piston rod combo. Most oem turbos are small so small cubes will help

 

Wheel if it's even possible

 

Yeah can be done. But will need built parts, and the right size turbos. Idk whats best size on oems, they usually are tiny but there are tons of cheap china turbos that will work. Vs 7875

forged crank and rod combo. Ideally an aftermarket head and mild cam. Wont be hard to get there on low boost

else a stock head like L98 or vortec it would need alot of boost to do it. But still should be possible.

 

You will need to ditch the TPI as you see it now to begin with.

Ditch any conception you have of doing this with a 305.

Think 383, mini ram, Turbo and all that supports it. You want 500 to the rear wheels, that is roughly 600-650 at the crank - you will need to be able to RPM as well.

To put this in perspective I have an LT4 on a 8psi supercharger through a 6-speed. 385 to the wheels. Not that a 96 LT4 is a world beater, but it is a much better set up to make power than an L98/LB9. The issue here is it is still on the stock cam and exhaust manifolds. I fully believe 425 is achievable on this combo with a set of long tubes, a slightly bigger cam designed for forced induction, bigger injectors, and a bigger fuel pump. The question would then be if the bottom end holds together.

I also have an L98 running 6PSI. It probably makes 280-300ish HP and this is where you are starting.

More cubes always help, if you are rebuilding a 383 kit isn't much more than a 350 kit. I am assuming you are going to have machine work done on your 350 anyway to make sure everything is fresh. It will add very little additional cost to also have the block clearanced for the 400 crank. Good you are going to run boost, but it will not be cheap to build a bottom end to stand up to high levels of boost. I would suggest planning on keeping your boost at a reasonable level around 8-12, with an intercooler. A Short runner intake like the miniram, a cam designed to run with forced induction, and a set of large chamber heads with 195cc or so ports to drop compression a bit. You can look up Engine Master (I think) where they did a test on a engine with different compression ratios. It's ability to make power was not greatly affected. You would be better served to be able to dial in more boost that having a higher static compression ratio.

This is pretty much what I have considered doing with my LT4 Vette. Keep my Procharger, build a 383, AFR 195 Heads, Lloyd Elliot cam, have some work done to my factory LT4 heads, bigger injectors, long tubes, bump boost to 10PSI. Just doing some thumb math here... if everything stayed the same except going to a 383, that is a 9% increase in displacement should be 9% more output. Things don't always stay exactly the same, but close. That would bring me to around 420hp at the wheels. A cam set up to actually run with a blower should bring another 5% (maybe more) because it will make a huge difference in how the engine uses to forced induction. That would bring it to around 440. Long tubes will help a lot as well. The factory manifold choked the engine at factory levels, so we will say another 5% off of where we are with the new cam. Sitting at 462. Now I have Lloyed Elliot or another reputable source work the heads. This could be another 5% or so... that would bring it to 485 or so to the tires. Would hope along the way some add more than 5% and bring me closer to that 500hp mark.

So, as you can see, 500hp is a steep hill to climb. Not that it can't be done, it surely can, especially with boost. My concern is you said " as cheap as possible". While I think you should research and buy parts at discounted prices when possible, 500HP will not be "cheap" if you want it to hold together. Good luck, will be looking forward to your build thread and results. High Powered Thirdgens are awesome.

 

Made 521 rwhp and 583 rwtq in a 383 tpi car with procharger d1. 8 psi boost. 5 spd

tpi aint the issue with boost

 

There is more to that story, what heads/cam? Maybe my LT4 would do a lot better with the few changes that I mentioned, but I guess it's better to expect less and get more

I will agree, my L98 doesn't seem to hit the wall with the Vortech the way a NA car does. Would be interesting to get it on a dyno one day. I have the plot from my LT4 and it does start to drop off at 5800, but facotry heads/cam. I would think it would be more about the Volume. Boost is resistance the blower sees against getting the air into the engine. Pressure only tells one part of the story, flow rate is just as important. 10PSI at 800CFM is not the same as 10PSI at 1200CFM

 

Noticed your location. Got a few thirdgen guys here in Lansing that can give you a hand if you get stuck with something or need an extra hand along the way.

 

Afr 195, custom 224/230 xfi cam. Fully ported and welded big mouth tpi base and large tube runner. It was a very stout combo

 

Those AFR heads never seem to disappoint. Keeping the factory LT4 heads Lloyd Elliot suggested a 218/226 Cam for my engine.

Let's be honest about it though, what you just mentioned isn't going to be "cheap". Would procuring a Big Mouth base and a set of Large Tube runners probably be as expensive as buying a FIRST or Miniram and calling it a day in today's market?

 

Unless you get a good deal i wouldnt go conventional tpi. The first tpi system has been the best value going. My understanding is it was 1000$ for base runners plenum and throttle

but i would go victor efi or equivalent single plane and elbow for all out performance or an hsr or eddy proflo xt for the looks and hood clearance

all those are not gonna be cheap really but its a necessary expense in a boosted setup

it is the next cheapest way to 500 whp. Idk what an average cost 4.8/5.3 ls swap costs. An ebay turbo deal can do 500 whp for ever. Sbc might not live long on stock internals so you have 1000-1400$ in rotating parts now just to support the power. Ls will need 500$ in hp tuners to work or 500-1000$ in dyno time to have someone tune. Tpi sbc stuff you can use tunerpro for free and code $59 or boosted $8d perhaps. Or bandaid with fmu and pe enrichment vs rpm

a stroker 416 ls3 will get 500 whp with a big cam. Basic k1 internals crank etc. stock head stock intake.

 

My thought was to just get a bunch of junkyard (or any used) parts and try to go there if that's even possible? I like the stock ECU as it allows tuning and tuning software is free. In terms of turbos, could I use old diesel turbos and rebuild them? Also would it be better to do a twin turbo or single turbo setup? Just worried about fabricating some crazy exhaust manifold for the single turbo.

 

The best factory sbc head is a vortec. If they aint cracked they are good.
i would atleast do new piston and rods. Scat rod is fine. 8.5-9:1 with iron heads. 355 cubes

if you can get a s400 borg type turbo from a big diesel truck that may work best. Ideally 71-75 mm. I have no idea what vehicles come with them. 83mm turbine will get there i think and spool quick

but a vs racing 7875 is a fine cheap piece

factory tpi electronics is fine but you will need to learn how to tune.

 

Yea I made my own ALDL to USB cable, just need to make a PROM flasher now. Could I run stock heads or would it be a bad idea?

 

Stock L98’s? Sure. Get it up and running and see how far you can go.

i was in the 280-300 whp range with 8 psi boost on a bone stock 305 tpi. Guessing 12-15 whp per psi. 500 would have been 21-25 psi range lol. A 350 would be a bit less imo. 16-18 maybe?

 

This is surprising to me. I have 6PIS into my L98 and I don't think I am touching 300 crank HP. As I mentioned, I haven't dynoed it and I haven't dipped into customizing the tune yet. I am sure this leaves some HP on the shelf, but that is stout little 305. That 305 was on the stock LB9 heads/Cam?

I don't disagree with your assessment on the 12-15hp/PSI. That was the rule of thumb in the Turbo Buick community as well. Well for every PSI you could safely dial in. Just using those numbers though, a factory L98 is probably in the 180-200RWHP range, getting 6PSI of boost into it would at best net a 90hp bump. That's 270-290 to the wheels. I would believe that is where I am currently at the crank. Which is all good, but God bless a L98 that gets hit with 16-18PSI and survives for very long.

I still think to hit 500hp you are going to need a few expensive parts. I don't think there is SBC mix and match junkyard parts that will go together and handle enough boost to get there.

 

I am only estimating based off my 3600 lb trans am that made 308 hp before the exhaust changes i made, it went 108 mph.
My 305 car spooling slow in first gear only making 5 psi til it hit second gear, went 110 mph in the summer. My bolt on irocz made 254 and went 103 mph in good air. My 91 z28 305 was light tho but idk how light. My guess 3300 with me.

 

Question #1 that no one seems to be asking - what the budget?

Remember - Price, Performance, Reliability.

You can pick two. You can't have all 3.

GD

 

He wants to use Salvage Yard parts, that tells you what the budget is.

 

Lower your expectations, and start with other, much more simple, maintenance-type projects on your car; over time, get some wrench-twisting and basic fabrication experience first. What you're planning requires a lot of skill in many different areas of expertise, not to mention a well-equipped garage/tool box.


If you try to dive into the deep end of the pool before you can swim, it's just not going to end well.

Good luck.

 

Agree. The questions you are asking are highlighting your inexperience.

500 WHP is not a trifling matter and if it was easily withing the reach of every junkyard scrounge with a couple quarters to rub together then every idiot would be driving around in a 500 WHP Camaro they bought for $500. The police would be beside themselves. No one would be safe. It would be anarchy.

Making it isn't the problem - a few well chosen purchases, a f*ck-ton of NOS and a bit of dumb luck would do it. I just wouldn't trust it to make it out of the driveway let alone all the way down a strip.

GD

 

In terms of cheapness and performance, as stated in the triangle above, how much would it cost to get the engine (excluding gaskets, machining, etc.) ready to handle enough boost to make it 500hp. Not the turbos, just the engine itself.

 

Well - 500 WHP is about 650 crank HP. So if you want reliability you immediately throw away the engine you have. It's a cast crank, 2 bolt main block that's 30 years old. You will break the crank in half and drive over it at that power level.

So - the answer is: You simply buy a crate engine that's capable of this power level. One built with (for example) an aftermarket block with billet splayed-bolt main caps, forged steel crank, etc.

Here's a good choice: https://blueprintengines.com/product...ock-bp38316ct1

There is nothing in the junk yard (that's not an LS) that will do what you want.

GD

 

Lets not forget martys turbo ta that made over 700 whp on stock 350 sbc bottom end. Google the grenade

 

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp...tiac-firebird/

 

True but this is a guy that works at a shop with a chassis dyno and has a couple decades of custom shop work. That's a LOT of "it didn't cost anything because it was laying around the shop" and "our tuner futzed with it for 8 hours on a saturday for pizza and beer" in that build. You aren't going to find edelbrock TPI bases, and good used aftermarket GN turbo's laying around a junk yard.

OP doesn't understand that you can't find 700 HP fuel systems, 700 HP cooling systems, 700 HP engine management systems, NOS systems..... not to mention brakes, suspension, chassis stiffening, etc.... in the junk yard.

I also believe there is a LOT of luck in making 700 WHP from a stock short block (it was also rebuilt and one cylinder sleeved). Some are going to do this, but probably a lot more will have rapid unplanned disassembly issues. It seems like a bad idea unless you JDGAF about the consequences.

GD

 

I do understand that... I'm just talking about cranks, heads, etc, and maybe some misc. parts.

Also 500hp is my end goal, I just want to get started on the right path as I start rebuilding my entire car. Not expecting to make it right away of course.

 

well we are just discussing the power making system here not the whole car build. Ofcourse theres alot to go into it but it can be done alot cheaper than i think you are thinking it would be. Stock cooling system and dual fans are fine. I’ve done that power on stock new reconditioned rad. Stock fuel hardlines are fine just need a walbro 450-525 pump and jack up the pressure some with proper injectors. Stock 91-92 ecm using the right code is fine. But i agree the experience/expertise is needed in all aspects here to be successful but atleast its a direction he can take and go from there

i think a stock motor turbo build is a perfect place to learn how to build and tune. Instead of spending alot of money on a real nice motor only to hurt it cuz you dont know what you are doing

 

Well in that case, the discussion of 500 HP is moot since basically none of the parts to accomplish that are a great idea when you are starting out and learning. They tend to be expensive and you don't want to wreck expensive parts in the process of learning do you?

Put in a cam, larger injectors, some headers and an exhaust and get familiar with tuning - be that stock ECU or aftermarket. ALL the things you want to do require tuning. So get into the DIY tuning forum and get started.

GD

 

Exactly right! But it's just not a direct path to 500 HP. Nearly everything involved in a stock engine build will probably end up replaced, worn out, or broken if you try to use it for a 650 crank-HP engine build.

OP needs to start at the basics. Chang the spark plugs, install some headers, a camshaft install, some injectors, etc. And then tune each of these changes to really get a handle on both the mechanical aspects as well as the electrical, electronic, software, and tuning aspects involved in this type of project.

This is a process that will take a LONG time. Some of us have been doing it most of our adult lives as a hobby or professionally - with backgrounds that make it seem easy to the lay-person. It isn't easy and it isn't cheap. It's not easy or cheap for someone to even daily drive a stock Third Gen at this point unless they are doing all their own work.

GD

 

"The long and winding road" , , , , quick , someone cue the Beetles

 

Yep. Winding road indeed. I see cars come and go on my dyno every day. Lots of drift cars, lots of street projects, etc. I would say the average RWHP number I see is about 375. And that's a rather scary amount of power on some old clapped out 80's chassis. That's a pretty respectable number even for AWD cars.

It's comparatively rare to see things break that 500 number at the wheels. Those that do have obviously spent a serious amount of time and cash to do so.

GD

 

new cars today are so easy to make power with. Buddys new 6th gen camaro with just headers, exhaust, air intake and a tune made 468 whp thru the 8 spd auto. Just insane
it would have taken the ls3 5th gens a giant cam to get there

 

My friends 1LE 6th gen is in the same area with similar mods. Intake/Headers/Tune, 490whp through the M6.

My Focus RS makes about 300whp stock, and by tune alone and no upgraded parts can get to 350whp easily.

 

Watch what you do with that engine. I haven't had a single customer that didn't have major problems with head gaskets, then rod bearings, and then sold that hot mess. One spent a fortune on a custom stroker (not from me) that made like 550 awhp only to have that unit blow the HG also. He sold it in defeat.

GD

 

Everyone is fearful and calls it a weak block because of the Mustang Head Gasket fiasco. Ford equipped the wrong gasket fro the factory for almost all of them. It doesn't matter if you leave it stock, or push it hard with mods. The head gasket WILL blow because it has a coolant channel with no corresponding channel in the block. So coolant stagnates in between the bores, superheats to steam, cools, and repeats. The repeated expansion destroys the gasket, allowing more coolant to collect, and the hot spot created by the steam warps the head and deck of the block.

I have no worries about the engine in the 4xxwhp range as long as the fueling is there. Its my daily driver, I likely won't really ever take it much beyond Intake, IC, DP, and Exhaust. Which will easily give me about 380 with comfortable fueling and not requiring any E30 or auxiliary port injection.

When I want to drive a faster car I get in the TransAm.

 

Ostensibly the stroker he built had the "correct" head gasket. He almost certainly detonated it (was street tuning it himself ) and lifted the head due to excessive exhaust back-pressure from the insane boost levels and too-small of a turbine housing. You are better off with a bigger turbo at lower boost. I think Ford pretty much had these dialed up to 11 with very little overhead or safety margin. That coupled with the incorrect head gasket doomed them all to near immediate failure. Have heard disturbingly low mileage head gasket failures on these. And then to add insult they just up and quit making them turning them into essentially an immediately orphaned product. If you want to get into Subaru's market (which even Mitsubishi wasn't capable of displacing to any real degree), you need to hang on for about a decade till you can get older models into the hands of the broke kids that will eventually grow up to be your new market.

GD

 

Thats pretty much any market for the most part. Once cars get used and prices come down, kids buy em up

 

From My understanding and reading (I was once considering one of these as a DD as having AWD in winter in MI is a big help), it was the design of the block that would eat the head gaskets. That where the head meat the block, cylinder walls were unsupported due to the coolant passages allowing movement on a micron scale, head gasket opens up, water enters combustion chamber, and all down hill from there.


Unfortunate, I remember in the late 90s/early 2000's wondering why they never brought the Escort Cosworth RS to the states, even more so once the EVO and WRX started to gain popularity in the US market.

I now have a Wrangler

 

You are all wrong. Nothing to do with the open deck design lead to the head gasket failures. I went through this with my first RS when nothing was known about the failure. My grey Focus RS was literally the POSTER car on Jalopnik for the issue, see the video at the bottom. My videos of the head gasket got picked up by several websites because its a good example of the failure. My car eventually started consuming coolant so badly that the engine hydro locked. Ford replaced the entire engine under warranty, and the replacement engine came with the correct head gasket.

Why did the head gaskets fail? Its simple. The Mustang 2.3L EB (MEB) used two holes in the head gasket as a coolant crossover channel. The Focus RS block does not have matching holes. Instead, the RS block uses a crossover channel cast into the block that does not rely on the gasket to allow coolant to crossover. Oddly enough, this change to increase cylinder sealing since the RS pushes more boost than the MEB. The change they made, with the incorrect installed gasket did the exact opposite, weakening its ability to seal.

Its not a question of if the head gasket will fail. It will always fail, and usually within 15,000-25,000 miles. Mine failed at 22k completely. Fully hydro locked. However, I started having problems around the 20,000 mile marker. Multiple dealer visits with compression checks and "everything was fine". It was not. The engine consumed over 1 gallon of coolant per month. Over the about 3 months the car consumed more and more coolant, and the visible clouds of burning coolant became more frequent on start-up. So I started recording videos of it every time I started the car up in the mornings. Every time the coolant cloud happened, I uploaded the video to YouTube as a timeline.

From initial symptoms to full engine failure was about 3 months, and consumed about 3 gallons of coolant. I bought 2 full gallons, and after those ran out, I made the dealer top it off every few days to force them to document the usage. I kept the receipts and made Ford reimburse me for the coolant I bought too.

When the engine finally failed, the head and deck were so warped, the gap was larger than the thickens of a penny. Ford replaced it under warranty entirely. Shortly after my car was repaired, the head gasket recall was released and the reasons why it failed were finally known and documented. Unfortunately, by then, every 2016, and almost all of the 2017 model year were affected. Only the 2018's are guaranteed to have the correct head gasket from the factory. Everything else needs the recall done.

 

Harsh Words

When:Another question I’m left with: why aren’t the affected cars from a certain “batch”? It seems like various Focus RS builds spanning 2016 and 2017 are affected. You’d think that if the wrong head gaskets were put onto Focus RS engines, you’d be able to identify a certain range of affected VINs? Tatarevic told me “That, I have no way to explain. And it doesn’t make any sense.”

Not to mention the then 25% rate that still report oil leak, coolant loss, or continued head gasket failure as shown here. Which you should know since you go by the same name there. Seem the gasket correction isn't the cure all for all cars and leaving other options to speculation.

To be fair, it has been since around 2017/2018 when I was in the market for one. Some information has came forward over time and certainly based off some more reading last night I can't dispute the head gasket issues did cause failures. It doesn't seem to be a closed case that this engine won't have other issues as well - unfortunately. It was a really cool car.

 

Cool thirdgen related lol

 

Well, I do believe an Ecoboost swapped and tuned would be closer to 500hp that scrounging for stock SBC parts in a junkyard to get there. I am sure there are a few wrecked RSs out there that you could grab in a salvage yard.

Lighter than an LS, would probably leave more room to work on it, better handling.

Probably not as cheap as the proposed budget but certainly would be unique.

 

The unfortunate reality for owners of these is that Ford dialed the engine up to 11 and just sent it. Then when it wasn't moving off the dealer lots (toward the end dealers were sitting on these things for an average of like 9-13 months), Ford just up and canceled the whole mess - I'm sure the lack of sales combined with the horrific warranty rate of the platform just didn't pencil out...... The failure rate has been EXTREMELY high. Compared to say the 2002 introduction of the Subaru WRX to the US. Many of those cars went 250k on the original unmodified engine when properly cared for - even being driven hard.

You almost never see the RS's on the road anymore. Most being broken, sold in disgust, and taken off the road due to fear of failure I guess. I'm quite sure the whole platform was a complete economic disaster for Ford. I think your profit margin probably goes right in the toilet if you have to basically replace the engine in every unit of that model built. The shareholders have got to be upset about that mess. Doubt they will try it again.

GD

 

werent those things 40-50k new? Who would spend that on a focus!?

 

Not me! But then I wouldn't likely ever buy something newer than about a ~2000 MY. Just don't have or see a need to depreciate my money like that. Also with an older platform, the technology stands still for you so you're not always working against a moving target for repairs, maintenance, and upgrades. Buying at the bottom of the market value at about the 20 year mark ensures zero depreciation, low entry price, and it's relatively easy to find low mileage examples of mass produced models (necessary for inexpensive and plentiful replacement parts).

But for that to work for *me*, everyone else has to be a good little consumer and go out to buy the latest, greatest technology. So please forget everything I just said....... BUY MORE! BUY NOW! SPEND! HAPPINESS!



GD

 

$34k base, $42k loaded. Equivalent in pricing from a inflation scale to thirdgens. The Focus RS is closer in terms to the TTA than a GTA or Z28. A TTA MSRP'd for $30k or so in 1989, that is about $62k in today's money. Loaded BMW M2 territory.

I never expected the RS to become a Collectors car. Thats not what they are about. They are driving machines, and any left parked is a waste. It doesn't seem possible the way the RS finds grip at every corner. Even when you finally do find the limit, its a smooth, predictable slide with the rear end gracefully rotating and keeping the nose in. Super easy to balance the nose and keep it tucked into the corner just right.

As for 500hp? I am really close to 500 crank with the GTA in a NA LT1. I need a larger cam, but the AFR195's can support it. If I had a 383, or 396 short block I'd be there all day long.

 

Yeah and a cavalier was 8 grand in 89. Same class as a focus imo.

 

Can say the same about the base F-cars. Cheap, slow, and bad interiors.

 

Yes the price was a bit steep for a "Focus" but you could roll off the lot and beat the Mustang GT from 0-60. You compare options to options on the Mustang and it was a bargain IMO.

The amazing part of this was it wasn't the first go around. They had built AWD Escorts in Europe back in the 90s.92-96. They just really screwed the pooch on the execution on this one. It is unfortunate, it is a very cool car IMO.