2 questions about changing rear ends
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Car: 89 rs, 86 Trans Am
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2 questions about changing rear ends
I'm thinking of changing from a 3:42 rear to a 3:08. the 3:08 is from an 85 z28 5 speed
1. Will I have to change the entire rear, or can I just swap the gears?
2. Won't this throw off my speedometer, and what do I have to change to get it correct again?
1. Will I have to change the entire rear, or can I just swap the gears?
2. Won't this throw off my speedometer, and what do I have to change to get it correct again?
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Re: 2 questions about changing rear ends
Can't just swap the gears.
Of course it will mess up the speedo.
A bigger question is, why would you want to downgrade your car that way? That's ... awful. Maybe start at the very beginning, instead of somewhere in the middle, with your whole line of thought.
Of course it will mess up the speedo.
A bigger question is, why would you want to downgrade your car that way? That's ... awful. Maybe start at the very beginning, instead of somewhere in the middle, with your whole line of thought.
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From: Mesquite, Texas
Car: 89 rs, 86 Trans Am
Engine: RS-V6... Trans Am-LG4
Transmission: RS-T5... Trans Am 700r4
Re: 2 questions about changing rear ends
Highway MPG. I travel a lot on the highway, (I put over 400 miles a week on my car) so if I could turn down the RPMs a little, I would be happy, even if it cost me some zip off the line.
I am upgrading engines to a 3.4 that will have a lot more torque and HP than my 2.8, so I wouldn't be changing rear ends until then.
I am upgrading engines to a 3.4 that will have a lot more torque and HP than my 2.8, so I wouldn't be changing rear ends until then.
Re: 2 questions about changing rear ends
Swapping the complete rear end would be easier. Setting up a set of gears is not a job for someone who doesn't know how. There is a lot involved in setting up gears that the average person doesn't understand. You would also be going froma 3 series differential to a 2 series, so it would be more than just the gears that would need to be swapped. I doubt that you would see much or any noticable difference in the fuel mileage.
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From: Saratoga Area, New York
Car: 1990 Formula Firebird
Engine: 305 TBI (LO3)
Transmission: WC T-5 out of an 88 T/A
Axle/Gears: 10 bolt, 3.42 & Torsen Posi
Re: 2 questions about changing rear ends
With the 5 speed there isn't a direct relationship between cruising RPM and fuel mileage, which is a common misconception.
The first thing to consider is that each engine has a a unique efficiency range based on how the engine is built and how it is tuned. You'll get peak efficiency if you can keep the car in this certain RPM range.
Second thing is you have to consider engine load has a BIG influence on fuel mileage. With the 3.08s vs the 3.42s the engine will have to work harder with 3.08s to maintain the same speed at a lower RPM.
Have you calculated what your cruising RPM would be with the 3.08s?
I don't think changing your rear end will give you the fuel mileage your looking for, and I think in the long run you'll just be disappointed
The first thing to consider is that each engine has a a unique efficiency range based on how the engine is built and how it is tuned. You'll get peak efficiency if you can keep the car in this certain RPM range.
Second thing is you have to consider engine load has a BIG influence on fuel mileage. With the 3.08s vs the 3.42s the engine will have to work harder with 3.08s to maintain the same speed at a lower RPM.
Have you calculated what your cruising RPM would be with the 3.08s?
I don't think changing your rear end will give you the fuel mileage your looking for, and I think in the long run you'll just be disappointed
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Car: 89 rs, 86 Trans Am
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Transmission: RS-T5... Trans Am 700r4
Re: 2 questions about changing rear ends
I guess I'm having a hard time understanding how an engine works harder to maintain highway speeds if the RPM is lower.
And yes I did the math for what the difference would be. 200 RPM lower at 70 MPH. not a huge change
I don't understand why this wouldn't be an upgrade if I'm not into speed (obviously not because I have v6) but enough people have told me it's a bad idea that I just told the guy who I was going to buy the rear end from that I'm not in the market anymore
And yes I did the math for what the difference would be. 200 RPM lower at 70 MPH. not a huge change
I don't understand why this wouldn't be an upgrade if I'm not into speed (obviously not because I have v6) but enough people have told me it's a bad idea that I just told the guy who I was going to buy the rear end from that I'm not in the market anymore
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From: RI
Car: 1984 Camaro Berlinetta
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Re: 2 questions about changing rear ends
An 85 Z28 Stick shouldn't have 3.08's in it - at least not factory equipped.
From a saved link from Camaro5:
4th gen V6 / rear end info ----->
A while back I told you this:
While I still believe that's true for the 2.8 (135HP 165TQ) it's not really true with a 3.4 (165HP 200TQ). Compared to factory stock 3.4 cars with 3.23 gearing,.... stepping back 1 gear to a 3.08 for the purpose of better fuel economy is the opposite of someone stepping up 1 gear to a 3.42 for the purpose of better performance. Better expect to wear the clutch a bit faster and to loose every light to light 'race'..... but if your goal is fuel economy - who cares.
Remember; 99 % of people you talk to do NOT build a Camaro with fuel economy in mind !! Don't play off other peoples beliefs, mindset or bias. Be well informed and make the best call to fit your needs based on facts. It's YOUR ride and only YOU need to be satisfied with it. For the record: I STILL believe that getting the 3.4 running FIRST, then driving the car (BEFORE changing rear/gears) is your best play.
From a saved link from Camaro5:
4th gen V6 / rear end info ----->
2.73 - These do not come as factory equipment on any V6 F-Bodies, though they are offered on some V8 models. Gears this low are designed for two things: sustained high speeds (very, very high speeds, like Autobahn-style) and for long-distance highway gas mileage. An F-Body equipped with 2.73s will have a very low rpm at highway speeds, and coupled with a 6-speed transmission they are excellent for long-distance cruising. Low-end acceleration, however, is terrible. The engine has to struggle to get the wheels to spin, so do not plan on getting 2.73s if you enjoy actually moving when you hit the gas at a stoplight. V8 owners can get away with running 2.73s because they have obscene amounts of low-end torque, but there is no real reason any V6 owner would want these. Contrary to popular belief, a V6 equipped with 2.73s would actually get worse mileage than stock if doing any sort of city driving, because the engine has to struggle so hard to get the car up and running. That alone cancels out the low-cruising rpm advantage.
3.08 - These come as factory equipment on base model automatic 3.8s. These gears are great for fuel economy but offer very sluggish acceleration. If you are even remotely interested in performance stay away from 3.08. V6 owners have been known to drop from 15.8 to 15.2 in the quarter mile just by switching from 3.08 to 3.42.
3.23 - These come as factory equipment on all 3.4s and on manual 3.8s with or without the Y87 performance package. Since the Borg-Warner T-5 manual transmission has five gears compared to the 4L60-E automatics four, manual owners can get away with using this lower ratio. For the majority of manuals these gears tend to work best: they combine a good mix of acceleration and very strong top end. They are, however, still a bit low for most automatics.
3.42 - These come as factory equipment on automatic 3.8s equipped with the Y87 performance package. 3.42s are probably the most popular gear ratio for performance-minded V6 owners because they offer great acceleration without killing too much top end. If you have an automatic its pretty safe to say that 3.42s are your best bet. Some manual owners have switched to 3.42s and have had good results with them as well.
3.73 - These do not come as factory equipment on any F-Body. 3.73s offer arguable gains. Low-end acceleration is excellent and you can be assured of quicker 60 foot times with 3.73 gears equipped. However, the 3.8 V6 in naturally aspirated trim tends to fall flat on its face in higher gears--fourth for manuals and third for automatics. 3.73s will put you in those high gears quickly, so then when you actually get to the top end your acceleration will be decreased at best, butchered at worst. Additionally, with 3.73s equipped your engine will be rev quite high when driving at highway speeds, typically at 2500-2800 rpm. For prolonged periods of time this can cause excessive engine wear and terrible gas mileage.
4.10 - This is truly all-out when used on a V6. 4.10s should only be used by serious drag racers who dont care how much gas their car guzzles on the streets. On a naturally aspirated 3.8 they will kill the top end, so dont even think about 4.10s unless you are running forced induction or nitrous oxide to make the additional power they will need.
3.08 - These come as factory equipment on base model automatic 3.8s. These gears are great for fuel economy but offer very sluggish acceleration. If you are even remotely interested in performance stay away from 3.08. V6 owners have been known to drop from 15.8 to 15.2 in the quarter mile just by switching from 3.08 to 3.42.
3.23 - These come as factory equipment on all 3.4s and on manual 3.8s with or without the Y87 performance package. Since the Borg-Warner T-5 manual transmission has five gears compared to the 4L60-E automatics four, manual owners can get away with using this lower ratio. For the majority of manuals these gears tend to work best: they combine a good mix of acceleration and very strong top end. They are, however, still a bit low for most automatics.
3.42 - These come as factory equipment on automatic 3.8s equipped with the Y87 performance package. 3.42s are probably the most popular gear ratio for performance-minded V6 owners because they offer great acceleration without killing too much top end. If you have an automatic its pretty safe to say that 3.42s are your best bet. Some manual owners have switched to 3.42s and have had good results with them as well.
3.73 - These do not come as factory equipment on any F-Body. 3.73s offer arguable gains. Low-end acceleration is excellent and you can be assured of quicker 60 foot times with 3.73 gears equipped. However, the 3.8 V6 in naturally aspirated trim tends to fall flat on its face in higher gears--fourth for manuals and third for automatics. 3.73s will put you in those high gears quickly, so then when you actually get to the top end your acceleration will be decreased at best, butchered at worst. Additionally, with 3.73s equipped your engine will be rev quite high when driving at highway speeds, typically at 2500-2800 rpm. For prolonged periods of time this can cause excessive engine wear and terrible gas mileage.
4.10 - This is truly all-out when used on a V6. 4.10s should only be used by serious drag racers who dont care how much gas their car guzzles on the streets. On a naturally aspirated 3.8 they will kill the top end, so dont even think about 4.10s unless you are running forced induction or nitrous oxide to make the additional power they will need.
You don't want the 3.08 with the V6. Chevy used the 3.08 with V6 in the early years and corrected their mistake by using primarily the 3.42 gear for V6 after 83. ( many 3.23's out there too ! )
Remember; 99 % of people you talk to do NOT build a Camaro with fuel economy in mind !! Don't play off other peoples beliefs, mindset or bias. Be well informed and make the best call to fit your needs based on facts. It's YOUR ride and only YOU need to be satisfied with it. For the record: I STILL believe that getting the 3.4 running FIRST, then driving the car (BEFORE changing rear/gears) is your best play.
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Re: 2 questions about changing rear ends
That link is WRONG.
The L69/5-spd cars ALL came with 3.73 AFAIK; and at least SOME OF the L69/auto cars.
Having had a L69/5-spd/3.73 one for around 30 yrs now, I can tell you the gas mileage is not materially different from the otherwise same combo except with 3.23; since I had a 3.23 in the car for a coupla years when the OE rear broke. Boy WAS I EVER GLAD to get rid of that POS when I finally got the right thing back into it...
I cannot comment on what they'd be like with a 6-cyl. I stay as far away from those things as I can get.
I'd tend to agree w John that one major component swap at a time is entirely enough. Do the motor first, then see what else the combo wants.
The L69/5-spd cars ALL came with 3.73 AFAIK; and at least SOME OF the L69/auto cars.
Having had a L69/5-spd/3.73 one for around 30 yrs now, I can tell you the gas mileage is not materially different from the otherwise same combo except with 3.23; since I had a 3.23 in the car for a coupla years when the OE rear broke. Boy WAS I EVER GLAD to get rid of that POS when I finally got the right thing back into it...
I cannot comment on what they'd be like with a 6-cyl. I stay as far away from those things as I can get.
I'd tend to agree w John that one major component swap at a time is entirely enough. Do the motor first, then see what else the combo wants.
Joined: Aug 1999
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From: RI
Car: 1984 Camaro Berlinetta
Engine: LT1
Transmission: T56 6-speed
Axle/Gears: 4.11 LS1 Rear End
Re: 2 questions about changing rear ends
Just to be clear for anyone reading this in the future: That info I posted above details 4th generation, V6 cars.
It has NOTHING to do with the third gen cars and was posted here as a reference to what rear end was originally installed with the 3.4 liter auto and stick F-Bodys. (a 3.23 gear) The passage does mention V8 cars, but only to help explain why 2.73's work with V8's and not V6's.
It has NOTHING to do with the third gen cars and was posted here as a reference to what rear end was originally installed with the 3.4 liter auto and stick F-Bodys. (a 3.23 gear) The passage does mention V8 cars, but only to help explain why 2.73's work with V8's and not V6's.
Last edited by John in RI; Oct 22, 2013 at 09:27 AM. Reason: spelling
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Car: 89 rs, 86 Trans Am
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Transmission: RS-T5... Trans Am 700r4
Re: 2 questions about changing rear ends
Thanks for the information John.
I am going to install the 3.4 first, and I'm trying to decide if I want to go straight stock or massage it a little. It's pretty easy to get 180Hp out of them with a nice boost in torque. Should be enough to consider using the 3:08, but if I get one someday, and decide I don't like it, its not that difficult to swap back to the old rear end.
My 2.8 is still running strong even after 200K. I can break the tires free if I want to (even can get a chirp in 2nd gear) and that's more than enough for me for using it as a daily driver. My car looks nice and I get compliments on it everywhere I go, and that's enough for me. I'm not one of these guys that has the need or desire to drive around everywhere like a maniac. It would be nice to have more passing power on the highway, which is the only reason I'm thinking of going to the 3.4. Highway guts are lacking for sure
I'll get the 3.4 in, and then if a 3:08 falls into my lap, I'll give it a try.
I am going to install the 3.4 first, and I'm trying to decide if I want to go straight stock or massage it a little. It's pretty easy to get 180Hp out of them with a nice boost in torque. Should be enough to consider using the 3:08, but if I get one someday, and decide I don't like it, its not that difficult to swap back to the old rear end.
My 2.8 is still running strong even after 200K. I can break the tires free if I want to (even can get a chirp in 2nd gear) and that's more than enough for me for using it as a daily driver. My car looks nice and I get compliments on it everywhere I go, and that's enough for me. I'm not one of these guys that has the need or desire to drive around everywhere like a maniac. It would be nice to have more passing power on the highway, which is the only reason I'm thinking of going to the 3.4. Highway guts are lacking for sure
I'll get the 3.4 in, and then if a 3:08 falls into my lap, I'll give it a try.
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From: Saratoga Area, New York
Car: 1990 Formula Firebird
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Transmission: WC T-5 out of an 88 T/A
Axle/Gears: 10 bolt, 3.42 & Torsen Posi
Re: 2 questions about changing rear ends
It takes a certain amount of torque to overcome friction, drag, ect going down the highway. To maintain a certain speed, this torque must be applied to the drive wheels and is basically constant. If you reduce the gears in the rear end the torque that must be applied to the pinion increases to provide the same amount of torque to the wheels, meaning the motor must produce more torque @ a lower RPM, to do this you have to increase the throttle, decreasing your fuel economy.
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Re: 2 questions about changing rear ends
But if I'm changing engines to one that would give me a significant increase in Torque (the 3.4) than wouldn't changing to a different rear end be a good idea? GM didn't use a 3:42 with the 3.4's so why should I?
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From: Saratoga Area, New York
Car: 1990 Formula Firebird
Engine: 305 TBI (LO3)
Transmission: WC T-5 out of an 88 T/A
Axle/Gears: 10 bolt, 3.42 & Torsen Posi
Re: 2 questions about changing rear ends
I'm not saying its not a good idea. I'm just trying to provide you with enough information to make an informed decision. If GM used a different gear with the 3.4L then go for it, but 3.08 is still pretty low for a V6. I don't think GM ever paired a V6 with the 3.08.
I'm not very familiar with V6s. Did the 3.4L ever come in a 3rd gen? Or just a 4th gen? Keep in mind that 4th gens are somewhat different beasts. They reduced the weight when they went to the 4th gens so the motor has less *** to haul around, so what gearing works with a 3.4L in a 4th gen may not necessarily be best for a 3.4L swapped 3rd gen.
I'm not very familiar with V6s. Did the 3.4L ever come in a 3rd gen? Or just a 4th gen? Keep in mind that 4th gens are somewhat different beasts. They reduced the weight when they went to the 4th gens so the motor has less *** to haul around, so what gearing works with a 3.4L in a 4th gen may not necessarily be best for a 3.4L swapped 3rd gen.
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