Grim Reaper

TunerCat has just released their new "beta test" versions of the $88 (7730 SD V6 F-body) and $3A (302 MAF V6 F-Body) TDFs. They have authorized me to find some trustworthy V6 F-body owners to "beta test" these new TDFs.

I have already got enough beta testers for the $88 SD version, but I am still looking for $3A MAF users. If you own a older V6 F-body that used MAF and the 302 ECM, own prom burning equipment or have access to prom burning equipment OR if you live close to the Kamloops area where I can personally work with you; please e-mail me offline.

I am going to make this post "sticky" for a couple of days until I can find a $3A user and then I will delete this post entirely.

89camaroRSV6

glenn..i have a 89 RS

7302

is that for 302 / 302A
i noticed there were 2 different computers ??

and what involves in beta testing these things..

im a grad student in computer science ..ive beta tested computer software before ....but whats involved in this...

and the chip 27CXXX might not directly sit on the ECM base ..
the chip has sort of a carrier (a black plastic cover of some kind

Grim Reaper

I can't answer the ECM question, I never get an opportunity to touch a V6 F-body. But the $3A is for the MAF 2.8.

As for "testing", if you have a burner (a requirement), read Traxion's article, then all you do is download TunerCat for 30 days (the free trial period) and I will forward the file that contains the $3A.

You would start by reading your stock eprom/memcal, SAVE IT (you may have to return to the stock BIN) and then try reading the BIN with the $3A TDF and make a few "small test changes" and monitor the results with a scan tool to see if the change worked.

It it does, then try something "more daring" like advancing the spark table (highway cruise range is the safest to start) and again drive around and watch if the spark advance has now changed based on the modification you made.

Whatever you do, DO NOT make too many changes at once, do get a second memcal if possible (V6 Memcals are a dime a dozen at wrecking yards as they are the most common source of ECMs - you may also talk with John Millican. I know he said that he can get his hands on hundreds of those - it's the V8 ones that are tough to find). AND at the slightest hint of trouble - STOP THE CAR IMMEDIATELY and restore the Memcal. Now you know why I recommend having a second memcal.

If you need more information and the "terms and conditions", e-mail me privately.

89V6FBIRD

That plastic carrier, I just broke it off with a pair of wire cutters. I broke it off piece by piece tho, the PROM comes out with a screwdriver, very gently. Use the wire cutters to cut the 4 corners of the the plastic thing. I did not see any other way of gettin it out. Now all I need is Glenn to send me the beta file.

Grim Reaper

Have you sent me an e-mail (I've gotten a lot and not everyone is selected based on their skill and access to equipment)? If not, send me one and identify yourself. If you have, send another request.

I've already gotten a number of responses from the first group of testers and we are waiting for a revised TDf from TunerCat for the changes identified. I hope to have something by the end of the week.

One interesting tidbit. Denis from Chile tried the $88 MAP TDF and BIN on a 1986 2.8 MAF Celebrity AND IT WORKS! It may be possible for 2.8 V6 F-bodies to do the same. This COULD be an alternative for those 2.8 V6 guys who's MAF dies. They could then run just on MAP.

Hopefully Denis will see this post and give more details. But if you have a 2.8 V6 MAF F-body. Try running the $88 TDF/BIN from the 1227730. It may work also. The $88 is quite nicely defined I should add.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Ok, I have no experience in this, But I have looked into just buying a chip, and I'm not so sure. How much cash does it cost to get into this stuff, what equipment? Where can I get the stuff from?? Does it work on dodge, ford, rice burners as well?? I'm willing to try and learn a little. I have two vechials I can play with. One is highly modfied, the other isn't.

Denis.V

O.K. Now I need test a $3A bin in the same car (It's a 1988 Celebrity factory equipped with MAF & MAP).

1.- The car run with both MAF & MAP (with $6d original bin)

2.- The car run in MAP based only (with $88 bin) at normal condition.

3.- The car run in MAP based only (with $6d bin + MAF disconnected + SES light displayed: code 23).

4.- The car run in MAF based only????????
Please, send me a $3A bin for this test. (There are a blank EPROM waiting for this bin today).



Denis v.

Denis.V

Good news!

5.- The car run in MAF based only (with $6d bin + MAP disconnected + SES light displayed: code 34).

6.- The last test with a $3A bin?? . Where????.

My email: dvassiliu@hotmail.com


Thanks in advance


Denis V.

Grim Reaper

Denis, you should have both a $3A Bin and the latest version of the $3A TDF from TunerCat. TC found your information very interesting about the $88 working on cars originally using the $6D.

Denis.V

O.K. Note the following:

The main spark table for $6d and $88 is bassically the same (same º advance, same size: 17 columns x 17 rows) but the location is different:

For $6d calibration this table has a startadress at 7f cell but in the $88 mask it start at 10d into the EPROM.

How can the ECM know where each table is in order to read a real spark table (in order to start and run the car) and no other thing?

I think because only the top of the EPROM ( aprox. 1/8) has the tables and constants that we modificate. In the other 7/8 there are alghoritms, formulas, parameters, etc. and they indicates to ECM, that it is an "universal" machine, where each table/constant is in the specifical EPROM/calibration.

For this reason, cuold be possible that a car run with other "more supported" calibration for TunerCat (for ex. $88 instead $6d).

(Mmmm, I think a new good market for TC).


Denis V.

Denis.V

.

Denis.V

Previous file attached is how GM went from MAF to MAP between 1986 and 1989 in V6s celebrity models.
For this 4 years the ECM connections and wires were similar.

1.- On 1986 the engine management was in a MAF basis.

2.- On 1987 a MAP sensor was added to the same wiring diagram.

3.- On 1989 the MAF sensor and relay were eliminated and the wire diagram remained the same (without MAF wires).


A same car can go from MAF to MAP with littles modifications, or can has MAF & MAP too, without MAF elimination. Then, for MAPs V6s with 1227730 ECM a $88 calibration can be used, but my theory is: For max. competitive performance a combination MAF + MAP is most complete and better, but a $6d calibration would be necessary.

For V8s ???...

Denis V.

Grim Reaper

Did you know that LT1s that use both MAP and MAF run faster in "MAP Only" mode? And that MAF sensor (and computer logic) is FAR more advanced than the MAF system used in 3rd Gens.

A MAF sensor represents an "intake restriction" that is expensive as hell to replace. That is why so many guys convert to SD (MAP based). It also cannot correct properly for elevation, temperature or humidity changes.

Denis.V

Plop! I replaced my MAF 1 year ago (at least, I bought a remanufactured at carparts.com for $ 47).

Then, the "ranking" could be?:

1º Only MAP
2º MAP + MAF
3ª Only MAF

Other thing:

I downloaded all the $3A bins from bin-lib, but all of them have 4096 cells saved only and my car run in limp home mode and no test is possible.

Note that the $88 & $6d bins have 32768 cells saved (all of them). Too many difference or all the $3A bin are bad?.

Then, the $88 could be the most "popular" calibration for V6s (probably the Beretta's guys will be very hapy).

Denis.V

Well, I finished my research and tests (Part I).

I arrived to the following conclusions for V6s (You can have other opinnion, if so, you can make your contribution to this forum too):

"If you have a 6 cylinder car (with ECM) you can tune it partial or completely with only one mask developed for your ECM".

EXAMPLE: My V6 car has a 1227730 ECM with a $6d mask/calibration.
This ECM recognize the $88 mask and the car can run with the $88 bin. Since the $6d is a calibration for a car with MAF and MAP, this calibration includes VE and MAF tables while the $88 is for MAP only and no MAF tables are included. Tuner Cat has just released the beta version for the $88 mask but no $6d.
Then, How can I tune my $6d car?. Easy! I put a $88 bin saved in my EPROM and ready: Now, I've access a tune my car making modifications to VE tables and all the others $ 88 parameters. I can't modificate the MAF tables but with the others modifications I can get a lot of improvements (you don't needs know all the information included in your EPROM for make a good tune).


(Continue in the next message)

Denis.V

For V6s with 1227730 ECM the following mask/bins (32k sizes all of them) can be recognized, calibrated and tuned with the $88 calibration file (use at your own risk; this is only a help for you):

$46 MASK: addb1593 46; ADPS 46; adrr3163 46; adry3192 46 bins.
$55 MASK: Adry2642 55; amas7004 55 bins.
$6D MASK: APUS 6D; Ardc4468 6D; ARXW 6D; ARZW 6D; asmj0692 6D; Asmr 6D bins.
$88 MASK: all 32k size bins with this calibration.
$96 MASK: batz6364 96 bin.
$A1 MASK: ARUT A1; batz6364 A1 bins.

If you needs know if your car has support for start with PROM modifications, you can follows these steps:
1. Identify the engine cylinders (easy: 4L, V6, V8)
2. Determine the ECM type (label in the cover: 1227730, others).
3. Look for the most developped/supported mask for your combo: ECM number-CYLINDER numbers-BIN size.
4. Go ahead with CARE (test at low RPMs/speed). (Continue)

Denis.V

For instance, my car run like a crazy horse at low speed/rpms with a $A1 bin (ARUT A1). You'll needs test your specific car (if your mask isn't developped in TDF or ECU format) in order to arrive to the most easy prom reprogramation solution.

Others general applications for the $88 from Tuner Cat could be:

1987-89 2.8 V6 PFI "W" LB6 (exc. "W" body)
1988-94 3.1 V6 PFI "T" LHO (exc. "W" body)
1988-89 2.8 V6 PFI "W" LB6 ("W" body)
1989-93 3.1 V6 PFI "W" LB6 ("W" body)
1989-90 3.1 V6 PFI turbo "V" LG5

Glenn: If you can, please send this information to TC. Thanks


Denis V.

funstick

the $3a in the 1227302 has a masked rom. you also cant run c3 ecm code in a p4 ecm.

Denis.V

You don't have posts at DIY PROM board. Sorry.

funstick

i have a factory s/d ro speed density update chip thats i am going to make copies of. once i fgure out that silly wiring.

funstick

ok to clear this up.

c3 family ecms 1227302 1227747 etc etc etc use a 2732 eprom
and contian a masked or hidden rom. all the calibrations example maf tables are located in the eprom but the OS or source code is mostly located in the rom. the 1227302 found in us cars with 2.8's and mpfi must be different from the overseas versions.

the 1227730 is a p4 family ecm and is far more modular. it has all of its code locked in the eprom or memcal.these ecms use a 27c128 eprom. its possiable given the modular nature of the p4 family to have code from one ecn run in another without to many issues. a good example of this is the turbo sunbird $58 code in the 1227749 ecm will run in a 1227730 ecm provided the wiring is changed.

so some of denis confusion has to be based on the fact that the overseas 1227302 has to be different from our 1227302.

Denis.V

O.K. funstick: "...modular nature of the p4 family..." excellent point. This was my goal with all my tests. The 1227730 ECM permits a wide range for solve reprogram. problems.
Some guys are stopped with PROM reprog. because they have others unknow masks/bins.

(But note that my car has a 1227730 ecm and it isn't an overseas version. This car was in Canada between 1988 & 1995).

funstick

ooh i thought you had a 1227302 my mistake.

Denis.V

Don't worry. More information/discussion about this topic is good.

By the way, if you have access to 1227302 ECM you can contact Glenn and help him to test the new $3A mask beta version from Tuner Cat.


Regards,

Denis V.

funstick

something like that is already in progress.

TomP

We do appreciate your work, Denis.V and funstick & Glenn!!

One point tho, Denis.V, you said in '89, GM eliminated the MAF sensor and relay- on the 2.8 f-body MPFI, the MAF sensor was still used. MAF disappeared in '90, for the 3.1 V6's, and was the first year of MAP on a Gen I MPFI. I think the Gen II (front wheel drive 2.8/3.1 MPFI) had the MAP earlier than the f-bodies; is that what you mean?

Denis.V

O.K., sorry. To clear this:

My comment was about A-body's: 82-90 Celebrity, 82-91 Pontiac 6000, 82-96 Cutlass Ciera and Cruiser, 82-96 Century.

I dont know why GM started with MAP at "family" cars in 1987, and later, at "sport" cars in 1990.

(And Gm used very similars "spark advance tables/curves" for family and sport cars. This is a good reason for start burning the PROMs for specifical purposes: fuel economy / racing / max power / technical reviews / etc...)

funstick

ive got a sort of heavy breathing 2.8 in the works and i can't tune for it without the maf scaler tables. i know tc said there on the way. we will find the limits of the $3a code very quickly. im figuring that it can support the 255grm/sec just fine. currently i have a 2.8 ingesting about 125gm/sec.but with the addtion of some turbos its gonna ramp up pretty quick. i will say so far i have had good luck tunning with the TC product and i am impressed. If tc needs a rom dump or anything let me know ill hook you up.if have like 4 12277302 $3a ecms and plenty more at the bone yard.

BackInBlackGP

I have an 86 SE 'Bird with the 2.8 SFI MAF V6 Manual Trans. I also have an EEPROM burner. Anything I can help with? I have my original PROM and a Hypertech Thermal-Master chip.

funstick

yes email me yr .BIN's

djfreggens@aol.com

you might have a $1f or $3a need to figure that out first. whats the P# on yr ecm ??

BackInBlackGP

OK, give me a few days to get my **** together. I have a couple of other hot projects going on right now, so I'll get to this as soon as I can. What are the EEPROMS size? I need to set the burner up correctly to read them. I also don't want to damage the chip carriers, so I need to disassemble them very carefully...

funstick

well if the chip is 24 pin which it should be you have a 2732 or 27c32 or 2732b or 27c32b they all read the same.

Doward

newbie question - what unit is gm/sec? I know it's airflow, but what exactly - gallons per meter/second, or what?

89camaroRSV6

hey funstick...

i have 2 bins from the 89 7302 ECM...
do u want me to mail them to you???

would u need that ...
im not sure if its a $3A or not...

funstick

yeah email them to djfreggens@aol.com

RBob

iTrader: (1)

grams per second

RBob.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

I am looking to swap my tbi show truck over to mpfi hopefully this fall, I was told I would/could swap to the 1227747 brain with minimal problems to aid in this. What cars/trucks could I find this brain in? And what engine goal of that ride should I look for to be the most direct swap?

I currently am running the 1228062 ll2?? I guess with a hypertech chip.

Also, so I can attempt to learn some of this, I will be lurking in here once in a while to read. So any additional info on subjects would be helpful. Thanks :hail:

TomP

Dale, did you see the "intro to prom burning" by traxion? It's in the tech section. Also browse the messages on the prom board, and do some searches... there's a ton of info in there.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Thanks top, but its looking like i might swap a full 3.4 sefi-dis into my engine compartment rather then just doing the mpfi swap. I thought it had the 3.4kit in it, it dont So I am gonna do the full swap

BackInBlackGP

So I have been unable to read my PROM... The computer says that all bytes are Hex FF. Any thoughts? The burner works, as I can jam other EEPROMs into it, and read/write correctly.

The numbers on the Delco chip are:

(sticker)
DELCO
HNU
5398

(chip)
980
1603 2500
M8540 007122


???

funstick

well the chip in the 1227302 is a 2732a it not going to burn like an eeprom. it writes a 21volts. and is 24 pin as well. maybe checking your programmer configuration might shed some light.

89camaroRSV6

some of the newer cheap programmers cant burn the
2732 / 2716 chips ...they did this to cut costs

as funstick mentioned the older 24 pin chips require 21V
at Vpp to program ...

what kinda programmer do u have??
all 2732's are basically the same
2732A... 27C32 all of them should read the same

BackInBlackGP

I can't recall what make/model the programmer is. It's at the shop, I'll check it on Monday. It is fairly old, only works with a '286 processor or slower. It will not run with a '386 or better. It has 4 ziff sockets; 1 is read/write and the other 3 are write only. We use it to program ROMs for our products.

Programming voltage should have no effect on the ability to read the chip. The voltage just sets the chip into write mode.

89camaroRSV6

if its a old programmer then it should be able to read/write 2732's

the main thing tough is the programmers im talking about neither
read nor program the 2732s

plus the other thing is how many pins does the ZIF socket have??
24 pin 2732 is nto directly pin comatible with teh 28 pin later chips..even if u let the top few pins hanging over...
i think u got some of the settings wrong...

if its a '286 programmer then i think itss DOS software ...i need to have the right program to read the chip ...(is it one of the programmers where there is an different l program to read /write different chips)

AFrikanGoodTime

O.K. After hours of research, I've finally figured out what this lingo is and I have a basic question to ask:

I have the $3A program Id byte and the 1227302 p/n ECM in my car. With this said and confirmed, can anyone tell me what is the best route I can go in purchasing equipment to first be able to read my existing chip, then to be able to program a new chip?

I can purchase a laptop if that is easiest, I have intended on purchasing one already for other purposes.( I'm thinking from what I've read is that the "Pocket Programmer" form Xtronics is the way to go/What I'm not certain is if it need to be accompanied in the car with a laptop, or does it operate without a laptop in the car then tranferred to a home computer for later reading?)

Basically what I a getting at is;"How do I capture the info off of my existing cailbrations and drivng rpm range readouts and transfer that to my home computer so I can then use the poct programmer device to burn the new chip based on changes from my old readings"?

I've learned a basic knowledge of the air/fuel scales with 128 being idea and would need an adequete program that will display those BLM (Block Learn Mutiplier) tables so I can make minor adjustments through the rpm range based on my modifications. Im not so interested in messing with the ignition advance tables because I feel for now that most of that can be just altered broadly via the dist. timing.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Just for others who are/were as confused as I with the lingo:

$3A is the program, and 1227302 is the ECM (computer box)part # that is used in all '86-'89 2.8 maf MPFI Camaros. Its really that simple and all anyone had to say to clear things up alittle.

89camaroRSV6

pocket programmer is good...150 bucks

a cheaper alternative is the Eprommer 5
http://www.ustr.net/

either way u dont have to carry it in the car..

u need to build a ALDL connector..
http://www.winaldl.webhop.net/

that allows u to log all the values...for u to look at
teh connector to build is really easy

whatever programmer u buy make sure it can
read and write 2732's

AFrikanGoodTime

I checked the ALDL link you suggest and it does not support my vehicle or ECM, I have the 1227302/ '87 2.8 V6 RS.

From what I have read so far, it seems to me the best scan equipment I can get showing the most reads per second is a laptop with possibly the diacom program. This is most likely where I am headed.

My nieghbor has a handheld Diacom scanner at his shop that we have used a few times in the past to check my sensors, he'd supervise its use a time or two but I don't want to take advantage of his generosity too much. I'd like to aquire my own scannersetup to tinker with at my leasure.

89camaroRSV6

afrikengoodtime.... use the 1986 v6 MPFI in the config....it works
trust me...
1986and 1989 the stream is the same...10K aldl mode is 25 packets ....

89camaroRSV6

ohh by the way.. u cant get more than one refresh per second

the ECM runs @ 160 bits per second...it has to go thru 25 bytes
thats 25*8 bits... approx a new packet will come every one second (actually its 25*9 as one stop bit...)

so winaldl is the best u can get....if u had a 7730 ECM then the 8192 bps would have worked...

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Was wondering, has anyone ever updated their 2.8 MAF systems to SD? It is something quite a few TPI guys have done. May be worth looking into. There is even a hac for the '730 SD $88 mask. And all of the code is in EPROM.

RBob.