Today while coming home from inlaws my car started ideling Very bad while coming off the off ramp of i95. So bad that the brakes even got hard. I live like 2 blocks from the off ramp so i go thome very fast and shut the car off. Opened up the rad after a cool down and noticed no (not a drop) of coolant in the rad or the overflow tank. So i filled it started it up and instantly was greated by thick smoke from the exauhst while the rad drained out of coolant. I shut it off and checked the dip stick. Well my dip stick is almost halfway covered with thick greenish brown mixture of coolant and oil Head gaskets gone! When i looked over my motor when i first got the car the drivers side seemed to have new valve cover gaskets, i know the exauhst manifold has been off before because it has a new one9exauhst gskt) on and the exauhst manifold was loose. so im thinking they toasted a head gskt before and didnt do them both so now the other went. My car never overheats or anything thats why i think that. I have always worked on my cars, i always do my own brakes, turnups. But the idea of doing the head gskt is really overwelming me I dont have much choice but to do it myself because im out of work right now and cant afford to pay someone to do it.I have a haynes manual and im hoping with that and you guys help ill be ok, so can anyone give me any advice with this job? I would be VERY THANKFUL! Thankyou guys and i hope your Christmas was better then mine.

 

Its not amazingly hard, just precision, and time consuming.

Also if possible, try to get a chiltons manual. Its a little more detailed.

Read the section on pulling heads, and how to re-torke them.

Read the section on adjusting the valves really well!!

Read the section on marking, pulling, installing distributor.

Follow all three above To a T

Will need a good gasket scraper, also a torque wrench, and your flavor of how to check your piston thru plug hole for TDC.

Will also need timing light.

Rest I belive can be done with some basic hand tools.

 

Thanks for the fast reply dale, ive already pulled a distribututor on my old car so i know about the markings and about the gear turning on reinsertion etc.Im searching this site on everything i can find on head gasket replacement and pulling heads. The only real thing im clueless on is adjusting the valves. I mean im not one of those all thumbs people. I mean after i bought my home i found out it needed to be totally rewired. I mean every wire from the outside service in and all throughout the house was bad. After getting several estimates in the thousands i went to home depot and bought a book on how to do it yourself. $400 and two weeks later i did the house mayself, even got it certified and all. So im sure i can handle a head gasket job( im trying to convice myself here guys ) especially with the help of the people on here. I know their is alot of people on here that know waaaayyy more then me thats why i figured id post it on here and ask for all the advice and help you all can spare. thanks again and i hope more people share their advice also.

 

Adjusting valves isnt that hard really. I was confused bigtime first try, I just adjusted them again, and it was easy.

Put piston one TDC (piston 1 up, timing mark on 0 ), then you adjust 6 of 12 (book tells which ones).

Spin pushrods tell you cant move it up n down, and feel some drag spining around, then tighten 3/4 of a crank more (I think 3/4, book says)

Spin engine tell piston 4 is TDC (piston 4 up, mark on 0 again), then adjust other 6.


Presto, just read it a few times, took me a few readings to understand it.

YOU CAN DO IT

 

Hey Br()bert,

I have the GM service manual for the 89 camaros with the 2.8l engine breakdown and build-up which should pretty much cover your engine. If you can use anything from it let me know and I will e-mail it to you. Had that happen to me with a windstar twice in 9 months.

The Trickster!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Thanks Trickster if i run into a problem where i need that ill pm you. Twice in 9 months? Damn that sucks. How'd it happen twice? Dale thanks for the info i just read your post and then read the book, you got it word for word. lol.I had to read the book twice before i understood exactly what they and you was talking about. Pete thanks for the idea. Only thing is i got this crappy digital cam that only takes 15 pics so ill have to run back and forth from the car to my pc to download the pics and take more. i was thinking also of labeling each wire and some of the vac hoses as i take them off like 1 on the wire and 1 on the plug and so on so there is no way ill screw it up when its time to put it all back together. One other question guys, The plenium is two pieces, do the part stores carry the gasket? or what do i ask for? the gasket between the two plenum pieces? I didnt see any posts about people using rtv in that area so i think their is a gasket made for it.

 

It was a 95 windstar and the engines for that year had a ****ty design and the head gaskets sucked big time. I wound up having four engines in about a years time. I also forgot to mention ****tly maintenance by the mechanics on the last two. Parts missing, improperly installed, bolts & nuts loose, hoses not connected, etc.

The Trickster!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Damn Trickster that makes me kinda glad im doing my car myself. At least i know ill follow the "directions" right etc. Also guys i got a price from a mec near me, he said to do the head gasket he would have to charge me $600! BUT he said he'd even change my spark plugs! WOW SPARK PLUGS TOO! Woopie! I think even if i had the money i could do the head gasket myself and spend the rest more wisely

 

ALso as i was serching i saw that some people said that the oil should be drain asap after a head gasket going, should i drain the oil and leave the car with no oil in it as i do the head gasket? Its not like im driving it or even starting it.

 

my xmas was no better

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/new...hreadid=215985

 

Glad I got it right, I just did my valves like 2-3 weeks ago.

Upper intake is 3 pieces, parts stores carry a "kit" that has intake, tb, valve cover gaskets. I'm at work, but I have my kit on the shelf and can get you that exact #

Then you will need head, and possibly exhaust gaskets.

Labeling wires is a good way. Use masking tape and pin. Just make sure after you re-attach, pull the tape off. One friend burnt some tape, somewhat scary. Also a helpful method is to have a tablet next to you, and wright stuff down.

I say drain your "oil" now. If its going to be a week or more before you get to it, pour el-cheapo oil in it for now. Reason I say this is to atttempt lesser chance of rust building on things.

Have lots of favorite drink, and possibly borrow someones back brace thing. Mine hurt for a few days after just doing valves. But im getting old and already have back probs


Have you checked your timing chain? Not to add more crap to the list, but if you havent done it, now might be a decent time to do it. Cars already down, already dirty, your just not taking parts of in that area.

 

thanks for all the help dale, Im going to have to wait till sunday to start unpluging stuff and start on the manifold. Im gonna start taking pics and labeling everything today. I just wont have the time tomorrow to do anything. The motor has 1075k on it now so i think your timing chain idea would be a good one. Guy i know who is trashing all the fi stuff on his v6 is trying to talk me into trashing mine and going carb since i can get an old rs (84 i think) for like 250 and take the crap i would need off of that. But besides not having the extra 250 to get that car, Im not sure i want to do that, i mean besides the fuel pump stuff and wiring , as a friend said ,i dont know if the carb and manifold swap will lose me much power, i mean its a 2.8 as it is. So ill just take pics and label away and keep the fi.

 

the bearings are probably shot too, or soon to be.

Antifreeze tottally ****s them up big time.

 

well from the time the gasket went and the time i shut it off wasnt even 2 minutes. I mean it happend right as i was coming off the off ramp and my house is right there so i didnt drive it like that for long as all. I checked my oil just now (first time in the daylight since it happend) and i got a brown milkshake halfway up the dipstick. It has to be the head on the pass side becasue all the stuff on the drivers side is new, exauhst mani gsk,loose exh manifold, valve cover gsk, you can even see rtv stuff sqweezed out between the manifold and block and out of the valve cover bolts, then when i look at the drivers side i have a leaking valve cover leaking down the front of the block, no exauhst gsk to see. Like it happend before and they did one side. The motor runs very good, when i changed the plugs with who knows how many miles they(prev owner ) put on them plus my 3k they still looked fairly new. No oil on them at all, not all black either. So im set on just doign the head. and driving the 6 till it dies.

 

Why buy a 84 carb 2.8 if you already have a MPFI 2.8?? Their is not a part on that car I would be willing to put on mine (no offense to one who owns one).

Heads are worse.
main bearing size is worse.
In efficent fuel system.
Multi belt pully system, thats not self adjusting.
Mechanical fan.

Ked85, and a few others on an s10 board are having problems finding rebuild kits for the carbs.

All thats wrong with yours (hopefully) is a head gasket. All labor, very little on parts.

 

im not buying it. Just taking my time with the fi stuff and i think ill be ok. Im pretty sure its just the gasket. Car ran great before this happend. Never overheated on me. There was coolant on the side of the engine bay. like the rail by the ac lines. Like it shot out of where the head gasket is when i checked the oil earlier. maybe the gasket has been leaking coolant slowly. Ill take a pic and post it.

 

Wow man, that sucks... but I bet you'll get it all fixed up. For some pictures, you can check out that swap I helped a friend with, http://www.geocities.com/tomp_3rdgen ... oh shoot, well, there's just one picture. (laughs) That won't be much help.

Let see if I can find my old messages... (the guy pulled the heads off, even though me and my buddy told him not to- and it complicated the swap. My buddy and I found out from him months later that the donor engine had blown a head gasket... he never told us.)

Woah, that's cool... messages are still there! Way to go thirdgen.org!

<a href="https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23060" target="newwin">It wasn't broke, but now we gotta fix it</a>

<a href="https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60947">When easy swaps go bad (re: that 2.8-for-2.8 swap)</a>

<a href="https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=75384" target="newwin">How we used Ultra Copper on the china walls, and around the coolant passageway holes (at the front/rear of each head)</a>

Shoot, looks like the picture is gone that I put a link up to (in the last message). Hope that stuff helps!! Don't mess up the order of the pushrods! Get an old shoebox, poke 6 holes into it, label one side "front of engine", and store the 6 pushrods "in order" into the 6 holes.

Um... what else... if you have access to a machinist's straight edge, lay it across the deck (top of engine where the head bolts to) and see if anything's warped. Do the same to the head(s). Hopefully all is still flat.

When you're loosening the head bolts, do it by hand (no air power), and see if you can "feel" if any are super-loose; that's probably where the problem is/was.

Try NOT to re-use old head bolts. The bolts stretch when they're torqued down. This results in bolt threads that are a little further apart then they should be! And if you re-use a bolt, that can result in you stripping out one of the holes! I hope that makes sense. A new set of head bolts is about $15-$20 from a local parts store. This happened to someone on this board a lonnng time ago. For that budget swap, we re-used some head bolts- but we threaded 'em in by hand first. The kid lucked out because I had kept head bolts from when I took the top end of a 2.8 from a junked motor. If a head bolt didn't spin all the way in easily, we swapped it out for another.

And ya know that reminds me, he threw out my set of head bolts when he cleaned his garage up.

I'd drain that oil and pour some cheap stuff in (even used oil!!) as soon as possible; you don't want the coolant rusting up any of your bearings/internals/etc. Change it and the filter again when you're done with the job. And then after driving the motor for a bit, change the oil and filter AGAIN. Watch that your coolant doesn't get clogged up with crap from scraping the head gasket- all the holes around the pistons are the coolant passageways. Maybe you can stuff cotton rags down those little holes while you scrape the old gasket off- don't use paper towels because they might shred away when you try to remove them!!

 

Thanks Tom for all that help. Its good to get advice from people who have been where i am now.You guys are making this much easier for me. I started labeling everything today. I also took notes like Dale said and took pictures.Turns out there wasnt as many wires and hoses to deal with as i thought. I read and reread the book i have about five times now and did i dont know how many serches on this site about anything i could think of that delt with this project. Also seems like this would be a good time to paint the engine bay and either polish or paint the plenum.Plus a friend of mine knows a junk yard that has a Fiero with the valve covers still on it. Maybe i can grab them. Thanks for all the help guys and if anyone can think of anything else that will help id be very thankful. :hail: :hail: :hail:

 

Here's how much it will cost, thereabouts:
$3 for the head gasket itself. (Want mine? I'll GIVE it to you. New, never installed)
$20 for complete intake gasket set.
Unknown for head bolts, never had to replace them.
$3.69 each for an exhaust manifold flange stud. (I guarantee you will either break at least one or pull the whole stud out of the engine and not be able to remove the nut)
$4 for a can of PB Blaster penetrating oil.

(That's around $40 total, not $600! Can anyone say ? )

Might as well check or replace the t-stat while in there as well- $8.

 

It's called overinflation X15, how else do you expect the mechanics to pay for their nice new toys?

The Trickster!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Yep, we still used the intake-to-head gasket. But in the areas where the coolant passageways met the holes in the "front" and "rear" of the head, we traced some extra ultra copper around those, both sides of the gasket.

If you can picture a handlebar mustache, that's almost how the ultra copper looked. Shame that picture is gone... hey, let me edit one of the pics from my website for ya:

 

We did that on both china walls, front and back. Then we laid down the head-to-intake gaskets onto the heads. (The ultra copper helped keep 'em in place.) Then, I'm pretty sure, we "re-drew" the beads onto the coolant passageways, starting from the china walls again. Then we laid the intake manifold down.

The stuff around the coolant passageways was just a bit of insurance against leaks. It was from some info I found on this website. Now granted, that dude's engine only lasted a few months (probably because it had warped heads! If only we knew it's head gaskets were blown before we buttoned the motor up; I woulda had him bring the heads to a shop to check to see if they were flat or not), but the guys on thirdgen.org seemed to like the idea.

Textbook says just to go as far as the head-to-intake gaskets, and stop there. So our extra bit of ultra copper around the passageways wasn't documented in the GM manual.

 

Thanks again Tom p ! By this sunday ill pretty much know everything involved in doing the head gasket. My uncle wants me to Drive to his house to do it in his garage (about 10 mins away) Because i live in the city and dont even have a drive way, but im scared of messing up the engine so im not even starting it till its done much less driving it. So outside my house in the street is where it will be done. Maverick thanks for the price list. I put a 180 stat in the motor like 2 months ago so that should be ok still.

 

my luck was no better but at least i dont have to do head gaskets all i did was melt my accessorie wire

 

I put a 180 stat in the motor like 2 months ago so that should be ok still. [/B][/QUOTE]

most people change the stat when they do head gaskets but you didnt overheat it so it should be ok

 

Your bearings are probably ok, if you caught it that soon. My company car (Buick Century, 3100 V6) had a very bad intake coolant leak recently, and though I did catch it pretty soon the motor was full of coolant (in the oil). I had the oil changed, intake leak fixed , and now, a month later, its still ok.

 

Thanks for the offer Maverick but i think the shipping from you to me will cost me more then it will to go but one. Liquid metal is the ish! I used that alot on my old car. Thanks for the support as far as my bearings. I did catch it really fast. Plus there was a guy round here with a van with a blown head gasket , he drove that thing for almost 2 months before putting it in to get done. he must of gone through a 55 gal drum of oil too because he was changing it every other day!

 

Sounds like its moving along decently.

Waterpump, if you have no clue the condition, your already their, so if you have the money to spare, go for it.


You will need to rent/borrow a gear puller, and a "steering wheel puller" for the timing chain swap.

Best of luck. Where here to answer questions.

600 sounds "decent" for a head gasket repair. Remeber, most shops charge 45-75 PER HOUR.

 

I have that price (the timing chain) too- it's around $30 with both gears, depending on where you go. I guess I'll do that when I end up replacing the timing cover.

 

My water pump has been "dripping" for a short time now. Not much, like 3 small drops per 20 minutes so i might as well do it now. I really dont have the money to spare,being out of work right now,but i really like my car and i want it to run good without having to worry about things going at the wrong moment, ( i have thought about this since i got stuck about 10 miles from home and had to pay a $90 tow because of a crappy coil) So i figured i'd replace what seems to be the weakest things now 1. the head gskt of course, 2. the water pump, and 3 the timing chain since the motor has 1075k on it now.And spark plugs but i already have them so they dont count in the cost.Thanks for all the help guys dont know what id do without it.:hail: :hail: :hail:

 

That really sux... And, since nobody has said it yet: Replace BOTH head gaskets! NEVER I mean NEVER go through the trouble unless you replace them both. It's Not a good Idea to just replace the one thats leaking, -trust me-. You may have to do slightly more work, but that's nothing if you blow the other one in a couple weeks. Don't take the cheap way out either, buy the gaskets from the dealer! There are major differences in quality. Also, Check the head surfaces for warpage (Although, even if you're on a budget, you should send them to the machine shop anyways...). Never do a Halfway headjob, believe me, it's bad for your blood pressure. Good luck. I've done head jobs on ALL kinds of cars, if you have a tech question, holler at me.

 

Thanks for all the advice, I know the reason why the gskt went is because the prev owner blew the drivers side head gskt and only replaced that one. If you look at one side of my motor then the other its like nite and day, one side all clean the other has oil leaking down the front. .

 

Unless you are absolutely sure that the exhaust is leaking or needs to be removed, don't remove it. You will break at least one of the bolts, and replacing them is a PITA because you usually can't get the manifolds off without the bolts being totally removed. Besides, there's an added bonus: you can use the manifold(s) as leverage to remove the head. All you will have to do is unhook the y-pipe which in itself is not a fun thing to do. I also hope you know there are two different flange gaskets... you need the smaller soft metallic type insted of the cast iron ones that weigh around 4 lbs a piece.... besides, they are cheaper!

 

Thanks for the tip maverick, i was going to try to remove them too! lol, im glad people are adding stuff to this thread because its really helping me with this job.:hail:

 

I've tried it on both sides... I think I might have four studs/bolts out of both manifolds left... and I HAD to try to remove the driver's manifold (broken out stud) it still has two bolts left in it which are not going anywhere anytime soon....

 

I got the fuel injectors out and the plenum, starting on the egr bracket thingy now. Bolts are very tight, What sucks is who ever did the drivers side head gasket didnt tighten NOTHING! My valve cover bolts were finger tight, so was my maifold bolts! All my valves on the drivers side are loose also! $ of the manifold bolts could be loosend with two fingers! Lower plenum bolts also. So far the injectors were the hardest to take out. Here is a pic of what i did so far........Thanks to everyone who replied with some help and advice, out of the 340 times this was looked at only a few replied, thanks to those who did.:hail: :hail: :hail:

 

me thinks you found your problem.

 

yeah only thing is on the pass side of the engine bay, down by the head, directly next to it, there is coolant all over the place, like it shot out between the head and block. So tomorrow i have to get some pb blaster because wd40 isnt making the bracket by the egr any easier to take off. So far so good though. And whats with people telling me i need to adjust the valves with the motor runing?

 

NOOO, do not adjust rockers with engine running!!

:nono: :nono:

 

lol, it sounded stupid when i heard it.

 

Glad to hear it's going well!! It was a pain in the *** job enough with that motor being on an engine stand... I can just imagine what a bitch it is with the motor still in the car.

Hey one thing I completely forgot about- find a new set of O-rings for your fuel injectors!! You might have snapped a few pintle caps by now, or you might later... I was told not to worry about them too much. The caps help keep dirt/dust out... but if you re-use your old O-rings, you could be in for trouble. They're probably dried out and cracked by now, and you'll get vacuum and/or fuel leaks if you re-use them. The kit is made by Standard, part number is SK-9. I was able to find it at Pep Boys... IIRC, it was a v8 o-ring kit, so you'll have a few left over- nice bonus! They'll be brown/orange colored, not black, meaning that they're fuel-resistant.

And be careful threading that cold start injector tube back into the top of the fuel rail. I almost stripped mine out- I had bent the cold start injector tube to move it out of the way... and when I put my injectors back in (on my motor), the tube was still bent a bit. So it was trying to make the threads go back into the fuel rail at an angle! I finally realized this and had to slightly bend the cold start injector tube so it would point "Straight" at the fuel rail connection... I hope that made sense.

 

thanks again TOm, the o rings look new, well newer then everything else, so i guess they(whoever did the drivers side head) replaced them. Ill replace them anyway. It would suck to put the motor back together just to have to take it all apart again! Doing The head gskt with the motor in the car sucks big time, my back is ok but my legs feel like i ran from philly to cali. I only have about 3 hours total working on the car so far. I know i could of been done by now if i worked on it more, but im taking my time cleaning the stuff as i take it out. Plus im doing this outside my house and the weather isnt always the kind you want to be out pulling a motor apart in. Im going away tomorrow for new years so ill start back on the motor thursday. So friday ill probably be putting the head back on along with everything else. I "started" polish the plenum by hand. YEAH RIGHT, that lasted about 5 minutes. :hail: to all you guys who did yours by hand. Thats alot of work, i think ill just paint mine. PS i didnt bend the cold start injector tube to much, its still bent hanging like 4 inches from the manifold.

 

if u take youyr heads off u might as well take em to a machine shop and have them check em with the magnuflux to see if their cracked.I had cracked ones from the girl I bought my car off of she drove it for 3 months with a bad thermostat!RETARDS DRIVING!!! go have em done get a valve job if you have the cash!good luck.Hey TomP on the 89 injectors does it need the plastic piece on the tip to work right?one of mine broke while putting it in!PM me TomP or anyone else who might have experience with that.also where can I get the hard vacume line that goes from the back of the intake manifold to the throttle body and the egr valve?thanks

 

I snapped my hard plastic line when i was taking it out, Not really a problem though, also while i had them out i got some gloss black vht and painted my upper and lower plenum, throttle body and alt. im going to paint the valve covers too since i probably wont get those feiro ones.

 

<- thinks to self. Must polish intake

 

Got the dist and all the spark plugs out, got the manifold almost off,(damn its a pain in the a$$ to get off

 

Well i got the rods out, i kept them seperate like you guys said to. Now its down to the end of the job, well the tear down job, Im down to the exhaust bolts and the head bolts,neither of them can be removed right now because i dont have the tools and im waiting on my pay to come in.So when it does come(like tues or weds) I have to get a real ratchet not the cheap one i have been using($10 k-mart brand), a tq wrench, some pb blaster, all the gskts and rtv etc ill need. then i can start putting it all back together. ONE question though, The dist doesnt go through the intake manifold so why did i have to remove it?

 

The intake manifold helps to hold the heads themselves in place, plus the heads have studs screwed into them that hold the manifold in place, unless they are like mine in which the whole stud comes out when you turn the nuts...

You don't need extra RTV. If you get FelPro upper end gaskets, they come with a tube of RTV black in the package. I bought an extra tube of RTV red just in case I needed it.

 

Thanks again Tomp p .

 

No clue, who told you you needed to remove the intake manifold to remove the distributor? Not sure if they told you that because it might make removing the distributor hold down clamp easier to remove but its not neccessary if your creative.