firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Started fabricating the alt mount brackets. Just so you know, the stock RWD 60* brackets will work with some minor modification, but I need room for some turbos...




Not really happy with the placement of the alt. Lower would be better, but the huge engine mounts are gettin gin the way. I made this prototype out of some scrap AL (probably see the extra tooling marks in it, lol). Might move it to get some more room for the headers.
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Sorry for the dalay in updates, been working on a few items like a PCV catch can and FWD dog-bone mounts (billet CNC'd )...




Last edited by firstfirebird : Today at 09:50 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Enlarge the holes a little on the P/S bracket...



A/C bracket needs one new hole...


The neighbor at the shop re-builds alts and starters, and I asked him today if he has any GM alts layning around. He said yes, but if yours works, I'll rebuild it for free, and it will look "pretty". Let's see what kind of job he does, neighboly love for ya, lol.

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

Looks really good.
Lots of good info I will need in this thread
I wish I could get my parts that nice and clean

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Using the t-stat housing you go tfrom TCE, you should be able to mod your alt braket as well.

If you want your parts to be almost as clean - go to Home Depot and get yourself a gallon of Formula88 available in the cleaning dept. Pour 1/2 the gallon in 3 gallons of water in a paint bucket. Set your parts in there over night and the grease will almost fall off there the next day. It will not rust parts, and is re-usable. Dunk them now and again to rinse off, but most of it will come off with a garden hose the next day.

Doing that will save me 1/2 the time on the sandblaster. Painted surfaces take for ever with the blaster, but an acetone bath speeds that up a bit, lol.

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

Yea, once I get my block back (getting tired of waiting) I will see what I can do with my brackets...It should be doable.

And Ive never heard of Formula88. I got the day off tomorrow...I might have to try that out. Thanks

Kevman

So does this all come included in the kit, like the alt. bracket, A/C bracket, and the modified parts, or do I have to do the work at home? Because I'll definitely do it in the summer if it comes already pre-done. Thanks, KP.

dodger65

i might be able to pick up a 2000 3500 from an intrigue. i can't seem to find the post that discusses heads for the 3500, but are these the same as the later 3500 heads/intake?

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

That's not the same 3500. The 3500 you would need to look at is from the G6, Malibu and a couple of other cars. It's the non-VVT version you need to look for (04-06?)

Kev, that's the plan

3500 heads won't fit on the 2.8/3.1 bore, 2000 up 3400 heads are the best option. You will need a 3.4 to use 3500 heads.

Kevman

Oh yea, I'm hunting for a 3.4. I'd really love to do this, it's a hell of alot cheaper then a new car

dodger65

cool. thanks, ff

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Before cleaning/glass beading....



Close up of the holes enlarged on the iron head coolant neck. This means so far all the stock brackets can be used, but I will have to machine an adapter...



Cose up of the mounting holes moved...
Some new problems arised, though. Now the TB isn't going to work, it's on up-side down in the pics because the black alt bracket and alt is in the way. I may have to swing the alt down a little and fabricate a replacement (for the small black bracket), re-configure the TB, or use another TB. The alt bracket has two bolts and only two contacts on the head, this could be unstable at high RPM's, so need to figure out something to make to hold the bottom bolt hole to the lower boss on the front of the pass side head.



The A/C bracket, I feel comfortable with. It has two bolts to hold it, with opposing contacts on the head for stability, but the new bolt hole is through some thin cast aluminum and I don't want it to break. To remedy this, I plan on using a steel sleeve over the bolt behind the bracket - so it gets "sandwiched" between the bracket and head when torqued down.

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

It just keeps looking better and better. Thats going to look real nice once you get it in the Firebird. Have you given any thought to your tranny? You dont have as many miles on yours as I do on mine, but with the added HP do you think it will hold up?

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

We will see, lol.

89k miles on the V6 internals + 100 more HP = ?

I never rebuilt a trans, but maybe it's time to learn.

midwest

Ok ok
Just to recap cause i want to make sure i am following around correctly.

In your build.
You are useing a 3500 top end, with a 3.4l block.
3400 crank with under sized journals cause it was a deal. You could use either 3.4 or 3400 crank cause they are the same?
Your using the 3.4 pistons so those with the small chambers of the 3500 heads will give you a scr of 11.x:1
If you where to run the 3400 pistons you would get around 8.9:1?
For ignition you can use the stock 2.8 ecm. And wire to the icm, the icm is what does the distribution calculations.
you had to cut an ear of the timming cover for the water neck to clear.
You can use the "Stock" accessory brackets. Stock to what? The 2.8 the 3.4?
Your going to use the rwd water neck but need to make an adapter.


Do you happen to know what the scr of the 3400 heads with the 3.4 pistons would be?

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

SCR is g11.5:1 with 3.4 pistons, 3500 gaskets and 3500 top end.

3400 pistons and 3500 heads is 9.1:1 and the 3400 heads and 3400 pistons is 9.6:1.

I used 3.1/2.8 brackets on 3500 heads, yes.

There are two post 86 cranks, one has the timing notches. You need a way to get a crank signal to the ICM if a 3.1/2.8 block is used since the 3x00 manifolds cover the distributor hole in the block.

The ECM does the timing advance calcs, but the ICM is wha interperates the crank signal into spark (much like the little reluctor wheel in the distributor).

midwest

Ok another quick guestion, haha
I am very into performance building of atvs. In that world. 13:1 is pump gas doable with a medium sized cam. Our medium cam is some thing like 260 I 270 E duration at .040" 110 lca.

Anyways, I want to turbo charge my hybrid. And still run on pump gas. IS 9.6 with 10 -15 psi or so pump gas doable?

If its not do you know where i can get some lower cr pistons?

KBcobra

I heard that a thicker head gasket can change your cr. , firstfirebird is there an engine dyno near by?

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

We'll find out. My build is going to be around 9.5:1 with 10psi. Should be a fun time.

midwest

I got an idea for the computer..
730 ecm, code59 xdf and a bin form a 90 3.1 turbo form the turbo grand prix.
Heres the list of bins form the 3.1 turbo. " ASAN, ASMF, ATMJ, ATMK, AUAD, AUAF, AUFR, AZRC"
Those bins are for the 727 underhood ecm, but should work in the 730.
I figure since the engine size is pretty close, and its turbo, plus it would work with the 730, those bins would make an excellent starting place.

What do you think?

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Earlier in the thread, I showed pics of the MegaSquirt, but am going to try the $59 code first - thanks Six_Shooter, lol.

Thanks for the looking out, though The $59 has it's own forum now, even (I'm Forced_Firebird there, as most other sites).

It will be dyno'd we have a mustang Dyno right down the street from the shop.

As for head gaskets, the worst thing you can do is get thicker ones. The tighter the quench, the more resistant you are to detonation. The "majic" number is .040" and I'm at .050" right now, really too much, but i just used the 3500 gaskets that came with my top end kit for the 3500.

As far as boost and compression, again I plan on proving that high compression and boost is actually a good idea. When the motor gets the turbos back on, I want to change to .045" gaskets, and run two turbos. I know a Mustang with 11:1SCR and 12psi, and he runs on pump gas with iron heads - he's not the only one I have heard doing it, you just have to maintain the tune and not get crazy with boost. This will give me tourque and low RPM hp, where the v6 lacks, then the turbos and high-reving will take care of the top end.

I just want to get the N/A done first, lol.

I might practice with the turbos on a 3.1/3400 with 9.1:1 first sice I have all the parts to build it, that way I don't have to go without an engine again during the swaps and work being done - the car has been on blocks for more than a couple of months already I miss driving it.

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

I know the feeling. Did you ever get the old block out yet?

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Uhh, you can't use a $59 xdf with an $8F bin. They have to match.

besides the XDF is only used to interpret what is in the bin and display that information as something that is easily understood. An XDF can also be thought of as a "mask".

The $8F bins have thier limitations, and while they would work (I used one for a while on my turbo hybrid), using a more developed or defined bin, such as $59, would be better in the end, as there are many more options that can be utilized.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

No, only the block and crank remain, lol. The hoist is at the shop, but have another stand here at the house. Might pressure wash the bay and paint before I pull the skeleton.

^^^See, isn't he persuasive?

Actually after much research, the $59 is very similar to a MegaSquirt in features, but is already wired in my car

Now just got to get rid of the MS to pay for some OBD1 equipment...

KBcobra

im interest on that build please do a full write up on that since im too lazy to go get a 3.4L block

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

I'm back into looking for late model heads for the 88 bird since my brother melted a piston lean @ 15psi. Instead of getting a 3.4 block... and without measuring anything for myself... does anyone think it would work to weld a bung in the oil pan for the crank sensor to run DIS so I can use the late model 3x00top end.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

No, that won't work, because the timing would be too far off.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Won't work. The notches on the crank won't line up with the sensor position correctly.

Edit- oop, sixshooter beat me to it.

KBcobra

im confused the 3.1/3400 hybrid wont work?

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

I will, but you need to get a crank position signal. The 3.4 block has DIS from the factory and has a bung in the block. I compared the 3.1/3.4 blocks and wouldn't trust drilling it, either, there is extra webbing on the 3.4.

The easiest way would to do like Six_Shooter did (and I'll do on the 3.1), use an external trigger and wheel.

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

I had never thought about the timing being off... but what if you play with the base spark value in the ecm? The timing will be off by like 30 degrees with the crank sensor relocated, so just change the base spark number untill your timing in the table matches the timing light at idle... easier yet, turn the distrubutor. Am I way off, cause that sounds too easy to fix?

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

There will be no distributor

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, I was thinking about testing before doing the head swap though... I guess the ony way to find out if changing the timing in the chip works is to try it.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Does your crank even have the timing notches? (all of them have the ring, my 3.1 didn't have the notches, though)

Also do you trust your timing sensor being attached to sheet metal?

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

It does have the notches... and I don't really see a reason not to trust it if I weld a bung to it. I just don't know what the treads are or how close it needs to be to the crank or anything like that.

KBcobra

With a 3400 top end and stock '7730 on a stock engine will the pcm correct the change or a tune is needed?

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

.....

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Finally got some time to work on my own stuff. Told the family i wanted to pull my engine on Father's Day. Started at 11am and had to assemble the hoist and stand (don't fit in my truck assembled), started cooking on the grill by 2pm when our company showed up lol.
Working alone with my boys watching, it's done though...






Looks funny with no engine in it...



Close ups...







And it's ready to go to be hot tanked and then to my shop for a re-build...





Happy Father's Day Y'all!!!

forkvoid

iTrader: (1)

I have that exact same engine stand and hoist.

Is that your original 3.1? I'm not sure if I can stand to see your pretty hybrid in such a messy engine bay.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Yes, that's the 3.1, and no the engine bay isn't getting my work of art until it's just as nice, lol.

Re-locating all the harness, painting and sandblasting are going to be done on the remainder of parts

forkvoid

iTrader: (1)

I would really like to see your ideas on cable management. I attempted it, but the hardest part is deciding what to do with the huge mass at the heater box, as well as the wires to the starter(perhaps lengthening them to get some more room to move around?). The massive bundle at the heater box is my major point of frustration though.

Also: you double posted. Might wanna delete one.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Haha , deleted one. This site has been a PITA for a while now.

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

Good job. Glad to see you finally got some time to do some work on your project.
Also, is that blue painters tape you used to mark your sensor plugs? It looks like a good, familiar, idea

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Look at the dates of the posts


Whatever is available is what gets used for marking, as long as it's a "Sharpie" marker, it doesn't go away lol

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

....

noahTHEpurdy

iTrader: (1)

Looks good! Cute kids you've got there!

zs&tas

cant believe you didnt take the hood off !!!!! good effort
car looks like pimping low rider with hydraulics ;-)

blindreaper1226

I'm just gunna pray you get this engine in the car and running with a video clip up ASAP. I know it takes time I just really wanna get my buddies dad behind me for a build like this. He likes the idea but doesn't wanna see me shell out money for an engine build that has never been run in a 3rd gen f body which is understandable... he wants proof before he invests his time. I think it'd make a nice daily driver with some spray hooked up for the track or saturday night.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Amazing what a little bit of Formula 88 degreaser and a pressure washer can do, eh?

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Bay is painted, and went ahead and hit the cowl, and between the headlights...







Also got rid of the cruise control and heater bypass to make things a little neater

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

That looks real good. Thats actually the next thing on my list...derust and paint the K-member. Now I know how to do it easily