All right, what's the best way to build a cheap no frills stroker shortblock for street use? I just got a bare block. late model 350c.i. with the 1 piece rear main seal. set up for factory roller lifters. sent it to the machine shop for a good cleaning and inspection. I see alot of stroker cranks on ebay for under $200, my buddy at the speed shop tells me they are imported crap that usually fails almost immediatly. Looking for advice from people who have done this before, as allways-thank you in advance-Mike

 

i'm with your buddy.. if your not going to build it right dont' build it.

As far as late model blocks go.. really the only late model block that's worth it's salt has an 880X casting mark on the side.. pretty much all the other ones are prone to cracking in the lifter valley.

If your going to build a "no frills" motor. i'd just do a plain 355.. you get better quality parts for cheaper, and it will last more than 9 months.

where at in jersey are you from?
i'm down by atco a few minutes from the dragstrip

 

If you want to build it cheap and easy, go with a already made rotating assembly kit:

http://store.summitracing.com/partde...M%2DCSUM383KIT

 

In terms of the dollar what do you consider cheap?

 

Well, $1,000 crank and $500 pistons would be not cheap. I just want a decent short block to swap into my iroc when the one i'm running starts to go south.

 

Hmmm...

That clarified your position.

So all you need is the shortblock? Nothing else to hang on it?

Whats your budget, i mean how much would you be willing to spend on the machine work and rotating assembley?

 

Well, machine work aside. prob. $500-$1,000 on parts. closer to $500. I'm already running afr's, lpe 219 cam, edelbrock intake, slp runners, ported plenum, slp headers, bbk tb all the free mods and bla bla bla.
Oh I have a hundred hp shot of NO2 that i have not used yet hence my intrest in a spare short block.

 

There's inexpensive and there's cheap.
Inexpensive is OK, cheap is bad.
A crank that sells on ebay for under $200 is the same crank that your local parts store or machine shop will charge you $450 for.
Search the boards, you'll find that there are a lot of satisfied customers who bought imported parts online.
There are all sorts of quality balanced kits out there for well under $1000.
If you want to go with purchacing parts separately, I have a new 1pc seal Eagle cast stroker crank for sale. PM me for info.

 

speedomotive has stroker cranks on sale for $159.00 shipped. I think this will be the direction I will be taking. Any comments?

 

lol i have the opposite of a cheap 383....most of the parts are in my sig

 

I was gonna use a cast crank, powdered metal rods and some cheap forged pistons. this sould be fine for the street. no? Does anybody know where I could purchase the rotating assembly as a kit?

 

Your biggest problem will be the N20 as far as durability. Otherwise a cast crank is fine. The PM rods are good, and proving to be just a bit stronger than the old "pink" rods that used to be the staple.

You need forged pistons, which are going to cost you. The cast crank may live a while, but if the motor ever detonates it will be junk before you can even lift your foot.

If you decide on the 383 stick with a 5.7" rod. The longer 6" rod will make for shorter pistons that are more unstable, and the deck thickness gets a bit thinner, which isn't good for resistance to high heat and pressure. You don't need the better R/S ratio from the 6" rods. That's what the N20 is for.

Spend money on machine work. Even the best parts will turn into a junk motor is the machine work isn't up to snuff.

 

the only time a 5.7" rod vs a 6" rod comes into question really is for longevity.......because of the so called increase in instability from the shorter piston......if your building motor that needs to last for 150,000 miles, then use the 5.7" rod.......if not, then it doesnt really matter......most engine builders will tell you the same thing, alot of talk goes into rod length, and no huge differences ever surface in power output.....i have 6" rods in my motor personally.....but honestly, its not as a critical of a decision as some people make it out to be

and as far as the deck thickness not being able to stand up to high heat and pressure,

i've had the SAME forged JE piston (6" rod) smack the intake valve TWICE........fluxed it both times, no cracks....piston is still within all tolerances and it barely left a mark on it

if you can smash a piece of steel into the piston crown at xxxx feet per second, and it doesnt break, your obviously in good shape.......if you use quality pistons, there wont be a problem

 

if you go cast crank/stock rod/cast piston contact Powerhouse

if you want all forged assembliy parts use one of the many reputable shops that use ebay as a affordable selling outlet for thier parts. There is no way they could have 1000's of positive feedbacks if they were screwing people. use that as a tool to choose your parts.

but the best way to do it is to find a 383 crank:

cast steel 81-30-03/9000 series (better than regular cast) good enough for most

5140 Forged heavier but very strong for alot of racing

4130 steel nice and strong good enough for many racing applications

4340 forged! top of the line material for max effort motors


remember due to the nature of the counter weight contour you must decide before buying the crank rods or pistons whether you will be using a 5.7" long rod or a 6.0" long rod. since a 5.7" rod is very sufficient, it allows for a larger piston ring due to less ring crowding in the piston crown design, and just plain old costs less for the parts as a whole, this is what I recommend. also if the block you have to use is one piece rear main seal some pricing may vary.

so then find some rods (5.7"):

"sportsman" I-beam rods

4130 Eagle SIR rods good enough for most

same from scat also good enough for most

same rod in 5140 from CAT engine racing known as prowlers also good enough for most

race 4340 I-beam rods

Maybe CAT engine

Scat

race 4340 H-beam rods

CAT engine racing

Scat brand

Eagle brand

choosing between race I beam and H beam is a personal preferrence not a desirability issue. many times thier weights for the race versions are similar. there are some other huge billet pieces also.

then find some pistons

Hypereutectic (perforrmance cast) pistons

speed pro non teflon skirt type

speed pro teflon skirt tpye

Forged

Probe I have heard these are made from TRW/speedpro forging slugs

Lunati

Wiseco



Please understand there are things to consider such as compression (the heads, fuel, street or track applications). You can build a pretty nice engine by ssing ARP rod bolt and prepped stock rods a stock or cast crank that is new or inspected or both and forged pistons with a power adder. That also if you get a nice forged crank and nice forged rods and hyperuetectic pistons that you are only as strong as your weakest link. If you ever ever ever think that even a possibility of a power adder (turbo kit supercharger kit nitrous kit) in your future then go forgd. The block to be used, if it is a 2 piece or 1 piece rear main seal. If it will need to be bored .030, .040, .060 inch over.

If you only have the interest in having a powerful cheap street motor, you can still do this with quality machine work, cast crank, stock rods and regular cheepie cast pistons. The strength will be about that of a stock motor but the power will certainly rival many of the 350 GM crate motors. A motor like this if just installed with quality stock heads, street cam, and not abused constantly will last as long as a stock motor.

I recommend that once you choose/purchase your main rotating components that you engage your favorite machine shop to balance the assembly, get your rings and bearings for you, do the block machine work and help you with your valve train geometry stuff. This promotes a good relationship with your machinist/builder etc. You wouldn't bring eggs to a restraunt and ask them to make you a cheaper omlete. If you buy too much the machinist will likely rape you on the labor and remaining parts, but they are used to people bringing thier own crank, rods, pistons, block, and heads. This is the best way I know how. If you go to a machinist and he begins badmouthing your parts choice find another machinist immediately. Also most machinists wont stand behind the failures of parts you didnt purchase from them. You may save a little in the beginning but its on you if it breaks.

 

Or you could do what I am considering. Wheeler Motorsports offers a assemblied, fully balanced 383 shortblock with forged pistons for $1399.

Can't beat the price after you add up all the machine work and materials.

 

Do you have a link for Wheeler?

 

http://www.wheelermotorsports.com/


Their site is currently under construction so they don't have the prices up on all of them. Email them and John will tell you anything you need to know. Really nice people.

 

Just got the call from the machine shop. My block needs to be bored. Regardless of whether or not I stroke it I need to get pistons and deliver them to the machine shop before he will bore the cylinders. what should I get? More specifically what should I look for on ebay?

 

Be sure to have the bores TQ plate honed when he sets up the piston skirt clearance. Also be sure to have the clearances setup for N2O if you plan to spray it.

If it were my project I would also have it sqaure decked down to 9.005".

 

more to the piont. do i need pistons that are for building a stroker or can i just use a set of 350 +.030 pistons?

 

LOL

Yeah they have to be specific pistons. They have to be designed for both your stroke, rod length, and over bore

 

Whew!! Thanks. I almost purchased a huge mistake!

 

yes they need to be the exact pistons that are being used please reread that larger post I made about what needs to be considered. Such as bore oversize required by wear on your block (did the machinist say .030 would be ok?), rod length to be used, and stroke. If you are building a 383 then why would you get 350 pistons?

 

I wasn't thinking. thought that a 400 crank into 350 made a 377 and a .030 overbore made a 383.

 

I thought all you needed was a 400 crank...with no overbore?

 

I'm not an expert in this but I think the cheapest way is to offset grind your crank 0.080" and get some aftermarket pistons withe a 0.030" overbore while staying with your 5.7" rods. That'll yield 363 c.i. or 6.0L. I'm not sure about reliability issues with the offset grinding, though.

 

it changes where the oil journals sit under the bearing

 

350 block + .030 overbore + 3.75" stroke crank = 383


If you spray it use forged. I've sprayed hyper / cast pistoned motors without problems...but then again I'm pretty **** when it comes to the mix / timing / and clearances...and there is always that nagging doubt in the back of your mind...


I just called a buddy of mine who shopped around and put together a pretty healthy 383 last Winter...so prices may differ a bit...

'89 F-Body 350 block $200 from machine shop ( they had it ) all machine work done...( new cam bearings etc )

Eagle 383 crank ( externally balanced ) $200

Set of prepped stock type rods from machine shop (5.7") w/ ARP bolts, checkec and spec'd $100

Pistons were $300 or so from www.dirtrackthunder. com forged TRW / Speed Pro


HE had heads / cam / induction already.

The machine shop balanced the rods / pistons / crank as an assembly ( including the flywheel, clutch, balancer etc ) clearanced the block, installed rings ( parts included ) on the pistons and the pistons on the rods, and when he picked it up they included the main bearings. Price was $300

So what is that like $1100...

It's got about 20k miles on it so far with no issues...and ALOT Of dragstrip runs.

 

thanks cbg, that's right what i was looking for. that link doesn't work though.

 

Hmmm...
I'm building a simular setup using HSR.
I've had 3 people allready tell me that the eagle cast steel crank won't take over 6k rpms even though perfectly balanced.
I really wan't to go to 6200rpms atleast. Thats what i built everything else for. Now i'm told my crank won't take it, that it will spin the bearings. The crack becomes unstable at ovet 6k, so i'm told. Is this true or did these guys just have bad luck????

 

Crankshaft longevity isn't so much linked to rpm as it is to detonation. If you can spin it that high without detonation then it should be fine, but if you ever rattle it things may go boom.

Plenty of people spin cast steel cranks this high with no problem, but they are conservative with the tune up and closely monitor AF ratios and EGTs.

 

Well, I got some speedpro/TRW pistons off of ebay. 10 1/2:1 w/ my heads, uses a 5.7 rod. I am still debating the cast vs. forged crank thing. How does every one feel about the powdered metal rods?

 

PM rods have a good rep. They are stronger stock than the coveted "pink" rods of yore. The only problem is that they cannot be rebuilt because of the cracked cap design. I believe that they are acceptable up to about 400HP. After that you probably want to start thinking about aftermarket forgings. If you plan a blower or nitrous use the aftermarket rods up front.

A crank's biggest enemy is detonation. Cast cranks can live a lot longer than they should if you never rattle the motor. Personally, I'd go with a forged crank for piece of mind alone on anything resembling a track car. What I said about the N20 and blower goes double for the crank.

 

i agree. you can't beat their price and they have a solid reputation for quality.

 

Back again.....

I got a set of slightly used forged pistons and am back to hunting down a crank. Looking around on ebay and I see a guy selling forged 5140 383 cranks for 300 bucks! I think I might get one unless somebody knows why I shouldn't
Oh his ebay eser name is "crankshafts" and he has a big write up on the auction on why his cranks are just as good as the 600 dollar ones
auction # 2479530864

 

5140 cranks are the first step (price and strength wise) in aftermarket forged cranks. They are good for an entry level motor. The questions you need to ask yourself are how much power do you want to make (now and down the road)? How much N20 are you going to run? How many RPMs are you going to turn?

If the answers are 400-500, the 100 shot you've got now, and less than 6,000 then you should be fien with a 5140. If you're lookign for more I'd seriously consider stepping up to a 4130 or 4340 forging. That extra $150 buys a lot of durability and piece of mind.

 

5140 is very strong, strong as the 4130, 4340 but there is a weight penalty, just like most things you cant get something for nothing, the 5140 is much heavier.. If you really want entry level there is "cast steel". I do not recommend this for fast wrapping short stroke motors with a heavy balancer or with any kind of blower, the crank snouts snap off. They ase sold by , Elgin, Eagle, and Scat. Called "9000 series", "80-60-08", or just "cast steel". They are the steel alloy but without the pressure forging that compresses a large amount of metal into a smaller form that helps make it denser and stronger. They are stronger than stock cast iron cranks, but far from forged steel.

 

It is unfair to say that the only advantage that a 4130 or 4340 crank has over a 5140 crank is weight. There are all kinds of stength, so even though the three alloys may share similar shear stength, they may vary greatly in areas like fatique strength, working life, or deformation characteristics.

The bottom line is that they are all unique alloys, each has it's own unique physical properties. If they were all the same there'd be no point in designating them as different. The numbers actually tell you the alloying elements in the steel. 5140 is a hard, heavy steel. It's major drawback is that it is brittle and has poor mallability. 5140 is strong, but it tends to fail catastrophically due to the brittle nature of the material. 4130 and to a greater extent 4340 are strong, light, and more malleable than 5140. 4130 and 4340 are much more closely related than either alloy is to 5140, because they are both 4xxx steels, whereas 5140 is a 5xxx. The first number denotes the steel's series, and determines the majority of the properties of the alloy. The next three numbers are more like fine tuning for specific characteristics inside a series. Varying amounts of chromium, molybdenum, manganeese, nickle, and other metals comprise these alloys, and even a 1% variation in the composition of the steel can have a dramatic effect on the physical properties observed in the finished alloy.

The benefit of 5140 cranks is that they offer a bridge between the cast cranks and the more expensive 4xxx series cranks. 5140 cranks are tough, and cheap, and that's a good combination for a lot of motors. Again, it all comes down to what you are tryign to do ultimately.

 

Wow! Now I'm more confused. How much of a weight penalty are we talking? That effects horsepower and how fast the motor revs right? I'm Building a street car. 383-700r4 w/2800 stall. LPE 219 cam-AFRs 3.42 rear. am using SLP/Edelbrock induction but will very likely go with Holley stealth ram when money allows. have n-o2 wet kit, have jets for 75 to 175 hp. This car is my weekend ride, and I will race it 4 or 5 times a year. I live around the corner from Island Dragway. I will also probably end up with a supercharger, at that point I will probably stop using the nitrous. Except for showing off and street racing. I was hoping I would be good with a 5140 crank and rods. This crank is supposed to be good for 800 hp and 8,000 rpm. What do you think?

 

In a street car weight of the rotating assembly is a lot less important than in a drag race engine. A street car is more like an oval track car, where longevity is paramount to every last ounce of acceleration potential.

Based on your expectations I think a 4340 crank is a much safer bet. A 5140 may be good to 800HP and 8,000 RPM under ideal conditions, but what engine ever operates under ideal conditions? You need something that will allow the engine to run a bit lean as you dial it in, and forgive a bit of detonation too. This isn't a 5140 crank's forte. I would highly suggest a 4340 crank and rods coupled to good forged pistons.

Block preperation and assembly should be meticulous. Leave the platigauge for the stock or near stock rebuild guys. You should mic the crank journals in several spots, and measure the inside of the bearing saddles with the bearings installed with a snap gauge, again in several spots. File fit rings are a must, and piston to wall clearance should be carefully checked, and the pistons matched to the bores. Use a bolt stretch gauge on the rod bolts, and get rods with capsrews as opposed to bolts and nuts. Use quality fasteners throughout. Head studs wouldn't be a bad idea, particularly if you plan to run boost in the future. ARP makes a new set that has broached heads that allow the studs to be pulled with an allen wrench, greatly simplifying in the car head removal.

The goal is to build a motor that will live a long life given what you want it to do. You can leave the billet Lunati cranks and Oliver rods on the shelf, but good components selection and proper setup is critical to the success of this motor. You are definately outside the durability of the "cheap" stroker kits that use cast cranks, reman rods, and hypereutectic slugs.

 

I have seen cars with stock L98 cast cranks make hundreds of passes in the 12sec range.

 

Who makes the block with the 880x casting on the side as mentioned above?

 

i have spun my cast steel scat crank to 7000+ rpms for years. you dont need anything more for what you want to do.

 

Here we go again. Now, I'm not going to come out and start name calling and saying anyone is a liar, but here's the deal:

You really have to be very careful when you give people recommendations on these boards. Obviously the initiator of this thread is a relative newbie to high performance engine work (by no means is any offense intended here). Everyone should be trying to give him/her as much information as possible. Just jotting down a quick response like "oh sure that'll work" is a dangerous thing to do.

Sure plenty of people run parts that they really shouldn't. I've seen guys spin stock 460 Ford cranks to 8,000 RPM and have them live a fairly long life. They also tear down the engine after every event and mag the crank. When it ceases to pass the mag they junk it and start with a new piece.

While this kind of anecdote makes for good bench racing and, don't get me wrong, this story is totally true; it is dangerous for a newbie to try and duplicate success with this kind of formula. The reason being is that for every guy that gets away with this there's probably fifteen who break a 5140 crank or a factory forging running less RPM and less power. A newbie needs to ere on the side of strength. What fun is going racing if you break stuff often, turning your hobby into a money pit?

My point is that I'm not going to say "that flat won't work", because that isn't true. What I will say is that I certainly wouldn't recommend it, and neither would most engine builders. The stroker/boost/N2O combo mentioned could easily make 750-800 HP. I wouldn't even think about trying to make this kind of power without an afternmarket block, a forged 4340 crank and rods, and good pistons. Even given those parts the prep would be totally **** retentive.

A friend of mine runs a door car that is consistenly an 8.90 car in the 1/4 mile on alcohol. The engine was a 409 small block (400 based) that used a stock block and a 4340 rotating assembly with JE pistons. This past year the block cracked in 4 seperate places, filling the cylinders with water. He's lucky the motor didn't hydrolock and break the crank or bend some rods. He was just pushing too much power out of a stock component, and it caught up with him. Everyone pays the piper eventually.

 

he said he wanted a cheap no frills street short block 383 and was looking for advice from people who have done it before, yes the 4340 is a much better crank than my cast steel scat crank, but it works fine for me and should work fine for him if hes on a limited budget like i was

 

ok i see now where he wrote that he has an N2O kit and eventually wants to go with a blower, if that is your intention build the stoutest short block you can

 

84 I have to commend you. A lot of people on these boards would have allowed this thread to degrade into a name calling ego contest. I hate it when that happens, because it doesn't in any way shape or form help the person who started the thread, who is just trying to get information. I apreciate it, and I'm sure all those on this thread do too.

Sorry to get off topic, but I'm trying to stop the namecalling and BS that seems to go on all too often on thirdgen. Sort of my own personal crusade. This is one of the best sites around, but we all need to work to keep it that way.

 

WOW ! Talk about dusting off an old nut!

I am finally nearing completion. here's where I'm at. Late model block at .030 over, forged crank, forged H beam rods and forged speed pro pistons. AFR heads, Holley stealth ram, LPE 219 cam and Slp headers. Compression will be around 10:1

All this goes in front of a700R4 with a 2800 stall and a 3.27:1 BW 9-bolt

Now for a couple of new Q's:

1. What kind of H.P. can I expect?

2. quarter mile times?

3. what injectors should I get?

I am probably less than a month away from putting it in the car, I figured rather than starting a bunch of new threads I would just come back to the experts (that's you guys)

Thanks so much, this has really been a learning experience.

- Mike

 

24lb SVO should be fine for the combo given running the 219 cam.

Times and power numbers are all based upon your personal level of competancy in putting things together and then getting it dialed in.

If you get things right you will rewarded nicely. If you cant get **** in line then you are gonna be very disappointed.

Many folk have thrown money at combos and got it right and many folk have failed.

So why dont you just let us know when you get it dialed and actually have some numbers to post, then you will get meaningfull opinion, until then it is just mental masturbation.

 

JEEZ ! Don't you guys ever sleep? Thanks for the fast reply LOL! I have a chip burner and a laptop so I'm sure I will tune it right eventually-May take a little while though. I guess I am just impatient and a little over eager. Actually I'm kinda worried that I should have gone with more cam. Any opinions?