They finally got here. So I had to rush out and buy a camera to take some pics. They look like they are water and oil cooled.
The outlet for the compressor side looks a bit small. They are .63 X .60 turbos and they look like new. I think I got a killer deal on them. Can't wait to get started on this. I have this weekend off so I'm gonna start making the headers for them. The pics might be a bit big. I didn't have time to shrink them. Been running my *** of since 8:30 am and I have a 12 hr shift for the next 2 nights. Will try and shrink them soon, unless no one minds. That camera takes nice pics I think. Nevermind. I shrunk 'em easy enough.

Brad...

 

Whats your plan on the headers ? whered you get those, look like rebuilt SVO ones, if you want IM me i've got some ideas for the headers on mine, and plan on using the same turbos initially, are you keeping the a/c ?

 

I should have mine sometime early next week. THe bad thing is now I am low on money, so this will have to wait until next sping.

 

Kick ***!! Looking good! Now get em mounted.

 

I don't have AC. My car had a V6 in it. I took that out. I was thinking of doing the log style header. Seems easier. I have a mig welder so I won't be going stainless. Are those turbos I have oil and water cooled? There's 4 holes in them so to me I think it's both. I was also thinking of using a heavy industrial hose to run to my carb bonnet instead of fabing/bending more tubing which I'll probably be using conduit or exhaust pipe if I can get some. Looks like I'm gonna have to buy or rent a bender also and buy some other tools Also need to get some header weld flanges, anyone know a good place to get those? Also need plumbing for the water and oil lines. I'm gonna call TurboTech and see if they have the flange that bolts to the head for the headers. Not quite sure what I'm gonna do for the bonnet yet either.

Brad...

 

Yepper, oil and water cooled. A lot of guys don't even bother running water through them. Heck, you don't even need to plug the holes. One of these days I really need to get my turbos put back together so I can start this...

 

They're prettier then mine:


But I'm betting that I paid less then 1/3 of what you did for them and they cleaned up fine:

(I don't have pictures of them after I reassembled them all cleaned up)

 

If you avoid what a lot of people are trying (the outlet from the header/manifold at the front) it’s pretty easy to keep the AC there's plenty of room. My setup doesn’t have AC, but there is plenty of room for it (I actually checked to see if I could reinstall my AC box with my headers installed last night and I swear there is more room then there was with the stock manifolds).

I’m missing something… just get some higher grade wire then the stainless that you’re welding. I’ve gotten away with using the ER07S6 (mild steel) for welding oem stainless exhaust tube like what is used on the 4th gens (usually 40_ stainless). Some of the stuff used for OEM and aftermarket stainless headers… is 304 which welds great with some 308 or 309 wire (any welding supply will have it for about $8/lb). Actually, since I started messing with stainless I’ve been using the stainless wire for everything, it works fine. There are also higher grades available for higher grades of stainless (I probably end up saving money because mild steel wire start ‘going bad’ (surface rust) before I use up a spool).

 

Do I need 100% Argon for stainless? I have a 75/25 argon CO2 mix right now. I could easily go pick up a bottle of 100%. Where would I get stainless pipe at? I'm going to Home Depot today and will see what they got. Gonna look at a bender and start getting things ready to go. How expensive is stainless pipe for exhaust and headers? What size pipe do I need for the headers? I guess I could just measure mine, duh.... Those sure did clean up nice. Mine are painted and will look like **** after a while I'm sure. Just called Turbo Tech. They have everything I need. All the weld flanges tubing and everything. They rock. But I won't be getting anything till Monday. I wanted to get started on this NOW! I guess I could tear off my exhaust and get that part ready. This is gonna be so cool.

Brad...

 

Argon is the preferred gas, but it’s not necessary unless you need certified, nuclear vessel type welds. I’ve been using the same C25 that I used for mild steel and it comes out fine. So far I’m not eve getting the buggering that you usually get on the inside of stainless tube when you weld it without back gassing it, but if I do I’ll just rig something with the C25.

Donno, I know there are a couple of places online (Burns Stainless), and there is also a shop not far from my house that makes stainless headers, but I haven’t priced any of that yet. I’m going seriously low buck. I’m cutting up and modifying a set of stainless headers that I bought on ebay for $25 (I think they ended up like $40 shipped, I’ll have to check), and so far all the tubing that I’ve used came from my “big pile o’ exhaust” (assorted stock exhausts, mostly cat backs and y-pipes from assorted cars that got aftermarket exhausts. Most of what was built in the last 10 years has stainless on it, most of my pile is 4th gen f-body and a couple of stainless mustang h-pipes. The f-body stuff is all mandrel bent, in places I might not be, but it’s close enough that it’s hard to tell, and fairly nice).

I haven’t decided on the down pipes. I’ve got some 3” aluminized and at least one matching j-bend sitting in the garage, I’ll probably use that unless I decide that I can get enough pipe out of the 2.75” intermediate pipe I’ve got sitting in my pile. It would be kinda nice if I could go stainless all the way (I’ve got a 3” intermediate and over the axle pipe from an SLP catback on the car and a homemade muffler/tailpipes because I didn’t like the SLP setup back there… Hum, I just remembered that I’ve got 2 stainless SLP tailpipes somewhere…)

So far I’m happy, just some of the nastiest oven cleaner and then wheel cleaner (don’t mix the 2, ones a base the other is an acid) that I could find an a good going after with a stiff brush. I got them really grungy fitting things up but they look the same after wiping them down with some Windex.

I found a guy that was selling laser cut T3 flanges for $20 a pair (I think it ended up $23 shipped), I figured I’d save myself the time of cutting some out. Although they looked pretty good when I got them, they didn’t match up the turbine inlets as nicely as I wanted (parts of the opening were too big). Put them up on ebay (sitting on the turbine housings so that the buyer could see how they fit and sold them for $37+shipping. Cut some out of ½” scrap that I had I the basement (a drill press and jig saw is not the fast way of doing this, but they came out nice after probably 2 hours…)

I tore off my exhaust last night

 

all you guys going turbo, its a beautiful thing

 

Good thing I can use stainless wire with the gas I already got. This project just keeps getting cheaper and easier all the time. Thanks 83 Crossfire TA for the welding info. I'm gonna put my E-bay Holley on today to see if it's any good and buy a tuning book for it if I can find one then I'm gonna rip off the exhaust. Any know how much boost I can run through that carb before I need rubber floats? Also will the Comp XE268H cam work ok with turbos? Thanks.

Brad...

 

fly89gta- Horsepower and Torque are a beutiful thing, turbos are just one way of experiencing the glory... (I should start a church, you think that we can get Monty to agree to be one of our patron saints?)

bhaas- I wouldn't trust hollow floats at any level of boost. They'd have me wondering every time the car did something funky. Good luck with the Holley. There are plenty of people that are running blow through setups successfully, but I wouldn't do it for a car that's going to see more then drag use. The problem is that carbs meter gas using velocity. The air velocity causes a pressure drop across the venture (booster) which sucks the appropriate amount of fuel in. The problem with boost is that past a point it does not increase the velocity of the airflow, but it does increase the density of the air flow and the venturi’s have no way of knowing (if anything, if you don’t boost reference the fuel bowls you’ll actually end up with less of a pressure differential so you’d get less fuel under boost). You’re stuck with either
- tuning it for a correct idle and midrange which will go lean under boost (sucks for anything but a show car)
- tuning for the more dense air under boost and it will be rich at idle and part throttle (works for a drag car, but kinda sucks to tool around in, not always possible to get the carb rich enough)
- using some sort of auxiliary fueling to richen the mixture under boost (an injector triggered by pressure) (hard to do right without spending the money for an injection system, you could just trigger it to open as say 3psi, but then you’ll get a rich bog and possibly slightly lean at your torque peak)

 

83 Crossfire TA, that's not really what I wanted to hear. Also, I put on that carb I got off of ebay and it leaks from every gasket on it. Luckily it didn't catch everything on fire. I guess I spoke to soon about this getting cheaper and easier So Do I want to spend a forune on an FI setup or risk it with a carb? Decisions, decisions. Although the FI would definately have the cool factor going on. And what would be a good FI FMU setup at a reasonable cost, if there is such a thing. The guy I bought the carb from is gonna refund my money. That is cool. An honest E-Bay'er.

Brad...

 

If there was a good, cheap way to do fuel management I would have built mine last winter (first I decided to hold off till I figured out what I was going to do there, then I got in a car accedent... finally I decided to say 'screw it all' and start slapping the thing together and hope something comes a long or I'll build something).

What is on your car now? Unless you've got $$$ to spend I say you make it work as best as you can with what you've got. If that's a carb, then so be it. When you find that you can't get enough fuel then work with what you can get easiest, extra injectors, propane injection.... Use a hobbs switch to turn it on when you're under boost and tune it so it's as smooth as possible. Rebuilding a carb and setting up some kind of boost enrichment will be much cheaper then converting to any kind of injection.

My car is an '87 TPI (with a MAF). Honestly, I’m hoping for 5-600hp in it’s initial iteration (race gas…), and yes, this thing is being built with planned 'upgrade path.' This is pretty much just a proof of consept and then probably being swapped into something more pedestrian, like my truck. The problems here are:
- what do you do with the maf? As soon as you start seeing boost you’ll peg what it is able to read and with twins you’re pretty much forced to blow through it
- this is way out of the range that the stock injectors could feed with an FMU, to be comfortable, you’d need to run 36# injectors with an fmu or 50’s or so without
- whether you get rid of the maf or not, I haven’t seen any 3rd gen’s running a gm ECM with bigger then 30’s running very well, and very few with 36’s running at all.

What will probably end up happening? Well, I’ll probably eventually pony up and install an aftermarket ECM. In the mean time, I may rig something with an fmu and possibly an old NOS spray bar to do some auxiliary fueling.

In a nutshell, I wish I had a better answer but your choices appear to be to rig something or spend the $$$ and do it right…

 

I just had 2 other thoughts (actually, I had them last night but, well, the condensate drain in my AC plugged and I woke up to a flooded basement killing my day).
- everyone that I know of that has had big problems tuning a blow through carb used a small bonnet that looked like it might blow over the top of the carb or even swirl. Everyone using a bigger bonnet/housing which tended to blow straight down on the carb has been able to acheave a workable tune much easier/faster
- You might want to think about selling your holley and getting a demon. There is one that supposedly was designed for this type of application. Check out the last 2 issues of either car craft or hot rod, they did 2 articles on using a blow through supercharger with a carb, last month on a 4.3L 6 and the month before on a v8 with good results with their demon.

 

Brad,

Sweet!!!!! I think if you did use the water to cool the turbos down would be worth your time! Cooler means more dense air! And when you compress air, it gets really hot, especially exhaust gases. Also, do you have any idea's for an intercooler? If not, you could always go put a carol cold water injection unit on that thing? I'll send you the link. I work all week, and the wife and i are going to Whistler Thrusday AM till sunday night. I'll try and callyou before i take off! I"m not sure, but the cold water injection uint on my paxton is pretty simple to make and would be cheap to do, however, the carol system is 300$ but works much better.

Later
C

 

I have all those issues right here. But I won't be putting mine in a box like that. It makes a difference on how the carb is setup (from what I've read) you have more leaks if you don't use a box. Isn't there a place that sells carbs already setup for blowthru? I was looking at the Holley Pro Series carb in Summit but that is $581. I think the Demon was cheaper. The guy I bought my Holley from on E-bay is refunding my money so I guess that'll go to the new carb. Also I will be getting my weld flanges and whatever else I can get from TurboTech today, but unfortunately I have to work tonight and tomorrow and didn't get anything done this weekend. Sorry to hear about your air conditioner. I'm sure that had to suck. I wish I had an air conditioner. But summer is almost gone here finally. Too hot.

Brad...

 

I got my header weld flanges and 8 bends. Costed me $192 OUCH!!! I can see this is gonna get wayyyyy out of hand cost wise as usuall. I still have to buy a new carb. Another $600. I'm beginning to wonder if I should have just bought a Vortech Supercharger, cause it looks like I'm gonna get up to the $3000 real fast. Oh well.

Brad...

 

I would love to make / fabricate a turbo setup but unfortunatelly I have no clue where to begin. I have a mig welder, and can get plenty of pipe. but what size? what bends? where to get a decent intercooler? what sort of fuel injection / blow through carb equipment will I need?
I think these are all questions we would all like answers to. How about that company, Turbo tech? They carry items? I would like their phone number, or any other info possible. Im about to bite the bullet and get another roots blower, but would love a twin turbo setup...

 

Here is their website. http://www.turbotechnologyinc.com/ The number to call is at the top. They can get aything you need. They're pretty helpfull there. Luckily I live about 2 miles from them. I've never done this either. I'm just gonna wing it. With a torch, chopsaw and welder anything is possible.

Brad...

 

Water cooled turbos will do NOTHING for keeping the air charge cooler. They were originally designed when turbos used older style bearings that were not able to tolerate higher heat. As bearing materials got better they got rid of the cooling passages when they were found to be superfluous. The T3’s that we’re talking about use the newer bearings, but also have water cooling passages. They will work either way, but the only advantage to running water through the passages is that you will not have to be as careful about waiting for things to cool down before you shut down to prevent coking the oil in the bearings (or just run a good synthetic and unless you’ve been on the road course for a half hour at WOT you won’t be capable of doing it)

Yes, cooler air = more dense air, but you can always just pump the same air at a greater volume using more pressure and make the same power. What the cooler air does for you is that it allows you more ‘grace’ before the intake charge heat causes detonation. Like I said before, HP depends on the mass of air that you can pump into the engine and mix with the right amount of fuel, nothing else.

 

I would argue that the reasons to do it yourself are:
- you are a ‘scrounger’ and can find the parts for cheaper
- you think that you can do it better then what is available out there (not that hard for f-bodies and turbos)
- you want it done your way.

All 3 of those explain why I’m doing what I’m doing. When I’m done I’ll post pics and some accounting, but for right now, I’ve got $537 in my project, including the cost of the car, 2 turbos, a gasket set, some stray hardware… (Included in that is selling of $1000 worth of parts that came with the car, so not counting that I’d be $1K deeper, and so far I haven’t used any freak “I had this sitting around” parts).

OTOH, for the time and effort spent scrounging the right stuff I’d charge someone a bit, I’d guess that for the end project I’d charge between $3 and 6K installed, maybe more (I’ll have a better idea when I know how many hours I spend on it, so far I haven’t spent more then an hour a night working on the car so…), and that price could vary greatly depending on what was done for engine management/boost fuel enrichment. This would also depend greatly on what parts are available.

I’ve said this before, there is a reason why good turbo kits don’t exist for 3rd gens. You could EASILY charge the same amount for a Honda and would be half the work and half or less for materials, and I’d bet that that amount is more then enough to scare away most if not all 3rd gen owners. I believe that this stuff might end up showing up if 3rd gens start attracting more people that are willing to spend $$$ on them.

 

I spent more than that for the turbos. I got $652 in the turbos and $192 for flanges and U bends. I still need a carb. Will probably be buying a custom carb made for blowthru, add about another $600 for that. I need a hat $169 for that. Then I need a decent fuel system, not sure what that's gonna cost yet. And maybe a new motor after I blow this one up

Brad...

 

Brad,

Get a hobbs switch. I'm not sure if you rember what I did with my supercharger? I was running lean because the fuel system was not enought for the demands of the supercharged engine. I put a hobbs switch on my vacume system, ran the ground to a vortech aux. fuel pump, put a bypass with a check valve on the aux. fuel pump. What this does is it allowed my to keep the stock fuel system and all i did was insert the inline aux fuel pump and a hobbs switch. The reason for the check valve and hobbs switch is that under non boost conditions, the fuel goes around the fuel pump via bypass fuel line and check valve. When I am in boost mode, the hobbs switch is activated by .-5 boost or -1/2lb of boost, so it turns on the aux. fuel pump when i come into the boost. I think you can get hobbs switches to ground at different voltages/psi. not sure, anyway, it's a slick way to get around putting a new fuel system in! It cost me a total of 100 bucks, 89 for the fuel pump, and maybe 20 bucks for the switch and plumbing. Give me a call next week and I'll show you pic's of the fuel pump. I can't post them, but maybe brad can do that if anyone here is interested.

 

I was thinking of doing that but I need a boost referenced pressure regulator cause I'm using a carb. Don't want to put more PSI into the carb all at once and blow seals. It has to be consistent with the amount of boost. I wish it was that easy. I like your setup. Nice and clean and simple. Cheap too.

Brad...

 

Brad,

All you need to do is put a hobbs switch on, plug it into a vacume source, and then ground it to a 30 amp relay which runs to the fuel pump. SIMPLE! I will be home sunday night and i'm off tuesday, let's do coffee!

 

I still need a boost referencd fuel pressure regulator. I can't just blast a lot of PSI when I don't need it. The hobb switch just turns on a fuel pump. I can tell this fuel system is gonna be a nightmare I think. Coffee sounds good. I have Tuesday off. I work all this weekend.

Brad...

 

Brad,

Not sure where you need the fuel psi, but my system only turns on when you are under boost. If you are not in the boost, the hobbs switch does not trun on the aux fuel pump and the fuel is routed around the aux. fuel pump. When you are in boost, the fuel pump turns on and gives you additional fuel psi. you could try an adjustible FMU which increase the fuel psi via the return line in relation to boost. I have a basic vortech fmu with plates to change the psi increase. I would go for the super fmu from vortech, it allows you to change the ratio on demand

 

That makes absolutely no sense unless you’re leaving something out or running a carburetor with no regulator and/or return line.

Yea, a second pump turning on will give you more capacity (if it’s in parallel like you described, usually volume, not pressure), but if you’ve got a regulator it will just limit you to whatever the regulator was set at anyway. The only way that that will give you more fuel was if you were not pumping enough to start with (fixing a problem, not adding enrichment under boost).

 

Craiger has a TPI setup and a fuel pump inline that comes on under boost. It seems to work. I on the other hand am totaly lost when it comes to my fuel system. I'll be using a carb set up for boost, and I've read that under boost it can push the fuel back into the pump. I need to find a way to get more fuel or psi or whatever to the carb so it doesn't go lean. Oh well. I'm gonna go tear off my exhaust and will worry about that when the time comes.

Brad...

 

But that still doesn't make sense.

The stock Fuel Pressure Regulator (FPR) is vacuum/boost refrenced.

If it's set to something normal you probably see somehing like 30psi at idle and 43 at WOT (NA) or 43+whatever your boost is.

If you add another fuel pump you'll see see somehing like 30psi at idle and 43 at WOT (NA) or 43+whatever your boost is (yes, I just typed exactly the same thing). There is absolutely no reason that the fuel pressure would go up any higher unless your fuel delivery greatly excedes your fuel needs at WOT. I can't imagine something like that happening unless you were running something like a 255 in tank and an aeromotive or SX in parallel on a 300hp engine.

If you want greater fuel delivery you've got to do something else to use the additional fuel that you're pumping, like run a FMU or something that would boost your fuel pressure at a greater ratio then it would go up otherwise.

 

Ah, yes, it does make sence since the stock fuel pump can not support the fuel demands of the new engine with the supercharger. When under boost conditions, the car was running out of fuel.The car ran flat on its face around 3500rpm's, then i put the FMU in. I found the FMU was only helping out a little. Ran up to 4000rmpsafter the fmu. I then Put the aux. fuel pump in and IT gave the car what it was a needing. So actually, there is good reason to run the aux. fuel pump! Bacisally, the stock fuel pump was way too under powered for the needs of my set up when in boost. The fmu worked only a little bit compared to the fuel pump. When I'm running NA, it works fine and never turns on, and only comes on when needed.

 

Killer Project Brad

Here are some pics from my brothers TT331 68 Fastback project


Prototype RCI Fuel Tank. Twenty two gallons, aluminum construction,21.5" wide, 29.5" long,8" deep sump with 2 8-AN fittings, 8-AN vent,(need to buy roller valve, Summit - $19.00), fuel sender, (GM or FORD), flush fill, and foam filled.

A few more...





He wrote an excel program for turbo sizing, LMK if you are interested in looking at it. Keep up the good work !

Don

 

man those turbos are beautiful:hail: :hail: :hail: :hail:

 

There all good indeed

I know most of you are in awe of the pics I posted.....

Personally I dont think there is but a few here on this board that will be able to take my brother's car on in a 1/4 mile race.

Just the sight of that intercooler should make most power adders tremble.

Don

 

NICE AVITAR! GIRLS GONE WILD! I hope that they dont replace it with this one (he he my version of it) see below