Guido

http://www.cartech.net/projects.htm

CrazyHawaiian

Wow cool! And with Banks doing their R&D as well, we might see some turbo kits for 3rd gens very soon here. Definately good news for those of us that arent good at making our own headers. I know for me I've decided to wait untill there are a few choices. I'm gonna have a L98 built for nitrous in the meantime.

87Z-ya

iTrader: (1)

Should I call them and ask them about that?

blowen90ta

searched e-bay for gta and came up with a turbo kit anyone interisted might want to look it up.there was a pic of the turbo on a ta with tpi
pete

Guido

There is already a post in this forum about that item.

Call em 87-Z.

B4Ctom1

this guy Nickg124@aol.com has a banks twin kit for sale, email him.

Kingtal0n

testing dont mind me:

'87FAKE-IROC-Z

Cool.
Its nice to see these doors finally openning up for the thirdgen.

IROCFAST

iTrader: (3)

If someone would go ahead and develop a bolt on system for SBC's in general, they would make tons of money...why did banks quit making his?

B4Ctom1

If someone would just make the manifolds, THE MANIFOLDS! everthing else would be easily do-able at home for carbed or EFI guys, stock 305 or 434 racer. We have been without a turbo kit for too long to waffle over whether it needs to be for this kind of thirdgen or that kind, which I feel may happen during research. Also, asking a manufacturer to make multiple kits is out of the question, they just wont do it. Nobody will even do it for the blower kits for third gens, remember how they dropped the 87 and older tpi kits? remember how banks dropped the carbed kits? Its all about the manifolds. Any guy here who can install his own blower kit with basic hand tools might possibly be able to build his /her own kit if only supplied with the manifolds.

Dewey316

or at least some manifolds and possible some piping for the exaust to get from the turbos to somewhere in the rear of the car. you avg. person with "hand tools" probably can't fab exaust for tubos.

B4Ctom1

I thought about that, but I wont even bother them with that, I would just tow my car to an exaust shop and say "get to work dudes". For others, they might just do it at home themselves. If you think my comment on the exhaust is harsh then consider then, if it is a matter of money, then get a blower because this still would be the more expensive way to get to point X or X amount of HP, considering the price of blowers and kits available. I am just interested in making sure this becaome a reality. You are right in the fact that having a flange of some sort for the exhaust dude to deal with would be important.

Dewey316

i completely agree with you, if they made just a pair of manifolds would make me happy.

i was just thinking for joe blow with hand tools, the exaust routing (and intake routing for that matter) would probably too much for him.

B4Ctom1

Each man must be left to his own devices. the hardest to overcome is the manifolds. If the manufacturer wants to make an 85-92 TPI kit and still offer the manifolds separately to those who wish to build from scratch (almost) then that would work too. It seems no matter what you do alot of people can not plunk down $3K for a blower kit let alone $5-7K for a turbo kit. they will always ask if they can buy it in pieces. I ve seen people ask if they can buy nitrous systems in pieces

Dewey316

yeah, i am not looking forward to the manifolds....

but i am still a ways away from that i still have alot left to get my ready to handle the power. i know i will keep you turbo guys busy with questions when i get to the point of actualy building the manifolds, and getting the turbo motor up and running.

B4Ctom1

Thats why I posted the email address of a guy that is desperate to sell his.

JGSturbo

Hello, I was told by Tom W that there was alot of people shopping for 3rd gen turbo manifolds...
And I build lots of turbo manifolds (mainly imports right now )
We had a good talk about different designs,
I would like to build a simple 4 into 1, but I lack an F-body to postion the turbocharger on (I'm in Coos Bay, OR hint, hint ).

The other option for those of you who don't have tons of money is to build an unfinished log header kit (ULHK). This is a log style manifold that doesn't have the turbo flange welded on the log yet. I understand this isn't the worlds best header, but we have several 2.0L 4 cylinder imports making 500+WHP on a log. The only real difference is thermodynamically. The log generates more heat do to the more pulses per runner, but more heat does great things for turbo response (or boost threshold). We have seen as much as 500RPM boost threshold deceases across the board from swapping a 4 into 1 for a log manifold. Also this adds room to use a bigger turbo than you normally would (decreasing the heat).
Did I mention it's cheap? a set of ULHKs would retail for around $400. The 4 into 1 would retail for around $900 (depending on demand).
Fell free to check out my website www.jgstools.com/turbo and e-mail me if you think this is at all a good idea.

Dewey316

Hint i am in portland....

shoot me an e-mail or a PM.

B4Ctom1

I feel kinda bad for making fun of log type manifolds, now that you point out the obvious heat thing. People have been telling me for years heat makes turbos perform awsome. I would be interested to see what a ULHK with a chevy head exhaust pattern would look like installed on a 3 gen. you would probably drive the price of turbo coupe TO3's through the roof. and you could offer them with the T3 or T4 flange pattern, suddenly the options are endless?

Dewey316

JGS,

i just checked out your website,

my friend and i are working on a 510 turbo project

defen. e-mail me

JGSturbo

I can offer them with ANY turbo pattern.

On a 305, the supercoupe T3 could work pretty good...
It could provide over 500HP with easy now that I think about that, thats alot of a 305.

For the 350 cars, I would go with an S-trim T04Bs which can make 720+HP or V-trims that can make 800-1000HP for $1100 a set (when you purchase a set of ULHKs). Life is cool when you think in TWINs
Hmmm...
Lets make a list...
Turbos 1100
ULHKs 400
Wastegates 450
intercooler 450
Plumbing - 400
Bypass valve - 200
$3000 so far
Now thats a 350 system,for the 305 you could drop the wastegates (seeing as how the T3s come internally gated).

Fuel systems (for the 3rdgens) are kind of a myth to me, somebody want to list some options?

B4Ctom1

Those prices are very very nice. how about a good breathing 406 in the 750 hp range? As for a fuel system I would recommend the pre made inline system sold by Vortech for the auxiliary in line fuel pump and the pre made inline system for the FMU from vortech. some guys would want a "super fueler" but just like a timing retard box, that should be user added not kit included. 4GF101-002 FUEL PUMP ASSEMBLY 1 $179/Summit (includes)
8F001-002 155 inline fuel pump 1
7R003-008 1/2” adel clamp 1
7R003-024 1-1/2” adel clamp 1
7P375-050 3/8” hose mender 1
7R001-004 #4 hose clamps 4
7U100-055 6” nylon tie wraps 6
5W001-011 16-14GA eyelet 1
5W001-010 16-14GA female slides 3
5W118-021 18GA 10” standard black wire 1
5W118-034 18GA 156” standard red wire 1
5W001-002 Fuse tap 1
7E010-050 #12 x 1/2” sheet metal screws 2
7E010-046 #8 x 3/4” sheet metal screw 1
7U031-018 5/16 x 6” fuel hose 1
4GF238-068 FMU (with lines) 1 $219/Summit (includes)
6Z110-114 8:1 black fuel management unit 1
4GF145-156 12” fuel line assembly 1
4GF146-166 14” fuel line assembly 1
7U030-046 5/32” x 60” vacuum line 1
7E010-046 #8 x 3/4” sheet metal screws 2
7U100-055 6” nylon tie wraps 2
7R001-004 #4 hose clamps 2

JGSturbo

An FMU would be fine for a low boost kit...
I would think bigger injectors would be nessary for 750 HP.
As for the 406, go with 2 V-trim T04Bs because there is exhaust A/R sizes. And those turbos will breath upto 900+HP (boost pressure depends on headwork, small ports will need more boost).

B4Ctom1

Bigger injectors are do-able, or a superfueler could be a kit available item for turbos above X size or HP above X amount. who know how much S.fuelers are and where you can get them? what kind of intercooler option would exist how big is that $400 unit? would two be needed?

JGSturbo

Do you mean a additional injector controller??
Quite a few companies offer affordable ones, SDS is one.
My company and another party is working on an after ecu injector signal trimmer/extender that adjusts injector pulse width in real time by a MAP sensor.

The $400 STR450 is good for about 500HP.
The $450 STR580 is good for about 600HP
I'm thinking about offering a taller one for you HP hungry people, one that would be good for 800HP.
Anything bigger, and I would recommend an Air-to-water (which we are starting to build) IC.

B4Ctom1

those are the prices for the intercoolers, I went to your site to get the info and pricing about the injector drives you offer and got a message 404 (dead link)

JGSturbo

Ya, our fuel unit is still being developed ... Programing issues.
We don't expect it to be retailable until jan. (it was just a day dream I had a couple of weeks ago, but the chip is almost programed)
Yes, those are the ICs what do you think? Some of the best deals I have ever seen

B4Ctom1

I would say you just beat procharger as having the cheapest IC's I would suggest you look at this post to see if it gives you any ideas like it does me as far as a twin turbo set up goes, lets stay with the "twin" theme? :-) https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=112206

Inwo

I always said I'd switch from carb if someone made a turbo kit that included the DFI computer and intake/injectors etc, I'm sure a lot of others would too. How about it? Turbo V8 = :rockon: :rockon: :rockon:

JGSturbo

Hmmm interesting....
The single cores I'm using provide alot more flow than those bar and plate cores, But if thats what you want I can build you the same thing for at least a little cheaper than ATI (more than likely).

How about big twin AtoW intercoolers?

Dan W

When I called last night to tell JGS about thirdgen.org and turbo manifolds for small block chevy, the guy actually let out an uncontrolled giggle or two, started complaining about the locals saying natural asperation is all you need on a small block. and proceded to keep me on the phone for two hours talking about boost, HP, manifold efficancy, etc. He is sick, just our kind of guy!

Dewey, what are you waiting for, Get on down there!

Glad to see ya respond JGS. Once you get a few manifolds installed, a simple ad in the back of Hot Rod, Car Craft or Super Chevy ought to keep you busy.

JGSturbo

Dan W , Sorry man... I know too many toms.

Me advertise? But I'm one the net's best secrets

I did get an e-mail about building a turbo system for a 1000HP
429 AC Colbra (BBC)...I think I have had my "V8" today...

B4Ctom1

I dare you to do a search of the word "turbo" here at thirdgen, you will come up with over 8000 separate threads. if the average tread had 125 posts in it that would be 1 million posts just here!!! the thirdgen has waited along time for the turbo since gale banks gave up on it back in like 85

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

JGSturbo, not to be a PITA, but I would strongly suggest that you take a good look at an SBC flange and the packaging in an f-body engine compartment. It looks like your price for the unfinished log style manifold will be $60 under that you’re charging for the 4cyl ones that you’re already selling, for something that I would strongly argue would be a more difficult to build setup (after giving it a really good look myself). I really wouldn’t be surprised if after a serious look you decided that that price really should be 50-100% more (either way, that's an impressive price).

I hope that you don’t mind if I ask a few questions:
- I just noticed something, is all your stuff 304 stainless? Flanges also?
- Roughly what percentage of your customers opt to save themselves the roughly $150 and buy the unfinished setup (since it still requires welding)? To me it seems a whicked deal, since I would strongly argue that you’re giving a hefty discount for leaving out the simplest part of the fabrication.
- Have you ever tried deforming one of those L’s or T’s that you use (to work with an oval or square port)? How about a cast one (I’m assuming that you usually use 304 stainless ones)?

JGSturbo

I have looked at many of SBCs (I see tons of different heads in Summit), I'm not scared. If I get enough interest and orders, I think I can keep the $400-$450 price. Now this is in THICK WALL mild steel (0.200 wall) with 0.500" thick flanges (no cheap stuff here). SS steel is really costly and expands too much for this type of design. A shot of ceramic coat will take care of any rusting problems and reduce engine bay heat.
You want to see a pain-in-the-ASRE manifold ?...

I won't need to form the pipes, I will just have the CNC port the thick flanges from a square to a round hole.
These parts will be tougher than nails, go ahead and run them over with a mack truck...I'm not worried.

The location of the turbo is the KEY to any turbo manifold.
I know, its a serious discount...But thats what makes it sell soo great. It really doesn't take our guys anytime at all to weld up a log, if they are setup it takes around 1.5hrs to finish a log header.
Because we make everything inhouse, thats how we have such good prices.

Lance

Dewey316

JGS...

i got you e-mail and replied, am hoping to hear from you soon.

CamaroFreak87

I don't know about you guys...but I'm getting excited...

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Sorry, I just reread your site and it says “add $39.99 for thick wall 304…”

After cutting up and modifying a few SBC headers I can honestly say that the 2 ends don’t look as hard as the middle of an SBC…

Um, yes, you will. Measure the flange dimensions and the bolt holes. You’ll find that either size weld el that you’re using will be too big to put 2 between them. The 1-1/4 (what you’re listing as a 1-5/8” on your site, which has an od of 1.660” and id of 1.380”) will overlap the bolt holes on the center 2 ports and will be even with the edges of the bolt holes on the outside ports. The 1-1/2” (which you list as 2” on your site and has a specified od of 1.900” and id of 1.610”) will cover the bolt holes. The manifolds that you’ve been making all have offset bolt holes that move them out of the way. This kind of a manifold would be cake to build for an LS1 which has a wider bolt hole spacing, but on an SBC & LT1 you don’t have it unless you’re running adaptors, especially on the inside 2 ports.

I’ve been there/done that with some 304 ones that I managed to get to deform enough to clear, but I’ve considered doing it with the steel but don’t know if they will deform or crack if you try, which is the reason for the question. I’m just curious if you’ve tried to deform them and what the plan is (I’ve got a seriously funky custom app in mind). If you had them available and welded to the exhaust port flange for $400 it wouldn’t be worth doing yourself even if you could just because of the hassle and price of parts (roughly $140 for the head side flanges, $60 (about $20-35) each for the turbo flanges, $40 or so for 8 weld els, another $10 for straight pipe, a piece of box stock and assorted other goodies/welding supplies I bet leaves you with $50-100 for the cost of beating your own head against a piece of Schedule 40 figuring out how to get nice welds on the inside joints and making the tubes fit (I’ve found that it’s easiest to cut open the log and weld all the inside joints from the inside, or make a little flange that gets welded all from the outside).

Yea, that seems to be the deal. Even most people that have the equipment to weld these things up don’t have anything that will cut ½” plate well (a hacksaw will eventually, but so will a big rock ) so it’s actually more cost effective for them to get raped on flanges from someplace else… if that’s what you did at that point you’d pretty much be left with paying your welders $20-30/hour and no profit.

JGSturbo

You do bring up some good points...
I did get all the measurements for the SBC pattern, it is real tight.
I did notice some real small diameter header bolts (anybody?)

Mild steel is easier to swag than SS, and the new Tee fittings will be very easy to swag (in a vise) considering they aren't swept tees (they are straight tees). Also if you grind the edges of the tubes at a 45 deg, or make a TIG weld with very little filler you can make an almost flat weld (just less grinding to get clearance for the bolts). When we weld a tube to the flange, we go for 100% penatration (which looks like its been welded on the inside and outside).
I have ALOT of tricks to get the job done, its just how many it takes to get the job.

With that said, I will say $450-$475.

A Question, How many inches are there in between the motor and the sheetmetal?

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Yea, just about everyone sells small head header bolts for chevy’s just because of this problem. I know that summit stocks 2 or 3 smaller sizes of head header bolt sets. I’ve also had OK luck with using allen head screws which need less space…

Hum… that brings up something else (unrelated, but maybe you know), it used to be that most suppliers had the swept T’s and in the last couple months they’ve disappeared. If you order the exactly same part # now you get straight T’s. Do you (or anyone else) know of someplace that ‘normal’ people can still buy the swept ones (Don’t answer McMaster/Carr, they show swept and send straight).

Man, one of these days I’ll upgrade from the MIG world to the TIG world. Till then I do the best with what I’ve got. The worst thing is that I’ve got a friend that bought a Lincoln Pro 180 TIG and it’s been sitting in his bedroom on a pallet for 2 years now…

I’m thinking that I might want to shut up before the price goes up more and board members start resembling a lynch mob…

That’s sorta a loaded question with f-bodies, the distance isn’t the problem, it’s the layout. Packaging in things like a mustang or a Honda is much easier because it’s more of a box, where with f-bodies it’s kinda like a flat wedge with crevices.

The engine appears to be offset to the passenger side and there is more room to the sheet metal on the driver’s side, but you’ve got that space cut into a bunch of little pieces with the steering shaft, fuel lines, brake lines, brake MC, PS pump and lines… where you can eliminate just about everything on the passenger side and not loose any substantial functionality (Well, AC, but you really can pull that, package everything and put it back, it sorta sits on top blocking access to everything else.

You also have the big lump of a strut tower…

With that caveat, there roughly 9-10” between the head and the sheet metal, and lower down about 6-7” from the head to the frame rail, and mine appears to have about 1” more space on the driver’s side.

JGSturbo

I think if you can find somebody that gets them from china and not weldbend, they would be the old swept tee style.
Me? I like the new tees, to trim them we just chuck them up in the lathe and part them to lenght.

6-7 inches sounds like enough, I would really like to use 1.5" ID pipes. They stick out about 4" (with a 1/2" flange welded to it)...
Question, are you saying that 6-7 inches is inline with the exhaust ports?

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

a metal lathe... another toy I really want. The funny thing about the guy with the TIG in the bedroom is that he's got a lathe, bandsaw and mill in the basement that I've never seen pulled out from under the covers except to show them to me once.

the 6-7" is below the level of the ports. the 9-10 is about at the ports where the strut towers are. Ahead and behind there's more but it's shallower (look around for some engine bay pictures here, you'll see what I mean). Again, just because there' s that much room, don't think 'wow, that's more then just about any other car that I've tried on,' because especially on the driver's side there's a ton of stuff running at assorted angles through that space Add to that even something as substantial as the stock manifolds are enough to almost block any space for a down pipe because there isn't really a relativly straight shot anywhere around that are. Also, everything below the ports forward of the milddle 2 ports is blocked by the engine mounts and K-member and the forward of that you've got accesories and the front suspension (remember, real steering box and related hardware, not a compact rack and pinion).

Like I've said before on this board, the problem isn't building manifolds/headers that fit, the problem is leaving enough room for the down pipes and everything else in that area without melting all sorts of useful stuff.

Dan W

Don't try to convince him that its impossible when its not.

Lets not forget that a production kit for this has been marketed with manifolds. There is a big picture of it on the front cover of Hugh McCanes Turbochargers book, again on pg 114 and 125. If you look in Corkey Bells book Maximum Boost there is a picutre of a banks setup on a BIG BLOCK in a third gen. In the same book there is another picture of the banks small block manifolds on pg vi, pg 134 shows exhaust routing on the underside of a F-Body.

Here is a picture from banks page:



And then there are examples such as Lil Qik's car. If you want examples on how to get the exhaust out the passenger side, look no further than guido. If I recall correctly there was another guy with a 305 TPI car (Maroon collored car) with a single turbo running 9's or 10's on a very factory looking install his exhaust also exited next to the back corner of the RH valve cover. The biggest space limitation back there is the factory heater box on AC cars... but lets face it, most of us who are doing this swap are ditching the AC anyway.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

I don't think that I ever said that it wasn't possible, and I don't think I ever said anything about problems on the passenger side... that's a piece of cake.

What I did do is warn him that it is not as easy as a cursory initial look makes things look, and that I've tinkered with the costs involved and that unless you can get/make all the parts at a substantial discount over the normal costs (which you're not going to get from volume in something like this), it is difficult to make at a competitive price. I considered getting into this myself, decided that I'd get the best quality and cost by hiring out parts of the job to 2 exceptional fabricators that I know, a machinist and a welder (they could make/do the work better and much faster then anyone else, making it cheaper). Even with a much smaller profit margin then most of the performance market you still ended up with a product that cost more then most 3rd genners were willing to pay, and you could reasonably make 3-4x the profit making the same parts for hondas (less then half the work and the expected total cost/what they're willing to pay is the same or higher). Honestly, I came to the conclusion that banks probably dropped their 3rd gen setup because even with prices like selling just the manifolds for $1200 they still weren’t making enough of a profit on it (if you’ve got the production capability a cast manifold is much cheaper to make then a welded one).

It sounds like JGS has the resources to do the job _much_ cheaper then 99.9% of those that considered it out there, and also a plan on how to offer a product that approaches the price that the buyer is willing to pay while putting in what he is willing... so maybe something will come of this.

As a side note, even if it doesn't, the products may eventually appear, basically because the 3rd gen f-body demographic is changing to more older people that remember the cool cars they had when they were kids, and that demographic is much more likely to just write a check to get what they want rather then debate a couple of hundred dollars in cost... That is assuming that the interest in the cars stays high as the demographic changes.

JGSturbo

Yes, I understand about the difficulties in routing the nessary piping...
http://www.harborside.com/~lhumbert/perform.html
Hows that for a tight subject, I don't even have room for a radiator fan in front of the motor
Those exhaust tubing donuts will help you get through almost any problem.

I think the ULHKs will be the best 3rd gen option...
Its really my best selling "budget" market product.
Did I mention for the 305, I have rebuilt .60 trim T3s (w/ internal wastegates) for $750 a set?

Guido

When I did my headers, I used 1 3/4" tubing. I had to square each port up. On the centers, it was a bit tough. I had to also dimple in the sides of the tubes on each tube to make clearance for sockets around the header bolts.

When we did the center tubes, I left one of them loosely tack welded into the flange. That way we could take one tube out and weld around all the seams. Do the other one the same way. And then slide them both back into the flange and weld them on the INSIDE to the flange. All inside welds. Makes it cleaner and stronger. Then also laid a bead down around each port to seal it to the gasket better.





Here is the maroon car you guys were talking about


Here is mine

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Damn, that’s sweet looking. Did he make a big recess/dent in the strut tower to make extra room? Which way did he run his crossover pipe? Are there any more pictures/details of this setup somewhere (I saw the blurb on your web page, Guido)?

89ProchargedROC

the dent was from his older setup which was a YS-trim vortech....

under the front of the motor

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

well, I'd love to see better pictures of that engine bay and more details on the car, does he have a web page (for that matter, who is 'he')?

89ProchargedROC

'he' is preston smith

preston gave pics of his setup to a friend who gave them to a buddy of mine to not show anyone

I have to respect that and not show them

I can give you any details if you'd like