Glen91l98GTA,I have the equip and need help
10-25-2001, 12:05 AM
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Glen91l98GTA,I have the equip and need help
We had talked about my formula about a month ago.Well I finaly have the hardware & software.Could you give me a hand?Will the rpm and speed limit cut offs actually work on my 87 bin?They're in tunercat w/ 87 bin loaded.What does these cardboard cookie cutter,chip makers do to thier chips?I heard delaying tc lockup until 45 mph.But what else,some of it could be a good place to start.What effect does injector flow rate have?I have some 30lb injectors that I would like to use.My engine is a 400 tpi light mods.I know it could go low 14s,high 13s after I redo eprom.But would they be too big.I pulled them because they was making my blm dip low.Can this condition be compensated for?
10-26-2001, 02:22 AM
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Car: 1987 Trans Am GTA
Engine: Miniram'd 383, 24X LS1 PCM
Transmission: TH700R4, 4200 stall
Axle/Gears: 9", 4.33:1
Well I'm not Glenn but I might be able to help a little bit. The 30lb injectors shouldn't be too big for your application. The problems you are having are likely due to running a 30lb injector when the PROM says they are still the stock 22lbers. I am running 30lb SVOs in my 355 and my BLMs are reasonable after some tweeking.... With an MAF setup there is really not that much to change to get it to run decent, IMHO - a lot more messing around is required to get it perfect....
The first thing you need to do is make sure that all of your engines vital EFI equipment is in good working order (ie O2 sensor, TPS, IAC valve and passage, injectors, etc...). If something is wrong it will keep yu chasing your tail for weeks or more... When you know that everything is good, you just need to try out a combination and see how it goes....
I would say with a 400 cube engine you should run the 30lb injectors and try setting the injector ratings to 30lb with a rail pressure of around 45psi and go from there.... If that is what you did before and it was running rich (BLMs going low), try ratcheting their rating values up to 'lean out' the injectors a bit. You really gotta try a combo and go from there.
What bin are you starting with? If you are using the stock 87 bin, I would suggest getting a copy of the ARAP.bin and using that as your base code. It is VERY aggressive with it's timing settings and likely won't need as much tweeking as a stock 87 bin to get good power and work well with your combo.
If you do go to the ARAP code you need to remove/disable the cold start injector which is located in the driver side runner assembly between the rear two injectors and the front two runner tubes... You can just unplug it and leave it in there and you will be set as the ARAP is based on the 89 MAF setup which had no cold start injector (also referred to as the 9th injector).
Another thing that you may want to tweek would be the cooling fan on and off temps so that they work better with a cooler thermostat (I assume you swapped to a cooler one than the factory 195* one as everyone seems to do this mod). I would run the 170* or 180* stats though, and not the 160* as the 160* one tends to keep the engine's quench areas a little bit too cool and make it run a bit dirtier and rougher at times. The TCC lockup settings are also a common area to mod like you were suggesting. This also an area where you just need to set it at a speed and see how it feels. The idle settings are something to mess with to get the engine to run smoother with bigger cams than the stock ones...... The rev-limiter and speed governer are also things to tweek. The factory will have the rev-limiter set to 10,000 rpm.... no idea why they did that....... The speed governer in the ARAP is already set to 255mph but some other bins will have it set to lower speeds.....
Anyways, all in all you just need to work with your combo to get it right - don't just give up on parts and remove them unless you are totally certain that they are wrong for your combo... Those injectors should not be too big for your combo.....
If you need a copy of the ARAP.bin, give me an email and I can email it to ya..... I also have a stock 89 bin (AUJN) that you could look at to see what the different changes are in the ARAP versus a mostly stock 89 bin.....
Hope that helps a bit,
Good Luck....
------------------
1987 GTA L98 MD8
355, TFS Heads, LT4 Hot Cam
My GTA
The Minnesota F-body Club
The first thing you need to do is make sure that all of your engines vital EFI equipment is in good working order (ie O2 sensor, TPS, IAC valve and passage, injectors, etc...). If something is wrong it will keep yu chasing your tail for weeks or more... When you know that everything is good, you just need to try out a combination and see how it goes....
I would say with a 400 cube engine you should run the 30lb injectors and try setting the injector ratings to 30lb with a rail pressure of around 45psi and go from there.... If that is what you did before and it was running rich (BLMs going low), try ratcheting their rating values up to 'lean out' the injectors a bit. You really gotta try a combo and go from there.
What bin are you starting with? If you are using the stock 87 bin, I would suggest getting a copy of the ARAP.bin and using that as your base code. It is VERY aggressive with it's timing settings and likely won't need as much tweeking as a stock 87 bin to get good power and work well with your combo.
If you do go to the ARAP code you need to remove/disable the cold start injector which is located in the driver side runner assembly between the rear two injectors and the front two runner tubes... You can just unplug it and leave it in there and you will be set as the ARAP is based on the 89 MAF setup which had no cold start injector (also referred to as the 9th injector).
Another thing that you may want to tweek would be the cooling fan on and off temps so that they work better with a cooler thermostat (I assume you swapped to a cooler one than the factory 195* one as everyone seems to do this mod). I would run the 170* or 180* stats though, and not the 160* as the 160* one tends to keep the engine's quench areas a little bit too cool and make it run a bit dirtier and rougher at times. The TCC lockup settings are also a common area to mod like you were suggesting. This also an area where you just need to set it at a speed and see how it feels. The idle settings are something to mess with to get the engine to run smoother with bigger cams than the stock ones...... The rev-limiter and speed governer are also things to tweek. The factory will have the rev-limiter set to 10,000 rpm.... no idea why they did that....... The speed governer in the ARAP is already set to 255mph but some other bins will have it set to lower speeds.....
Anyways, all in all you just need to work with your combo to get it right - don't just give up on parts and remove them unless you are totally certain that they are wrong for your combo... Those injectors should not be too big for your combo.....
If you need a copy of the ARAP.bin, give me an email and I can email it to ya..... I also have a stock 89 bin (AUJN) that you could look at to see what the different changes are in the ARAP versus a mostly stock 89 bin.....
Hope that helps a bit,
Good Luck....
------------------
1987 GTA L98 MD8
355, TFS Heads, LT4 Hot Cam
My GTA
The Minnesota F-body Club
10-26-2001, 05:39 AM
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Engine: 666 c.i.
I'm sorry I haven't responded sooner but I've been away on business.
I agree with Matt's suggestion of starting with the 1989 MAF $6E version and converting to to it. The ARAP is a good starting point, though you should read up on some of the posts regarding the ARAP. Two of the most common problems cited with the ARAP is the aggressive part throttle spark tables (just back it off a bit) and some long cranking times (see recent posts on that fix).
I don't know what you are using for a BIN Editor, but I would recommend TunerCat with the $6E TDF. That is the best defined TDF for MAF cars and works for the 1989 BINs, like the ARAP. It is almost as well defined as the $8D for SD cars.
Also, the $6E works very well with Craig's "freeware" scan tool, which is extremely useful for gathering information to assist in prom burning. Do a search on some recent posts about Craig Moates software for scanning.
As Matt suggested, you need to adjust for the larger injectors in your car. Start with 30# in the Injector Constant and then you may have to increase it to lean it (if you are getting BLMs < 128 indicating too rich) or decrease it to richen it (if you are getting BLMs > 128 indicating too lean). This should help clear up most of your part throttle fuel.
For your 400, you are probably going to max the MAF somewhere between 4,500 - 5,000 rpm. You are running TPI, so you max revs will be somewhere around 5,000 rpm. Should you be maxing your MAF before 5,000 rpm and your engine is capable of revving in the 5,000 rpm range (and making power), you can compensate for the lack of additional fuel due to the maxed MAF by increasing the %Fuel A/F Ratio in WOT vs RPM (or PE). I have been helping a friend with a MAF 383 Miniram/AFR combo that is maxing the MAF at 5,000 rpm, yet his engine will make power to 6,500 rpm. By increasing the fuel in the PE tables vs RPM, we have compensated fairly well.
This will get you started (you shouldn't do to much all at once). Do these changes one at a time, take scan tool readings, make notes and analyze the data to determine if the changes worked and had the desired effect that you wanted.
After you have overcome these hurdles, you can then look at the Spark Tables for high LV8 and PE/WOT to help maximize your performance. If you are running smaller chambered late model heads, these tend to have a faster burn and don't need (or like) too much spark advance. Somewhere around 28* +/-2* will probably be your optimum. Pay close attention to your knock incidences reported by your scan tool.
The higher spark advance is generally need only with larger chambered heads where the burn rate is slower.
Lastly, do searches on this board on specific topics. There has been a LOT of information discussed on most of the subjects. When I first got into eprom burning I read virtually every old post there were on this board. Some of the questions become repetitive, but there is a lot of good information that will help "get you up to speed".
As you get into specific questions, then just make a post and the guys will try and help you out.
Good luck and don't be afraid to ask questions.
I agree with Matt's suggestion of starting with the 1989 MAF $6E version and converting to to it. The ARAP is a good starting point, though you should read up on some of the posts regarding the ARAP. Two of the most common problems cited with the ARAP is the aggressive part throttle spark tables (just back it off a bit) and some long cranking times (see recent posts on that fix).
I don't know what you are using for a BIN Editor, but I would recommend TunerCat with the $6E TDF. That is the best defined TDF for MAF cars and works for the 1989 BINs, like the ARAP. It is almost as well defined as the $8D for SD cars.
Also, the $6E works very well with Craig's "freeware" scan tool, which is extremely useful for gathering information to assist in prom burning. Do a search on some recent posts about Craig Moates software for scanning.
As Matt suggested, you need to adjust for the larger injectors in your car. Start with 30# in the Injector Constant and then you may have to increase it to lean it (if you are getting BLMs < 128 indicating too rich) or decrease it to richen it (if you are getting BLMs > 128 indicating too lean). This should help clear up most of your part throttle fuel.
For your 400, you are probably going to max the MAF somewhere between 4,500 - 5,000 rpm. You are running TPI, so you max revs will be somewhere around 5,000 rpm. Should you be maxing your MAF before 5,000 rpm and your engine is capable of revving in the 5,000 rpm range (and making power), you can compensate for the lack of additional fuel due to the maxed MAF by increasing the %Fuel A/F Ratio in WOT vs RPM (or PE). I have been helping a friend with a MAF 383 Miniram/AFR combo that is maxing the MAF at 5,000 rpm, yet his engine will make power to 6,500 rpm. By increasing the fuel in the PE tables vs RPM, we have compensated fairly well.
This will get you started (you shouldn't do to much all at once). Do these changes one at a time, take scan tool readings, make notes and analyze the data to determine if the changes worked and had the desired effect that you wanted.
After you have overcome these hurdles, you can then look at the Spark Tables for high LV8 and PE/WOT to help maximize your performance. If you are running smaller chambered late model heads, these tend to have a faster burn and don't need (or like) too much spark advance. Somewhere around 28* +/-2* will probably be your optimum. Pay close attention to your knock incidences reported by your scan tool.
The higher spark advance is generally need only with larger chambered heads where the burn rate is slower.
Lastly, do searches on this board on specific topics. There has been a LOT of information discussed on most of the subjects. When I first got into eprom burning I read virtually every old post there were on this board. Some of the questions become repetitive, but there is a lot of good information that will help "get you up to speed".
As you get into specific questions, then just make a post and the guys will try and help you out.
Good luck and don't be afraid to ask questions.
10-26-2001, 01:05 PM
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I have everything either new or in new condition(aside the 19lb injectors).When I pulled the 30lb inj I did'nt have the stuff to mod the calibration.So the only thing I could do is go to the 19lbers.Righ now I am stuck with them intil I can get the time to put the 30lb injectors back in.But for a stock 87 350 gta bin,the injector flow rate should be changed from 23lbs to 19lbs.Would that get me from 7xxmv to the 850-900mv range at wot.If I put the injector size larger than the actual physical size it will lean out some and smaller than actual size will richen up across the rpm range(good explanation?).That would explain the reason for my blm goin 100 and below w/ the 30lb injectors and stock 305 prom.
As far as the arap bin,I have the $32b tdf for tunercat.I can't afford 20 bucks on another definition file right now.That bin sounds like a great starting point.I do have larger 72cc heads.So which table is best to adjust the timing?
I have a 185 tstat right now.I think a 165 tstat kills your motor.Motors wear certain ways.At 165F the clerances is different than 190-200F.If you have a old motor and want to tighten the bearing clerance and raise oil pressure then a 165tstat is the way to go though.My motor seem to run the best w/ cooling fan at 175 off and 210 off.Its also a good compromise of ideal coolant temp vs.cooling fan life.
The maf is not close to the 255 limmit for now.It will exceed that next year w/ a hot cam,big mouth intake,large tube runners and ported heads.For now I will be trying to tune for the current setup.Righ now its the 19lb injectors.I completely understand how to use the tunercat software and how to burn into the prom.I just need some help where to start and everything helps,thanks.
As far as the arap bin,I have the $32b tdf for tunercat.I can't afford 20 bucks on another definition file right now.That bin sounds like a great starting point.I do have larger 72cc heads.So which table is best to adjust the timing?
I have a 185 tstat right now.I think a 165 tstat kills your motor.Motors wear certain ways.At 165F the clerances is different than 190-200F.If you have a old motor and want to tighten the bearing clerance and raise oil pressure then a 165tstat is the way to go though.My motor seem to run the best w/ cooling fan at 175 off and 210 off.Its also a good compromise of ideal coolant temp vs.cooling fan life.
The maf is not close to the 255 limmit for now.It will exceed that next year w/ a hot cam,big mouth intake,large tube runners and ported heads.For now I will be trying to tune for the current setup.Righ now its the 19lb injectors.I completely understand how to use the tunercat software and how to burn into the prom.I just need some help where to start and everything helps,thanks.
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