Priya

I'm wanting to buy an EBL for my Vortec/TPI build but my husband wants me to buy a Megasquirt instead. As I feel my build won't be too far off from a stock 350 TPI I think the EBL will require less work for initial setup and the factory tune that comes on the memcal will be closer to what I ultimately need than whatever I might find on the Megasquirt forums. My husband is an automotive technician who assembled his own Megasquirt and he tells the the Megasquirt will do everything the EBL does and just as easily - I'm skeptical. What do you think, should I go with the EBL or the Megasquirt?

If I go EBL I'll almost certainly be asking my husband for assistance from time to time but he's very busy and I think there is such wide-spread support for the EBL and TPI tuning here that I'll need less of his help than if I get the Megasquirt.


The motor will be 10.1 compression ratio 350, AS&M large tube runners, SDPC base, stock plenum and throttle body, vortec heads with 165-170cc intake runner, headers, 27.5 lb injectors, and the cam I'm looking at is the Iskenderian rr-265/272 with 112 degree lobe seperation angle, .485 lift & 217 degrees duration at .050 for intake, .505 lift & 225 degrees duration at .050 for exhaust, 44.5 degrees overlap, and the dynamic compression ratio is 8.00 :1 at sea level and 7.81:1 at my 1640' elevation.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

The EBL system comes with all the bins you will ever need, and modifying them into one of your own, say with larger injectors, or different spark advance table due to different camshaft specs takes only seconds to do. EBL is so user friendly now that there are countless members running various configurations, and tuning assistance can be done on this board, over the phone through willing members, as well as through email. I have adjusted quite a few bins for those who were just starting to get them up and running by customizing bins for them, and sending them the tune in email, with them in turn flashing it in within seconds. I also met up with a few local members and showed them in person. EBL is the way to go with a vehicle that is already wired for it. Takes only minutes to install, with the engine started and running immediately after.

- Rob

Priya

The car is 79 Corvette currently with stock L82 350. I was planning on using 90-92 F-body wiring harness, throttle cable, and all stock 90-92 F-body pieces except where otherwise mentioned.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Piece of cake. Either harness, MAF or Speed Density, will easily work for your application. Process would be this in your case; once the EBL is installed and the WUD is reading properly, download the L98 bin into TunerPro V5, change the injector size from 22# to 27.5# (don't worry about the spark advance main table just yet), change your Initial SA to whatever timing you have set on the balancer with the EST disconnected (preferrably 10-12* with the cam your considering), then change your Idle State SA to 22*. Save the bin with your own custom title for it, upload that very bin into the WUD, then Flash it in. Set the EBL for a VE Learn using that same bin that you just made, start the engine, and allow the EBL to dial in your VE (fueling) for you. This whole process is done in a matter of minutes, and even seconds for those who are experienced with it, literally...

- Rob

Priya

Thanks Rob

luvofjah

iTrader: (2)

I personally have an EBL P4 Flash, which depending on your ECM, took 3 wires to add it...
If you're doing the 90-92 MAP one, then it should be 3 wires too... Earlier years you have more wires and essentially have to convert it to MAP.

The maker of the EBL P4 Flasih is VERY supportive and gracious with any questions...
But you live with your husband
As long as you don't get divorced or tunning restriction, he may be well versed with the Mega Squirt and can provide any help needed right at home...

Tough call... I am very happy with my EBL...

Priya

I'm going with the speed density TPI so will be looking at the EBL P4 Flash. He's still working on getting the Megasquirt installed so has no tuning experience yet. He's got an 84 Dodge 360 he's converting to MPFI and coil on plug ignition. He's got the Megasquirt computer assembled and testing okay but still needs to build a cam position sensor, mounts for the ignition system, etc. and to put the motor in his truck. I'm buying the pieces for my TPI Vortec motor as I can afford them and thought I should get the EBL now as if I wait a year or two it may not be available any longer.


My husband has got all kinds of irons in the fire and he can get a little cranky when I ask him for help which is part of the reason I'm inclined to go EBL as there's so much information, knowledge, and expertise here whereas if I go Megasquirt I figure I'll be more dependent on him.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

It's your car go with what you feel you'll be comfortable with.

I have not used an EBL, I also have not used an MS, but I do have one sitting on my desk that I plan to use this year to gt more familiar with the MS.

I have used Delco ECMs for many conversions, including for non GM engines.

Every system will have its quirks, and its strong points, you need to weigh out what seems more important to you.

I like the fact that I have always been able to get any new conversion driveable in minutes, including the aforementioned non GM engines. I have not heard of too many people do that with MS, though it's not unheard of, given the more common swaps where MSQs can be shared.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

The Megasquirt actually does quite a bit more, but that's where most people get into trouble. It has so many options and features that many people get confused or have issues they can't figure out. If you are using a factory harness, ignition, etc the EBL with a starter bin will "just work".
Pros and cons for both systems.

http://members.cisdi.com/~anesthes/projects/prom/



-- Joe

Priya

Very helpful Joe. One thing about the megasquirt that concerns me is your mention of its lack of emissions controls. I've read that best performance and gas mileage on a TPI system requires a working EGR as without it combustion temperatures can rise, cause knock, and result in the retarding of the spark to control knock and if knock has started the spark will have to be retarded considerably beyond the point where the spark advance was just before the knock started in order to bring the knocking under control. This affects gas mileage and performance negatively. So, if the Megasquirt cannot control an EGR then for me that rules it out.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Correct, the Megasquirt has no emissions logic so if you wanted to operate an EGR solenoid you would have to configure the conditions in tunerstudio.

The EBL is probably better suited for your purpose. The Megasquirt is more for racers and advanced tuners.

-- Joe

Priya

I'm convinced now the EBL is going to be better for me but my husband raises one last objection I'm not sure what to say about. He says those 90-92 GM ECMs get a little iffy when they get old and may stop working whereas the megasquirt is new electronic components that will be more reliable.


I want the EBL, but is the age of the computer a serious concern?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Well of course. The EBL is a daughterboard that plugs into a 30 year old ECM. It's old technology, slow, and could die at any time. How many electronic devices do you own that were made in the 1980s ??

But, in theory, hundreds are available everywhere for replacement. A used ECM is $25-50 at the junkyard.

-- Joe

Podium

iTrader: (2)

Megasquirt is awesome and superior in everyway. In this case however it is overkill and a waste of money IMO.

You also have to build it yourself with Megasquirt or pay extra for them too.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

In all the years I've been using OBD1 Delco ECMs, I have only had 1 outright die and that was after it got wet in a rain storm when some water dripped on it, since my car was not as sealed as it should be. There was one other ECM that still worked but not well and that was due to incorrect installation (case grounded to the chassis when it needs to float).

I'm not sure just how many I've used in conversions, but it's quite a few and are extremely reliable, more reliable than I've seen any MS ECUs be. Though the MS failures are likely more due to installation or assembly error, than the MS itself.

Priya

Not having the built in EGR support is pretty much a deal killer for me. Figuring out how to trigger that and when is something I don't see me being ever capable of doing. I just can't see attempting to duplicate from scratch what multi-billion dollar corporation GM did in its tuning.

Priya

Well, that's encouraging. I'll think about it some more but I think my mind is pretty much made up.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I've personally only had two fail on me. A '165, and a '730.

I've probably personally seen 50 'remanufactured by GM' ECM's on cars. Obviously the original was replaced for a reason.

The MS typically crap out due to poor assembly. Honestly, it's the stupidest system of product distribution I've ever seen and kept me from using a MS for many years. But if you buy an assembled one from Diyautotune, or you buy a Microsquirt you are good to go.

But anyway, the OP needs an EBL. It fits what she wants. Unless her husband is going to tune her Corvette.



-- Joe

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

I see a lot of ECMs replaced when they didn't need to be. Many mechanics, especially back when OBD1 was still new just called ECM as the problem and replaced it when in many cases it wasn't. Backyard mechanics are especially bad for this. Most of the an ECM is not returnable, so it stays in teh vehicle without solving the issue that is being experienced. I'd say from what I have seen less than 5% of ECMs that are replaced actually needed to be.

I agree for people with limited experience or limited skill in soldering circuit boards, a pre-assembled unit is the way to go. Personally I enjoy the circuit board assembly process so I will chose that (almost) every time, when I can.

I also agree that the OP should go with the EBL, since it sounds like it fits her needs best.

Priya

I just finished speaking to hubby about it and what we discussed here and he seems to be onboard now with getting the EBL. Hopefully he doesn't change his mind when it comes time to pay for it though, lol.

Priya

Hubby said the main things that go bad on those factory ECMs are the memcal chips and the canistor vent solenoid screws up and burns the ECM. Seeing as I won't have a canistor and the ebl eliminates (potentially) the memcal he figures the major reasons the ecms go bad won't be there on my car.

Priya

Thanks everyone for being so helpful!

dfarr67

iTrader: (2)

I have the EBL on a similar engine with 700r4 works well. Have used the MS...not much to comment and changed over to VEMs. You really should consider the GM 411 ecu as support is universal.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

The problem with VEMs was it was created by a bunch of whiny children that complained about Megasquirt licensing, then turned around and closed the source for VEMs after 3.2.

Which is probably why it's user base is almost nonexistent.


-- Joe

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

I really have to disagree with this that MS cannot have a vehicle drivable in minutes, unless you had every variable in MS blank vs a stock tune in a 730. But then that's not an apples to apples comparison. Even if you had no msq to start with you can copy and paste many of the values from a 730 bin (been there done that). I think Anesthes mentioned already, MS got an undeserved reputation for many things because it was being assembled and tuned by people with no prior experience or knowledge besides the MS manual. I liken it to a newbie taking a newer car autocrossing and being beaten by an older car and saying the older car is just better. No, it's just user error. Ms3 can also tune its own ve table and warmup table.

However I do agree she is better off with the ebl for its ease of use, it's wonderful support on here and the creator is on these boards and quite helpful and polite.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

I have come across exact ZERO people that have been able to have a fresh MS install, without using a previously tuned MSQ from a same or very similar combination to have an MS equipped vehicle up and driveable in minutes. Most of the builds I come across takes a few hours at minimum, unless the tuner has a lot of experience with the MS, to know what to change and where, again leading back to usually starting with a previously tuned MSQ. Even those installs that use a known good MSQ seem to take at least a few hours of fiddling to get to run on the new install. That's likely due to SOMETHING being different that is not always apparent from the get go.

I just see WAY more people with problem with MS than Delco, even on the "wrong" engines for that Delco system.

Dominic Sorresso

I was an early beta for EBL when DynamicEfi was launching it. Used it on an 84 Xfire swapping out a 7747. I don't even recall whether I had to swap ANY pins at all. The ALDL is completely stock while still giving you a great suite of tuning tools. Functionality for the price is pretty much unparalleled for aftermarket ECMs. I really like the idea of the custom code being written very close to how GM did it and so it's seamless. Bang for the Buck IMO.
And on top of that you get RBob!

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

The answer is simple. Most people don't understand what they are doing.

A Delco ECM "just works" because it only supports 1 ignition system, dedicated GM sensors/resistance values, 1 injector firing strategy, etc.

The MS on the other hand has hundreds of questions that need to be answered.

So sure, it's easy for someone who thinks they are a great EFI tuner to get frustrated with the MS, and say it's "garbage" cuz they "couldn't get it to work".. It took me a while to un-learn all the Delco specific nonsense when I started playing with aftermarket systems.

Below are some screen shots showing just the very basic initial things that need to be configured. I may have forgot even a setting or two. How many forum member so you think could set these up without spending a few hours googling or reading manuals?

How many people know if they need table switching or not? Or dual MAP/MAF ?

No, it's not for everyone.

-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

EBL can also tune its' own VE table. I honestly wouldn't want to bother with a self tuning warmup table, as they are easy enough to add/reduce fuel as necessary...

Jim just finished his install, ran like a top the moment he turned the key;

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

What you are doing is not a fair comparison. Of course the person with the stock tune will have his engine running before the person with the blank slate tune. You can be eating a frozen pizza faster than one made from scratch too, same way of thinking.

If you gave the MegaSquirt stock tune to the guy it would come down to who the better tuner was. Nowadays it's hard to even argue that MS takes hours to setup as there are plug and play specific applications or the build company can simply load you a base tune and there are members all over this board and the MS board that will hand out msq files. Was your experience with MegaSquirt I when it first came out, When no one heard of it or could help with it? Is that why you seem riddled with bad experiences?

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Actually I was following the MS stuff before it was MS, EFI332.

I was speaking about using a handed out MSQ, not blank slate, re-read what I wrote. Blank slate would take even longer. I've seen people struggle with MSQs that were supposedly tuned on an EXACTLY identical set-up and it didn't work, requiring hours to days worth of re-work to get to run. Sometimes it was found to be a hardware problem, sometimes it was found to be simple setting in the software somehow got changed upon uploading.

With the Delco stuff, especially on an engine that is close to the same base file, most people can drive around immediately upon fire up, some, if the combination is quite different than the stock application might take a few minutes of tweaking to get it driveable.

I have only recently actually bought an MS, because it wouldn't do half of what the Delco can do and I got a good deal. I've been reading about and following many people/builds with their MS installs, for the last dozen or so years, because it's always interested me, but has never been at a point where I would say it would do what I needed an EMS to do, reliably. Sure the MS can use more different inputs than a Delco, but without onboard diagnostics, no VSS referencing for anything (until MS3, or hacked together code that might work for the MS2), shows that many of the MS developers don't understand the need for VSS to be referenced and change things based on that.

Random resets seemed to be quite common for most users, which is not acceptable to me. This seemed to happen with any versions of the boards/processors. Some people reported that installing better/more power supply filter caps worked, which makes a lot of sense, but that should have been discovered years earlier.

Randomly erased MSQs (which is semi related to random resets), upon restart of a car. Not something I wanted to deal with.

Over all up until about 3 or 4 years ago, these were the common issues, as well as others, that just turned me off of even trying an MS.

I'm going to be testing an MS, once I get my MS2 daughter card, but only to get some real hands on with it in one of my own cars. It still lacks some features that I deem necessary, so it (likely) will not be staying in the car. I will also be playing with a Haltech Sport 1000 later this year, because a friend of mine will lend it to me, for comparison and to get familiar with it before putting it on his car.

The MS is a cool idea, but I think it's still lacking in too many areas for me to use on my daily driven street car that gets abused.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

That was actually a completely different product, but yes, the hardware was designed by the same two guys.

It's quite possible. If I save an MSQ with one version, and you attempt to load it with a different version of MS software it may have problems, or some settings might get zero'd out. Or perhaps they designed to change what an integer is used for. I've read the release notes between versions and questioned why a change like that was made in between versions. MS isn't for newbies.

Funny, I found the exact opposite. I used to use the delco stuff, and I almost bought an EBL until I actually got involved with MS. When I realized how much more the MS did than either of the previously two mentioned systems, I never looked back.

That's not entirely true.

First, to clear some things up. Two forms of software exist for the Megasquirt. B&G code, and MS/Extra. The Extra stuff is written by different folks as kind of an "Aftermarket" code.. The B&G code sucks, no question.

Now that we got that out of the way - we have MS2/Extra and MS3/Extra. They are two separate development trees with different features.. *sometimes* they backport features from MS3/Extra to MS2, but not often. MS2 does *not* support a VSS directly. MS3 does have a native VSS.

As such, none of the engine-related functionality in MS2/Extra will reference a VSS. At first I thought this would be a huge problem, but then I realized that most of the things the Delco code references a VSS for are emissions, fan control, or transmission based routines. Only idle/throttle follower code was missing and I admit that would be a nice feature in MS2.

This is another inherent problem with the distribution of MS. Any idiot can purchase a MS2 'kit' and solder it together, and most should not. I opted to go with the Microsquirt module to avoid such problems. Also, the MS1 and MS2 just have too many surface mount components. I recommend Microsquirt module and MS3 for those reasons - much better hardware.

Other than the VSS, what features is it lacking?

-- Joe

Priya

EGR support.

ChevelleFan

iTrader: (4)

If you're dealing with lots of resets with MS, your wiring sucks. Do a good wiring job, and take all your grounds back to the engine block/heads. (including your wideband controller) Wiring everything up is not hard, maybe a little tedious at worst. Proper grounding is super-critical.

If you're loading MSQ files from mis-matched versions of MS, and wondering why some settings are wrong, thats kinda dumb. Think about it. For God's sake, dont start with an empty (all zeros) MSQ. They specifically warn against this in the manual. (you did read the manual, right?) When in doubt, start with the default tune and generate a new VE table for fuel.

TunerStudio's VE Analyze Live function will give you a reasonably good tune in just a few miles. The more you drive, the better it will get. The default tune's AFR table should get you a nice running engine, though.

If anyone wants my MSQ for MS2/Extra 3.3.2 to see one that works fine for a Chevy V8, PM me since we cant attach MSQ files in the forum here.

EGR Support? Forgive me for saying, the newest car represented here is a 1992.. do places like CA still require full functioning emissions equipment on cars that are 25+ years old?

The real bottom line is use the system you think you can get the best support with.

-Dave

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

There is no "EGR setting", but configuring an output port to enable the EGR solenoid under the same circumstances as the Delco is very easy to configure.

I just don't recommend MS to people who are not EFI tuners.

-- Joe

Priya

Easy is subjective.

Priya

To get the best performance and gas mileage in a TPI system you need the EGR to keep combustion temperatures down and prevent the system from retarding the spark and hurting both gas mileage and performance. Once detonation starts the system has to retard the spark past the point where detonation would not have occurred if it had been set there in the first place.


The EGR is desirable in a TPI system.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Priya, don't waste your time. Less and less people are going with the Megasquirt. Those who back Megasquirt have nothing to back it up with, just screenshots of their tuning, while hiding behind words like "it's an advanced system, only special tuners know how to use it", while their own cars sit in the garage. Haven't frequented this website for awhile before the other day due to personal issues, but already I noticed another big time Megasquirt build in the power adder section bite the dust, never got to see anything, just the hype. Megasquirt is not for special tuners, it was originally intended for people who did not know how to tune period while being marketed as self tuning, in conjunction with being a bargain. Nowadays, every system "self" tunes, and the Megasquirt is no longer a bargain the way it originally was. EBL systems are everywhere, just like FAST, BS3, as well as Holley. One or two members still clenching onto the Megasquirt flag, while proclaiming it is still the best should be taken like a grain of salt. I posted a video of Jim's first startup of his LC2 controlled by the EBL SFI-6, it embellishes two MAP sensors, CnP, Alky control, Nitrous control, Wastegate control, and on and on with more being added as he goes along. Engine runs flawlessly. The moment any member starts to imply his tuning "ability" surpasses even General Motors, that is when you stop taking them seriously...

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Please cite your sources.

General Motors did a fantastic job in 1985.

Curiously, are you still using the same personal computer you used in 1985? Or have you upgraded ?

Man this forum must be tough to use with a 300 baud modem.

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Right, and for stock folks we typically recommend stock ECM's or EBL.

The other posters in this forum have 10 second or faster race cars. We don't run EGRs.

-- Joe

dfarr67

iTrader: (2)

Anybody considering the MS3 Pro should also be considering the Holley line up HP and Dominator, a new one I came across EMU. Pricing has come down on some ecu's and gone up for others. Right now I'm dealing with a bad choice of Vem's on a Toyota but have to say the EBL Flash keeps on trucking on my truck.

http://ecumasterusa.com/shop/ecumaster-emu/

Priya

Yes, that really settles it. For me the lack of pre-programmed support for EGR on the mega-squirt is a deal breaker and after all, this thread was supposed to be about me.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

We already came to the conclusion that it was not for you. But the thread can evolve.

-- Joe

Priya

One person's "evolving" is another person's "highjacking".

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

No dear. You got your answer. The discussion can continue.

-- Joe

Priya

Sorry, I didn't realize I wasn't entitled to my own opinion on "evolving" versus "highjacking".


Of course the discussion can continue, and you can also start your own thread to carry out what you want to discuss. Provide a link to this thread to show where your discussion started and then we'll all be happy.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I've got a lot more options than that.

-- Joe

Priya

ChevelleFan

iTrader: (4)

Here is "my nothing to back it up with."
I shot this video just this morning in response to this. Street Lethal's statement is complete nonsense spoken by someone who has never touched a Megasquirt. I'm not here to bash other systems. I'm just trying to point out MS works, and works well. I drove my car for 2-3 hours yesterday with zero issues.

Advanced system only special tuners know how to use? Who says that? I challenge you to post a link where someone said that. You're an idiot with zero hands-on MS experience. Stop talking about things you know nothing about. I drove around with TunerStudio running and let the VE Analyze Live feature run. Read about it here: http://tunerstudio.com/index.php/tuner-studio

H8rs always gonna H8. This is my last message on this thread.

-Dave

Priya

Oh dear.