morgsie

iTrader: (1)

AC Delco p/n 213-190 is for the bird cage style IAT. It is 3/8 NPT. If you plan on putting it in the air cleaner, source an IAT for a 1990 Caprice. You will have to find one in the junkyard and steal the metal bung. Helped a friend do a EFI conversion on a '68 Cuda and we used one in his stock open element air cleaner, worked great. I recently built a CAI for my '88 TBI Caprice using 4" aluminum pipe and welded a 3/8 NPT bung right after the filter and used the IAT I posted the p/n for. Again, works well.

kevm14

Ok thanks. So the birdcage is the one I found on Rockauto (for a Buick GN). I am not familiar with what birdcage is but I guess it does come in a MAT.

Think it would be better in the unheated intake manifold vice air intake? This truck has the 4.9L Caddy intake on it (plastic). I added this intake to my Caprice long ago and was able to reuse my IAT then, so we could go either way.

morgsie

iTrader: (1)

Mount it right after the filter. Want to get the truest reading of incomming air. This is why we don't mount it in the intake as once the manifold gets heat soaked it can throw the reading off. You don't want to run a MAT on a TBI system because it is a wet flow system. The fuel will cool the sensor, again giving an incorrect reading. This isn't an issue with port injection.

kevm14

I've been meaning to post some pictures of this rig so folks can better grasp what we've been working on.

http://gallery.kevinallenmoore.com/p...600/paul_truck

As for tuning, we had a good tuning day. I even took a day off work. Took a LONG drive and got some great VE data, as I was careful to populate some of the tougher areas. Then I got home and realized I screwed up the 3200rpm VE row (I put the 3200rpm VE + 3200rpm adder into the 3D table...). So it was too rich over 3200rpm, and probably starting a little over 2800rpm as well. I am definitely seeing 128 +/- 2 or so in many areas, which I am happy with.

I added more AE and shortened the filter to decay it out faster. Then I thought it was too rich, so I left the filter, but decreased TPS AE...at the moment it's running better than it ever has, though if you punch it in 4th at like 1000 to 2000rpm, it still stumbles. I did put back the PE %TPS thresholds thinking that was causing problems, but I think what I need is an AE vs RPM table, which I guess the stock 7747 doesn't have. In the lower gears it does alright.

EBL comes Tuesday though it will be a little longer until we can get it installed. The truck was at my house all weekend but it's a 1:45 to 2 hour drive.

The IAC issues have been resolved. No other issues except for one. I think the knock sensor isn't really picking up what it needs to with the way it is currently mounted. The tapped hole in the water jacket is at the rear of the block, and my father-in-law had to use a coupling to space it out from the block gusset.

http://gallery.kevinallenmoore.com/p...truck/DSC_1576

Two or three times we got a DTC 43, though I could get it to go out if I romped on it enough. So I think the KS can't hear properly. Usually it doesn't come on at all, as it must pass the diagnostic routine (which I know many folks never were comfortable with).

I was thinking this style COULD be better?

But I don't know what the ESC is compatible with impedance-wise. Any suggestions? It CAN hear, but it seems insensitive (it called me fat once). It picks up gear grinding, and I found 1 or 2 counts at 100kPa here on occasion. We were planning on keeping the system in place for now just as a safety precaution unless the DTC 43 gets really annoying.

kevm14

I am currently in the process of moving over the ASDV bin into EBL land. Now I'm up to the SA latency table.

The truck has been running with the stock ASDV latency table, which seems to be dead on at idle but about 2° retarded from commanded above that, except at 2000 rpm where it seemed to be 3° retarded (we didn't test higher than about 2400 rpm though).

Stock ASDV table:


I decided to start with EBL bin 2002 which is for a 91 4.3L manual trans.

That has an SA latency table of the following:


Aside from trying to build this table from scratch, does anyone think one table will be pretty close to correct with the 369 ICM? I'm hoping the 2002 bin table will be pretty dead on but maybe someone can confirm. The truck isn't nearby so I can't test at the moment.

kevm14

We met up yesterday. The VSS is installed and working. We chose the Stealth Conversions #2PRS which is made to wire directly into the ECM. No need for the VSS/DRAC from the van. It also has a pass-through for the original speedo cable. For now, I plan to tweak the PPM in the ECM to get that matching GPS speed. Seems like a good unit, so if anyone was curious how it works, it works well directly connected.

We also got the TT1 WB kit installed. For power, we picked a signal off the fuel pump relay output, and sent that to another relay. This gives the desired functionality of the WB controller/heater running only when the engine is running, since the fuel pump works the same way.

Did not have time to connect EBL and try the bin that I made. That's for next time.

On a side note, this truck has no power brakes (factory). The 1-ton of the same generation did have hydroboost with the 454, so I was thinking that may be the way to upgrade to power brakes, rather than stuffing a big vacuum booster in there.

Oh, and we have tach!

New tach

This is a VDO Vision Series 333158. I like this line of VDO gauges. Accurate, nice damped movement, great backlighting. I'm thinking an AFR gauge might be a good fit on the other slot. Any recommendations? Most seem to come as part of a larger kit...

Seems like this may be our best bet: http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/ZR-3/ZR-3.shtml

Is the TT-1 WB system capable of outputting a signal compatible with this gauge? Can I drive both this gauge and the EBL WB input with the TT-1?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

From the web site:

"Power and serial data is supplied..."

It won't work with the TT-1 controller. Need a gauge that can use a 0 - 5 volt signal.

RBob.

kevm14

Do you happen to know of any? I thought it would be nice to have live AFR data in a gauge but it seems that it may be more trouble than it's worth.

morgsie

iTrader: (1)

Set it in the tune and forget it.

kevm14

Yeah I'm leaning toward that now. I thought it would be nice to make sure it wasn't leaning out but I was thinking more ahead to when we figure out a turbo solution (maybe next summer). Maybe we'll stick a vac/boost gauge in that other slot instead.

kevm14

I finally found one!


In addition to the blue, they also make a green and red.

Can we connect the orange wire to this gauge and purple to the EBL? Or would it be vice versa?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

I would use the channel A orange wire from the TT-1 to the EBL ADC channel for logging and VE Learns.

Then reprogram the TT-1 channel B to match the Innovate gauge. And use the channel B purple TT-1 wire to the gauge.

RBob.

kevm14

We've made an exciting bit of progress - EBL is in, TT-1 wired up and I installed my calibration. Interestingly, whatever calibration comes on EBL fired up the 292 no problem. I wanted to confirm everything was working before I flashed it. Of course it was.

We did a bunch of VE learns off the NB O2 and then decided to switch to a WB learn. That seemed more effective, mainly because it could more easily learn in the very light load and very heavy load areas.

I had a good list of things to check and I got through a bunch of them. Injector DC seems to be below 90% and I think that was before I corrected the high load VE in the downward direction. So I bet DC will end up around 85%. I'll have to relog. That's with 61pph @ 14psi.

We calibrated the ICM latency table. 1200-2400 needed adjustment, the actual advance being a few degrees shy of commanded. So I added latency in 50usec increments until it was right on. I made a corresponding change to the SA table.

Pump shot needs work and I'll have to post up segments of log because I'm not 100% sure how to get it to do what I want. I'll take care of that in another post, but basically on a heavy stomp (up to maybe 2400rpm) it'll go lean, then rich. Sometimes it would take a whole second for AFR to come down to PE commanded, even though other times it looked like the pump shot was too lean, then too rich. I couldn't find a marked trend so aside from adding 25% to TPS (which really didn't help), I gave up for the time being.

Here's an interesting tidbit: originally I screwed up my async transition PW table and it was locked in async! I know Eaglemark mentioned something about async and I was surprised to learn that the truck actually drove pretty well in async! I fixed that and it seems a little better in sync but not dramatically so. I would have expected that the lack of any central intake manifold plenum would have resulted in really bad async drivability.

In all, I can tell it drives better with EBL, though my last 25% addition of TPS AE seemed to muddle the crisp throttle response a bit, so I'll have to back that off and take another look at heavy throttle AE, as that seems to be the biggest problem.

I have PE AFR set at 12:1, which I thought was reasonable on E10.

The knock sensor actually seems to be working as a stomp in 4th at 1000rpm up a hill caused some audible pinging, and corresponding KR. That's good news actually.

17 frames/sec of datalogging is just incredible. I also noticed that the exported datalogs contain more information than the logs built-in to the WUD program. But it makes sense as there's so much available that it wouldn't have fit. I already started looking at the dTPS and dMAP and the WB to figure out the AE issues.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

there is a filter that when reduced brings in the onset of AE sooner and duration longer as well.

kevm14

Yes, I know about the filter because I tried adjusting it on the 7747. But I have a couple questions about that (the filters on EBL, that is):

1) I have read that decreasing the filter value causes the AE to be longer duration and a greater overall amount. I get this as it simply causes more dTPS or dMAP for a given TPS/MAP change, which reads from a higher value in the corresponding tables. But does that also mean the AE is brought in faster? I guess I will have to play with it. Technically I suppose it's not "faster," since sync AE has to at least wait for another DRP to latch onto. But faster in terms of the AE itself is a greater PW. I just want to understand this correctly.

2) Is the dTPS and dMAP value in the EBL log already filtered? I would assume yes. Meaning the same throttle stomp would register a higher dTPS/dMAP with a lower filter value. Is this right?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

You can have the TPS AE as async by setting this flag:

Option Word 6 - Bit 6 - AsTAE

MAP AE will still be sync injection.

> Is the dTPS and dMAP value in the EBL log already filtered?

Yes.

RBob.

kevm14

Random thoughts:

- On a log before we did the WB learns, I compared calculated airflow and injector DC. I could reliably predict the new airflow and DC based on the WB feedback. I.e. a WB reading richer than commanded means VE is lower than the ECM thinks, so actual airflow is lower than calculated, and final DC will be also scaled linearly down to match. I proved this out. 85% max a little below 5000rpm is what we've got. I think this is safe. Kind of lucky that these injectors at 14psi happened to be perfect, actually.

- Injector DC tracks calculated airflow linearly. Which means DC tracks HP linearly. I guess I expected it but it's interesting to see it.

- I plotted airflow vs rpm, generated a torque curve estimate (HP/rpm is basically unitless torque). Here is the plot (it's messy but it gets the point across):



I see a torque peak around 3200rpm and a HP peak right around 5000rpm. That jives nicely with what was intended for this 292 I think. I will need a cleaner data log to see what's going on below around 2700rpm, as a lot of that data is all over the place from throttle transients. But it might end up with a torque dip around 2700rpm and another peak around 2000rpm, which would be a pretty nice and flat torque curve.

This engine isn't built to do over 5000rpm, but a 5000rpm shift point I think is reasonable for this curve (for street driving - track would want a higher shift point likely).

Loving this EBL (and the TT-1) so far!

kevm14

Here are the specs on the gauge in case someone is interested. Looks like Innovate runs a little wider band from 0-5V.

kevm14

It's been a while since I updated this. I had another Master's course that took up my past 10 weeks. Yesterday I met up with Paul to check out the truck. He now has a 700R4 backing his 292. MUCH better than that 4-speed dump truck transmission. 3.73 gears, from the van (stock in this truck was 2.73s). A little too short but it drives well. I think there's a TV adjustment issue, as no-throttle and light-throttle upshifts are too late/too firm, and backing off the adjustment did not help (probably an issue at the plunger/valve itself). Otherwise, everything seems normal. Shifts about 4500rpm @ WOT, which I assume is normal for a 1992 G-van w/ L05 (TBI, ECM, wiring, trans and gear donor).

He ordered the correct VSS gears for a 3.73 and his tires. So until then, I can't tune the TCC.

Of particular relevance to this thread, I'm sure everyone remembers that nasty stumble when matting the throttle at low RPM. Well, that's totally gone now.

Since I did a lot of tuning with the manual, the tune for the auto was pretty good. Once the VSS is hooked up, we'll meet up and I plan to accomplish the following:

- All IAC stuff (particularly the MPH follower stuff - the park/drive already seems fine - I may lower the in-gear idle a tad)
- TCC (basically by feel/preference I think)
- Launch mode (the 1992 G-van 700R4 TC is fairly tight)
- General spark tuning (like TCC lock retard, or SA in the TC flash region, if I don't feel launch mode can adequately handle that)

Does anyone have any other things I should look at, since we went from a manual to auto?

Still don't have an IAT wired up. I'm not sure it needs one in this application. It was much cooler yesterday than when I did most of the tuning and BLMs were like 127. I think intake air temps are stable since we disconnected the cold air hose to the grill (just sucks from the caddy air box in the engine bay).

Otherwise, I think this thing is just about done and ready to be used. Oh, I forgot - he has a hydroboost setup on it now. I think the donor was a late 80s 1-ton pickup.

Next major powertrain mod is probably a ~6-7psi turbo. Maybe next summer. Otherwise, after I get the TCC going, it should be ready to actually use as a truck again!

kevm14

Any 700R4 experts?

Is it a common problem to have late no/low-throttle upshifts? It acts like the TV spring is too long (pushing the valve too far).

Does anyone have experience with the trans calibration of a 92 G-van w/ L05 and 3.73? The lateness seems outside of just a calibration difference to me. You can actually accelerate to 2000rpm in first gear and it'll just hang there until you apply more throttle to continue accelerating, or if you happen to hit ~12mph it may upshift. Part throttle and WOT shift timing seems normal. Maybe the TV valve or plunger has some kind of burr on it? I can't see it being a TV cable adjustment issue as the minimum upshift speeds never changed even when I backed the cable completely slack. Other experience with this transmission indicates that I should have seen a 1-2 min throttle upshift much earlier than 10mph with a fully backed off TV cable.

Paul is going to diagnose the TV system using a line pressure gauge, but we also need the line pressure specs for a WCM code 700R4. My 93 Caprice FSM doesn't have WCM listed.

morgsie

iTrader: (1)

The valve body I used in my Caprice was actually the original 9C1 (1989) that came out of the car 5 ago years when I got it. It slipped bad on the 1-2 shift, which turned out someone had ground the servo pin and never rounded the tip. It eventually wore out where it engages on the band. I replaced it with a unit from the wrecker and put the 9C1 in storage. The 9C1 valve body has the same shift valves as a F-body, I had actually bought a F-body valve body and when I pulled the pan on the 9C1 discovered it already had the performance valve body in it. This was nice as it was already calibrated for the 3.42s. I used Probuilt's (Dana) rebuild & shift kit. About the only thing I'm on the fence about is it doesn't shift in OD until 70 kph (45 mph). This has nothing to do with the shift kit, but the spring on the 3-4 shift valve. I haven't driven the car enough to know if I want to keep it, but it can easily be changed by shimming the spring with an aluminum washer.

I really like the way part throttle shifts, it's not like every other truck/van 700R4 where you're basically in OD and locked up by 35 mph. It holds the gears a bit longer which I like, it's not constantly downshifting when you move the throttle 10%, which I reckon gets better milage. I also like how it will lock up in 3rd gear, which again the truck/van ones only seem to do in OD. Sorry for rambling, but you might be happier with a more performance geared valve body if you're going to start messing around with what you have. I still have my extra one and make monthly trips to Washington state so shipping would be reasonable if you are interested. You would only need to source the correct governor which can be got on ebay fairly easily ($30-40). I also know of a transmission auto wrecker in Indiana that specializes in 700R4 stuff if you want to go that route.

kevm14

How does a gearing difference affect trans calibration?

Paul installed the 3.73s from the van into his 83 C10 anyway. This thread is about his 83 C10, in case there is some confusion.

I think the earlier upshifts are desirable because 3.73 is a bit too much gear for what this truck is. So waiting for upshifts at light throttle is just annoying. I don't think it goes into 4th until like 42mph. I want to say my 93 Caprice w/ 3.42s will go into 4th at like 29 or 30mph.

Anyway, the part throttle and WOT shifting of the 92 G-van 700R4 in his 83 C10 seems fine to me. It's just the very light throttle (or no throttle) upshifts that are late/firm. Which is why we think it's a TV issue (not the cable, per se).

I will say, however, that GM's performance valve bodies do seem to have the best performance oriented shift calibrations. But with the 3.73s this truck could handle 4th lockup at 35 mph (1100rpm) with no load. The stock ECM cal on my Caprice wouldn't lockup 4th until 43mph, which I found really annoying. I have since modified it to lockup down to like 32mph.

kevm14

Speedo gear troubles.

The 17 and 45 tooth VSS gearset is what he bought and it should be within 1mph at 60mph by my own calculations (3.73s and 235/75-15s). I reset the VSS scaler PPM to 2002 (as it was stock). It's off by a factor of 2.4x (too slow). Both the ECM and speedo head. In fact, the odo is also off by that amount. So everything is consistent but way wrong. Why?

He is using the Stealth Conversions 2PRS which creates the 2000PPM signal and passes through the speedo cable connection. This truck is using its original 1983 gauge cluster.

When driving 60mph via GPS, the speedo and ECM both read about 25mph. He drove 10 miles by GPS and the odo incremented 4.2 miles. Like I said, it's 2.4x slower than it should be.

No transfer case, 2WD. He installed the drive gear on the output shaft. Interestingly, this 1992 G-van donor trans used the 40 pulse per driveshaft rev reluctor (and a DRAC) originally, which I thought was strange because I read that the 4L60-E brought the 40 pulse reluctor - 1992 was still the regular 4L60/700R4. Maybe the 40 pulse is just for all vehicles with electronic speedo. Anyway, he removed that reluctor and the DRAC, since the 2PRS conversion VSS sender enables that.

The thing is, there is no combination of available VSS gears that could cause this, and he verified that they are correct anyway (17 and 45 teeth).

Are we missing something?

kevm14

Funny story.

They sent the wrong gear. The website showed a red 17 tooth drive gear, and he received a red gear. But I guess he forgot to count the teeth because - get this - it had 7 (SEVEN) teeth. So that's a 7 tooth drive gear and 45 tooth driven gear, which caused the speedo to be off by 2.4x.

The gear was quite chewed up as it was clearly not for this application (though it fit the shaft fine).

He is switching to a 15/40 arrangement which, by my calcs, will put his speedo 0.5mph fast at 60mph. Just waiting for the 40 tooth driven gear to arrive by mail (already snagged a used 15 tooth locally).

Then I can tune the TCC parameters.

EDIT: You can see the red 7 tooth drive gear next to the 45 tooth driven gear. The driven gear looks like it survived though we won't be reusing it.

morgsie

iTrader: (1)

Kev there is a really good trans auto wrecker I used when I built my 700R4 that was recommended to me by Dana @ Probuilt: Teal Automotive. To bad I am on the west cost, I have an extra red 17 tooth drive gear that came out of my spare 700R4. Funny story, the plastic speedo housing use a plastic gear on a metal shaft driven gear and the aluminum housing uses use a one piece all plastic gear. Talk about a heart breaker when my original metal shaft speedo gear wouldnt work in my the aluminum housing! Teal sorted me out though and informed me of the differences though.

kevm14

Lots of updates. We finally have TCC operation. Paul didn't know that the brake switch is different so he connected the switched side of the original 83 C10 brake switch to the TCC wire. The result? It would only lockup when pressing on the brakes (the 12V enables the TCC solenoid). That was fun. We revived the 92 G20 switch (which has a second TCC switch on it) and wired it in. Success.

We also made big progress on the fuel pressure regulator front. I hadn't had a chance to get to the truck yet so Paul installed the Aeromotive 13301 at 14psi, to match the stock regulator setting. I wanted to prove out the fuel system at pressures sufficient to run the turbo so we approached it in several steps:

1. It still had the low pressure spring so we dialed up the pressure to 20psi (the low pressure spring is rated for 3-20psi operation) and I changed the BPC to match. Started and ran pretty much the same.

2. Swap to the high pressure spring (rated for 20-60psi) and dial pressure to 26psi. Changed the BPC to match. Started and run pretty much the same.

3. Add the vacuum reference (drops to 16psi at 40kPa idle), switch to vacuum reference in the EBL, and road test. Still drove pretty much the same though we did a WB VE relearn (it was off in places).

But I did not touch the injector offsets, prop gains or anything else. Injector DC dropped from like mid-80s at peak to around 59%, which created a lot of headroom for more fuel later. At idle, the PW is totally fine (from memory in the 1.6-2.0 msec range). The FPR should gain 1psi of fuel for every 1psi of manifold pressure, so that would put us at 34psi @ 8psi boost, which seems to be in the right range for ~300hp. However, I think I have confused myself. With the vacuum/boost referenced fuel pressure, we need 34psi just to flow 26psi worth of fuel, correct? Because the pressure created by the turbo makes it harder for the fuel to flow out of the injectors. Therefore, the fuel requirements have to be met by the regulator's atmospheric pressure setting. Is this right? If so then the boost reference just maintains the 26psi worth of fuel flow during turbo operation. I don't think 26psi is enough for 300hp and 61 lb/hr injectors. In any event, there is room for growth, assuming the stock regulator block off plate/gasket and whatever else is up to the pressure.

I just ran some rough numbers. At 300hp and 0.55 BSFC, we'll be at 95% DC with these injectors (assuming we get 26psi worth of fuel flow with the turbo, with the regulator compensating linearly for boost). So that's not enough.

I calculate we can support about 268hp @ 85% DC. I also calculate that to support 300hp @ 85% DC, we'll need 33psi (atmospheric). Which means it'll bump fuel pressure to 41psi under 8psi of boost. Do these numbers bother anyone?

It's also nice because the truck has an actual interior now. Logging is a lot more pleasant. I should also add that EBL continues to be a joy and worth every penny. Also, the WB is kind of a must-have, as well.

Next step: add the 2-bar MAP and IAT. We're also being pretty methodical about turbo selection. Lots of variables and some of them are assumptions.

kevm14

A couple more tidbits from today (previous post was from Saturday).

DFCO finally works. It would kick in and kick right out. I suspected it was exiting due to RPM or MAP delta. So I raised those limits and sure enough it would stay in DFCO now.

I played around with the PE AFR. It was commanding 12.0 and we'd often get high 11s. I leaned that to a commanded 12.5 but we got a little bit of knock retard. I split the difference and commanded 12.25 and removed ~1.5° SA at 4000+ rpm.

A good trick for checking MAP AE is to keep a steady throttle and let the trans upshift at part throttle. It was not enough (would go to 15+ briefly after a shift) then I added too much. I backed it off so it's a little rich, which I think is fine.

I also still have some low RPM excess TPS AE. I need to continue working on this but it's better. The drivability itself is fine, but it still goes to 10 briefly on initial tip in often. I think it would be a bit more crisp if that was leaner.

He installed the TransGo Junior 700R4 kit. It shifts fairly cleanly but it's really not firm, except on the part throttle 1-2 (which I think is because the TV is one notch too tight). It will need the full monty TransGo kit (which I donated having bought it 12 years ago for my Caprice and never used it).

Also, we need to dink with the governor. It shifts too early, which is even more noticeable with the 3.73 gears. 1-2 @ 4400 rpm (only 30mph). 2-3 @ 4300 rpm (only 55mph) and it obviously doesn't do a 3-4 at WOT due to the truck valve body. I think it wants to run to about 5000. Then the 1-2 would go to 34 mph, and the 2-3 to 62 or 63 mph.

Here is such a kit: http://www.tciauto.com/tc/gm-governo...ration-kithtml

morgsie

iTrader: (1)

I'm telling ya, get one of Probuilt's shift kits and a better valve body. I still have a F-Body valve body that I don't need. All you have to get is the correct governor off eBay which is around $30. If you mess with the governor to much it really starts to affect part throttle shifts. Let me know if you are interested.

kevm14

Extra grainy potato cam teaser.

Some info here (http://forums.kevinallenmoore.com/vi....php?f=4&t=397), but I will try to add some stuff to this thread if only as a reference for someone in the future.

Seem to be maxing out the fuel pump on waste gate at ~5.5 psi with no intercooler. Next up: more fuel flow. Then: intercooler.

This is so cool. Inline 6, TBI, turbo. An unholy combo. Love it!