soarestransam

Ok so I started with a fresh new bin 3006 changed the bpc vs vac to 177.00 (ebl utility calculations) flashed that in to the ebl tried starting and nothing shouldn't it run with a base calibration at least

Next I'm checking for power on the sensors first the map. One thing I noticed is that I'm not getting a signal (power out of pin b) also not getting power to pin a the only one that is showing power on the test light is pin c tps signal which is the 5v

Next thing on the wud shouldn't the cafr read 14.5-17.8 it's only reading 1.4 ?????

Also noticed that the old maf harness that ain't giving out any power to any pins as well so I'm really starting to think this is a wiring harness problem bob gave me pin change layout and i did each wire one by one to not put any in the wrong spots

Let me know if you guys think something is messed up here

Update was trouble shooting the maf connector and noticed no power out of any pins i then changed the burn off relay and now have power to c which is green/white wirr which goes to map sensor signal pin b so i have power coming out of that now still no start though

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Good.

Measure power on the ECM side, not the MAP side just yet...

Key on will read low, it will target an air/fuel when the engine is started.

soarestransam

still trying to figure out why it wont start do u think it could be another harness problem

Also how do i check map sensor on ecm side

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I just seen the edit with the update above. When switching from MAF to MAP, I am confident that you took your time and did each pin carefully and that you did them one at a time. Let's review your work...;

MAP - Pin A;

You are basically transferring the stock MAF Sensor Ground (Black/White Wire) to the new MAP sensor, and it is only providing a ground for the new MAP sensor itself...

MAP - Pin B;

This is another wire taken from the stock MAF Sensor In (Dark Green Wire) which originally is found in your stock ECM at location B12 but your are moving it to C11 for your MAP power. To confirm power on the ECM side, after you move the pin from B12 to C11, probe C11 with key on. If you have power on the ECM side, but not on the MAP connector side, it is somewhere in between the two points in the harness...

MAP - Pin C;

This wire is from the TPS 5-Volt (Gray Wire) and you already stated it is showing power...

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Pin B for the new MAP sensor should be a solid Green wire, originally from B12 in your stock ECM for the MAF Sensor In that you then moved to C11 for the EBL Flash MAP sensor input. It should go straight to the new MAP sensor pin B from the ECM...

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Let me just clarify, the only Green/White wire from the stock ECM to that general area where the three relays are housed is for the Fuel Pump Relay (pin A1 in the stock harness), which can be mistaken for one of the MAF relays. Be sure the Green/White wire is not being used with the new MAP sensor. Just to reiterate, you want the stock B12 wire now repinned to C11 to go to the MAP Pin B...

soarestransam

Yea i didnt take any wires out from that area to repin or to wire the map the only ones that I used were the black one for the ground pin a on maf connector and pin c on the maf connector i then took the pin b12 from the ecm connector and relocated it to pin c11 so that should be correct

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Normal as that is the cranking AFR for a cold engine.

Use the diagnostic display on the WUD. Always, always, always use the diagnostic display when checking sensors, always. At key-on, engine-off the MAP will show the barometric pressure, which at sea level is about 104 KPa.

I'm still not seeing any data logs of this...

RBob.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Craig listen to RBob, a datalog has been asked for since page 1, if you threw one up already you would have had your engine started the very first day. The WUD tells you everything you need to know. Let's go through that as well. I'm using my P4 WUD for illustration purposes only, as your WUD screen will be a different color, but the same process overall. Also, I am not keying on so you won't see my WUD light up, but be sure to do this process with key on when you are datalogging...

First, open the WUD and key on the engine so you see the data being displayed. Again, the picture I am using is with key off, so be sure your WUD is receiving data and lit up...;



Second, take another look at the picture above and you will see on the left hand side of the picture that "Logging" states OFF. Now, bring the mouse/arrow up to where is says "File" on the top left of the WUD, and in the drop down box, highlight and click Datalog...;



From here you will be asked to select a title for your Datalog, as well as where you want to store it on your computer. Just put it in the Downloads section, or keep it where it pre-designates the stored location for you, just remember were it goes. After you select and type in a title for it, hit OK. The WUD screen will now indicate that "Logging" is now ON, this means it is now recording everything that is taking place. You will also see the title of your Datalog underneath the Run Time on the top left of the screen, in my example I chose to name it "testdatalog111". Let this Datalog recording last for a good ten to twenty seconds while Logging indicates ON...;



After ten to twenty seconds subsides, go back up to the File drop down on the top left of the WUD, then highlight and select Close Datalog. At this point the Datalog is complete, and it is saved as a .dat file wherever you chose to save it earlier...;



Upload or email that .dat file immediately.

antman89iroc

Stay focused, stay positive. SL will help you. One step at a time. There is some detail, connection or combination of settings that is in the way. You're almost there.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Information from the datalog, as well as Craig's explanation of exactly what happens when trying to start the engine is as follows. To reiterate, we know the engine runs on the stock ECM setup so spark and fueling are good. When he rewires it for the EBL Flash he states that the engine will crank, and want to start, but it won't catch and stay running. If he tries to crank it over again after that attempt, it won't even try anymore, it will just repeatedly turn over. Although he confirmed that he is getting good fuel pressure (42-psi and holding) as well as spark throughout the entire process...

Datalog sensor information with key on is as follows;

MAP - 4.9 Volts (101 kpa)
TPS - 0.5 Volts
CTS - 54* F
IAT - 54* F
O2 - 103 Counts (455 mv)

There are no malfunction codes throughout the datalog.

His initial timing is correctly set in the bin at 6* BTDC, his IAC steps are at 117 key on, his Injector Duty Cycle reaches 10% during cranking, TCC box is lit although I am fairly certain it is because he is running a manual and gear selector is at 0. I think it's time we now examine how he wired the fuel injectors. Craig can you confirm that you moved pin D15 to D14 for injectors 1,3,5 & 7...

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Heh, not only that, but take a peek at your Pump Voltage on the WUD...

Edit: Scratch that, as that screen shot above was not during cranking, I left out the fourth picture from the datalog during cranking in the post above, but voltage does increase during cranking, I will include the fourth picture here...

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Let me keep everyone posted with this, Craig messaged me and will confirm the proper pin move from D15 to D14 for injectors 1,3,5 & 7 either tomorrow, or over the weekend. Once confirmed that it was done correctly, I told him to then check his fuel injectors individually during cranking to confirm all eight of them are getting pulsed by the ECM...

soarestransam

Ok so once i check the d15 to d14 and if that correct the tool i need to check the injector pulsed is called a noid light right if so ill pick one up this weekend i know harbor freights sells one cheap i think

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Yes, confirm that the D15 to D14 pin swap was done correctly, and if it was, then check to make sure the ECM is pulsing each individual fuel injector one at a time while you crank the engine with a noid light. You'll of course want to see that all eight being pulsed when you check them as the engine is cranking...

soarestransam

Ok everyone i have checked pin d15 to d14 (black with a pink stripe wire) and im getting power out of it on the ecm side

I then used a noid light to check if the ecm was sending a pulse while cranking on the drivers side 1,3,5,7 all flashed only one that didnt was the cold start injector plug

I then did the same for passenger side and 2,4,6,8 all flashed telling me that those also got a pulse as well while cranking so now where do i go from here

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Your sensors are giving you the data you need in the WUD, you have no malfunction codes, you already confirmed you were getting spark, now you are confirming that all eight injectors are being pulsed during cranking. You also confirmed earlier that the engine wants to start, it just doesn't fully catch. We are also assuming your fuel pressure is good because the stock ECM starts the engine. Pull each spark plug, wipe them down thoroughly and clean them, then put them back in. Try to start the engine again. If the engine still doesn't start, pull the spark plugs back out and check to see if they are saturated with fuel...

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Craig, the first picture I am posting up is your current cranking AFR and pulse width tables. I am also posting a stock L98 cranking AFR with pulse width tables right underneath it. Change all three of your values in the three tables in the top picture to the values in the bottom picture, then crank the engine again...

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Update, the engine is still not starting. This is with him getting air, fuel and spark, and still not starting. I really wish I was there in person to help you with this Craig. But once again let us recap so we can move on to the next area...;

On the very first page prior to him having any knowledge about EFI timing he was able to get the engine started with the EBL Flash. He stated no hesitation during throttle increase, but he felt that timing was way off and that the engine was running rich. Once he moved the distributor by hand is when everything went south. He couldn't get it to restart after telling him how to set base and initial timing. He then reinstalled the factory ECM with MAF, set timing to 6* BTDC, and the engine started and ran. Not great mind you, but it did start and run. Herein lies the first question, was the balancer really set to 6* when the stock ECM was put back in, or was the distributor simply turned by hand during cranking until the engine finally caught?

I reread the first page again of the conversation he was having with RBob up until when the engine stopped starting for him. He set his fueling, he disabled the TCC, he confirmed no EGR in the bin, etc, and the engine started and was running fine. Rich (due to the lack of VE Learns), but was still at least starting and running. He was concerned about the HSR being held back with the stock tune, and he then said something to RBob that is more than likely the culprit, he said he felt the timing was way too advanced for some reason. We don't know where the timing was at that point when he said that, only that the conclusion was being made that he felt it was too advanced. This is when it all went down hill as the distributor was moved while running (assuming he retarded it because he felt it was too advanced), and that took care of that, didn't restart since. Next question of course, why did he feel it was way too advanced if the engine was running with no hesitation other than running a little rich? Was something showing on the timing mark that indicated way too advanced, or was it because the distributor was rotated blindly until the engine caught when cranking?

In any event, this has to be a timing problem. If in fact the distributor was turned by hand blindly just to get it started the first time with the EBL Flash, and then again the second time when the factory ECM was put back in to test to see if it would restart, but not not being able to start when being set the right way, then either the cam timing has been altered when the engine was built, or indeed maybe the balancer did in fact slip. I believed earlier that the balancer didn't slip based on being told the factory ECM was set to 6* on the balancer when it restarted, but now I am thinking the distributor was turned back and forth blindly by hand during cranking until it finally started, it had to be. Craig, using the keyway direction found on the center of your balancer as your target, and only the keyway direction, bring the balancer 45 degrees clockwise from straight up. Now, with the keyway facing 45 degrees clockwise from straight up, where is the timing mark on the outer part of the balancer in relation with the timing tab? It should be at 0 TDC...

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Good news guys, Craig got the engine to start and run. It wasn't the balancer and it wasn't the timing. When I told him two posts earlier to pull the plugs and check to see if they were saturated with fuel, turns out they were, and the plugs were fouled. He changed plugs entirely, and the engine started up immediately after. He sent me a datalog of it running for about two minutes. Will check it out now and post up some details for you guys in a few...

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Here is a picture of the datalog, I included the malfunction code box in the upper left hand corner, which is showing two codes. One for the EST, and the other for High MAP reading. He will need to reconnect the EST bypass as soon as possible for the next datalog, and the MAP code will go away once he starts tuning the idle with a few VE Learns. As you can see in the pic his IAC steps are way too high as a result as well. Reconnect that EST Bypass...

antman89iroc

Well congrats! Most of the problems I encounter turn out to be something like this. All the "hard" parts have to be right before any real tuning can occur. Now the real work begins.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

He's a good guy, he was just allowing frustration to set itself in. We just got to get him up and running so he can enjoy the tuning experience with the EBL. Once he grasps it, I think he will do excellent. Right now his Idle State is set to 20* but the idle timing wants to bring it way down because he has the EST disconnected, so he needs to connect that asap. We just need to again confirm that he is seeing 6* at the balancer with the EST disconnected, and then connect it, and then see 20* at the balancer, because now I can't help but question why the EST was still disconnected during the datalog, hopefully he just forgot to reconnect it. Once connected, and timing again confirmed, will then give him a better SA Main table as a base for that Holley Stealth Ram, then he can start focusing on his VE Learning...

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Just a reminder that if the engine starts to load up while cranking, holding the go-pedal to the floor is a clear flood mode. While cranking this greatly reduces the injector PW.

RBob.

trona

Hi There
Does anyone run the P4 flash system on a 383 vortec head motor with tpi.
that would be interested in sharing there bin with me?
I am interested in comparing you results with my questionable ones.
Dave

soarestransam

It was disconnected during datalog to verify that i was still at 6 degrees and with in range that the motor would run sorry for the late response btw

So here i go i left it the same way as the last post i did est disconnected started it up tonight was still seeing 6 degrees btdc with timing light i let the motor fully warm up 190-210 degrees ebl verified was in closed loop shut motor off dosconnected bat hooked up est bypass connected bat tried starting it it started but stalled immediately

Now if i hold the throttle about 1/4 way down 25-30 percent on ebl the engine will run but as soon my foot comes off it will stall what could be going no malfunction codes showin up either

antman89iroc

Ok a few things, when you disconnected the battery you reset the idle so it has to relearn. Not a big deal if you have everything close but may be part of the problem. It's possibly trying to idle very low. Others may correct me here but I have never disconnected my battery to disconnect or reconnect my EST wire. I shut off the motor, but don't reset the computer.

I would look at my idle counts (IAC) from your previous log and compare it to what it's doing now. You MAY need to increase your idle stop screw on your throttle body if the IAC counts are way high. I like mine to idle with 30-40 counts. Others like less. First I would just start it a few times. The computer will learn the idle very quickly.

I would verify the idle before going on to other things like timing. BTW I have never ran my motor but for just a few minutes with the EST disconnected. Not that it would hurt anything but it is just to set the distributor then reconnect it. If your motor likes less timing, then you could lower the SA at idle.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

There is a good possibility that the pickup coil to ICM wires are backwards. This can occur if the tab on the connector breaks, or if the connector is pinned in reverse from the factory (I've personally seen both errors).

When the pickup coil wires are reversed the spark advance goes retarded instead of advanced. This occurs once the ECM takes over timing control. Such as when you reconnected the EST/BYPASS connector and the engine RPM exceeded 400 RPM.

Note that swapping these wires to the ICM will change the base timing. So that will need to be reset. Then see what happens once the EST/BYPASS connector is closed.

RBob.

Larry

Does your timing light have an advance dial on it? I had one that turned very easily and ended up gluing it at zero because I forgot to check it once and it threw me way off.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Bringing this back to the top...

RBob.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Just a follow up to this; although he mentioned earlier the EST was connected during that datalog above, he again checked base timing with the EST disconnected after that datalog which showed the malfunction codes, he then reconnected the EST, disconnected the battery, and then reconnected the battery again. He is now stating the following during the second attempt, which I haven't seen yet through a datalog, but am waiting for it to confirm...;

* Timing is set correctly (6*/20*).
* No malfunction codes anymore.
* Engine starts but stalls unless throttle is held open by at least 30% TPS.
* Engine is knocking at idle (as per Craig it sounds like a top end knock).

I already told him to increase the fast idle screw on the throttle body to keep the engine running without him having to peddle it with his foot, this way he can walk away from the drivers seat and make changes without it stalling on him. I told him to get some VE Learns in during idle as well, in which he confirmed that he did for three solid minutes after advising him to, and the engine is in fact reaching Closed Loop at this point. I told him we need to see a second datalog, so we're just waiting on that from him. Bob, I also told him to confirm the wire connector direction under the distributor cap to the Ignition Module in case the tab is broken, which should have the Green wire on the inner and White wire on the outer of that connector when connected, just waiting on his feedback...

soarestransam

Ok here is an update for everyone i been doing ve learns from idle to about 2200 rpm it seems to be smoothing out very well but im still getting the rich exhaust fumes i also noticed that the o2 sensor will not cone down past 800-900 mv is this normal when fully warmed up iac steps are around 100-120 steps is this fine or should it be lower

soarestransam

Bump was wondering if anyone could help

RBob

iTrader: (1)

This will depend upon how the tune is set up.

They should be lower. For a port injected engine adjust the idle stop screw to get 20 - 25 IAC steps. This is on a warm engine with no other loads.

RBob.

soarestransam

Ok what if the idle stop screw is turned all the way down to the point where its not even touching the throttle blades

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Need to go the other way, opening the throttle blades will lower the IAC step count. While doing this keep an eye on the WUD's idle indicator. When it goes out will need to turn off the engine for at least 10 seconds, restart the engine, let it settle, then continue with the adjustment.

This occurs as the TPS% is increasing as you open the throttle which causes the ECM to drop out of idle mode.

RBob.

soarestransam

Bump still trying to figure out the fueling on this looks like i need to adjust the ve tables in tuner pro. The motor wants to lean out at around 5000-6000 rpm

RBob

iTrader: (1)

If it is leaning out then increase the VE in those areas. Grab a data log and look at the RPM & MAP during this time. Then go to the VE table and update it.

RBob.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

[QUOTEOk what if the idle stop screw is turned all the way down to the point where its not even touching the throttle blades ][/QUOTE]

Vac leak?

Is IAC functional? Key on cycles as expected on visual? or wired correctly?

soarestransam

Ok so i been increasing the ve tables both high speed and low speed by 5.00 now it is still leaning out at 4000 rpm and above i noticed that above 3500 rpm that the timing is dropping down from 36 to about 28 and gets lower as i try to increase rpms what could be going on with this setup now

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Sounds like the fuel delivery is dropping off.

Why would you add to the low speed VE when the issue was at 5 - 6 K RPM? If the low RPM areas are also going lean, then need to look at the fuel pump, hoses, filter and so on.

RBob.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

[QUOTE i noticed that above 3500 rpm that the timing is dropping down from 36 to about 28 and gets lower as i try to increase rpms what could be going on with this setup now ][/QUOTE]

Any KC's?

I presume the SA table is not commanding the change.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Make sure your extended SA table is linear with your main SA table, as 4800-RPM is the crossover point, and the extended SA might be commanding less spark up there...

soarestransam

I dont know rbob im just getting really frusterated with this whole fing setup this ebl is nothing but headaches like all of this stuff u guys are telling im clueless i was thinking this would kinda be a walkthrough but its not and no one around my area knows or deals eith doing the ebl so i cant send it out to get it fully dialed in right like im at a lost with it i think i done everything right but seems like i havent the fuel pump is new the regulator is new no fuel coming out of the vac nipple and im not leaking any fuel out of the injectors so how could it be a fuel problem

soarestransam

And how would the fuel delivery drop off if the timing is dropping when the rpm climbs makes no sense

soarestransam

Ok so im looking at the main table and the extended table at 4800 rpm the extended table reads the same thing as 4800 rpm all the way up to 6375 rpm should that be correct or does that need to be changed if so how do i go about changing it

soarestransam

Im gonna try changing the distributor just because of the timing backing off when it revs higher i spoke to a couple of small block guys around my neighborhood that were gear heads back in the day my nieghbor said that the distributor shouldnt retard the timing when giving gas it should advance timing he says something is wrong in the pick up or module to be doing that i have a few 87-92 dizzy laying around so ill try changing that and see if that fixes the problem also gonna change the knock sensor to a 91-92 speed density one since im using one from a 87-89 maf car

RBob

iTrader: (1)

It may be the opposite, that the AFR is going lean and the engine starts to knock (detonate). The ECM will reduce the timing. This is what Ronnie is alluding to.

Can you post your the data log and BIN?

RBob.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Craig, the commanded timing is based on your RPM and kpa, a la the two graphs, the Main and Extended SA. RBob is correct, throw up your bin and a datalog if you can. I can tell you that members who install an HSR using a stock TPI chip suffer a very similar outcome. You just need a little more tuning, but throw up a datalog otherwise we're shooting our arrows in the dark...

soarestransam

bin