redraif

Ok so has anyone else had this happen? This as NOT a crome moly unit! It was mild steel... will have pics tomorrow in the daylight! Car is OK as am I!

NOTE: Not bent...just broke clean in 2! No hard cournering, or eccessive speed when it occured...just easy simple straight driving down the road!

PA Racing with spring pocket...

84RIceEater

Never Heard that b4...... how much where they?

ss86

iTrader: (1)

WOW! Good job!

Hopefully they'll replace it for you (if you even want them again). Was there a lot of load on it or vibration from a stiff suspension?

Ace

iTrader: (2)

break on the weld? the spring perch? or just the pipe broke right in half?

kinda glad that **** didnt fit and im rolling on stock stamped crap :|

Kat

iTrader: (4)

I am not surprised.

Sorry that it had to happen to ya.

Kat

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Care to elaborate ?

Kat are we any closer to the release of the spohn K member for our cars ? Im buying a rack from someone here on the boards and the spindles that are modified for a shorter arm so the steering throw isnt reduced, to use the rack i'll need a tubular K member and i've also heard PA or pro fab can make a K to work with the stock arms, I want the spohn arms and have seen evidence of trouble with the pro fab K member with them. Any help here ?

I was considering seeing if i can get the K member from them just bare metal and tack welded together and having it TIG welded locally by a shop i trust. This is if they can make me one to work with the spohn A arms.

RTFC

I have said this all along also, it was just a matter of time before one of those crackhead products broke.

Buy Spohn products, go for quality, not the best price. I too have had an A-arm break on me from another manufacturer (another type of vehicle and an unknow manufacturer here) hence why I sort out and buy the best quality product that uses great materials and welding techniques.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Hahaha, thats pretty harsh, but in reality, spohn released his arms not very long ago, and doesnt even have a K member out.

What are your opinions on what im considering Dean ? I really want to run the rack setup, and i dont know if i'll be able to get the spohn k member with rack mounts, if it even ever comes out.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

If I recal guys, shes using cut v8 front springs. So they would be a "hair" stiff in her car, but not unreasonable.

would love to see the pics.

Glad to here your alright, car could be repaired even if it was damaged.

RTFC

The best K-member on the market is your stock one still. It is a very heavy duty unit that can withstand a decent front impact from road debris in the event of that happening. Any k-member made aftermarket to the strength of the factory one will be darn near the same weight. The only fairly good unit I ever saw was the Roadtech unit with the double tubular crossbars, yet, it even could have been beefed up more with plate welding. I almost bought his jig from him a few years back but could not settle on what I considered a reasonalbe price, besides, I am still too busy in life for the next 5 years to get involved with making car parts yet. Got a house I'm extensively remodeling by myself in what little spare time I have ( I am in the construction buisness, but my own house take back burner to income jobs)

Guest

The day someone actually does some engineering on a part like that is the day one of them might last. Right now, every single piece out there is a fabricated piece of guesswork.

Thats the same spot all those type of arms fail. Look at the factory piece, there are no welds. No chance of lack of weld penetration, embrittlement, weld thickness, stress concentration, any of that.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

I didnt say my stock one is weak, i also didnt say i wanted to do the K member for its weight savings, I need one due to the rack setup I am purchasing, for its availability to come with mounts, I would likely add quite a bit of extra bracing and gussets as I reasonably could since this is a daily driver. However it seems that they have some issues with their welds and i'd probably feel better having it TIG welded locally.

TopleZZ candy

I like how everybody jumps on the band wagon here..........One product out of how many failed......Im sure there are hundreds out of the thousands of members here who have aftermarket suspension parts and have had them for sometime without failure......I would be really interested in pics as well as to where the break is.....more than likely its at a weld.....

RTFC

I have said all along that their welds look like they are on crack. Their "spring pocket" idea is down right scary.

Do a search, I have said this crqap all along trying to warn people.

Spohn has designed a true boxed spring pocket that is very sturdy, + he uses top quality steel and he TIG welds everything. Also uses tubular threaded inserts when applicable. PA is down right shabby fabrication. I have also seen where PA used Chromemoly and steel together in a mickeymouse setup and all MIG welded, not TIG'd

CheezX

Did you guys know that in the aircraft industry they only use welds for non-structural parts (in general)? Madmax is right, there's just too many unknowns. You'd have to do crack inspection on each unit before it goes out. And that doesn't guarantee the weld is good on the inside. Just another thing to think about.

TopleZZ candy

do you think they put that much effort into every structural weld on every car that comes out of the factory........

Karps TA

iTrader: (2)

Maybe that's part of the reason why they used stamped ones.

What makes me leery hearing this is Redraifs car is a V6 so it's not as front heavy as a V8 car, plus she certainly doesn't seem to be one that would beat the heck out of the car.

I'm not sure how Spohn's boxing of the spring perches matters much. The contact point to the tube seems to be about the same and anyone else. Just the perch itself is boxed. 1 bad weld and you're in the same position as anyone else should it fail.

TheGreatJ

Did this happen on your way home from G9, Shannon? I'm looking forward to seeing how it broke, as I was considering buying some soon for my Teal car.

TopleZZ candy

Let me rediterate my question.......I know they used stamped steel, I was refering to welded structural support......Ie any part of the subframe or any other seam that supports the cars mainframe.......

Not trying to get in a pissing match....just clarifying......
I am still interested to see where this broke at.

I guess this is just the chance we take with replacing with aftermarket in a quest to make our cars peforme better.......

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

It happened late Sunday afternoon...we left G9 to go a couple exits up to Dynolab (closed, unfortunately), and I was following her with my dad and son in the car. She was about to turn onto I75 (in the rain, with heavy traffic) when the wheel was nearly jerked out of her hand. Fortunately, she stopped right there. We thought it might have been a loose wheel or something, but couldn't find anything wrong there in the turn lane, with typical a**hole Atlanta drivers making a big deal. So she drove it just across the intersection for a better inspection (can't believe it made it!), and thats when we noticed the real problem. The funny thing is, it (passenger side) didn't break on a weld...the part that broke was the rearmost leg, about 3-4 inches from where it bolts to the k-member. It doesn't appear to be a broken weld, its like the tubing just snapped. These are the mild steel ones, not chromemoly, and they have been on the car for just over a year, with maybe 10,000 miles on them. We'll get pics and post them tomorrow. I just hope PA will make this right without having to resort to hiring an attorney (though we have a good one in mind just in case). No damage was done, but had it failed just a minute or so later Shannon could have been killed.
BTW the car is a V6, has Eibach Pro Kit springs (cut one half coil in front), TA sway bars, and all the bushings except the panhard rod (spherical rod ends) are urethane.

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

Any failures of a critical suspension part are too many...fortunately no one was hurt in this instance, and the car wasn't damaged, but a former PA vendor told me that a customer of his lost the whole front end of his car due to a similar failure. IF PA doesn't handle this in a professional manner, you (and every other automotive message board I can find ) will have plenty of pics of the break.

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

I agree and as Madmax has said, until someone starts engineering the parts they are selling to 3rd gen owners out there, they are going to continue having failures like this.

Dr G

Any comment Kat? Even on a rough time-scale level, i.e. this year or not?

Thanks!

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

I won't even go into what all happened with the K that I got hosed with from PA.... junk

MrDude_1

anyone have pics of the broken A arm?

why did it fail? tubing material failure? weld failure? overstress??







btw, just got this in the mail this morning................

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

The tubing failed apparently...its not in an area close to any of the welds. The car hasn't been hit, or done anything that reasonably would have caused damage or undue stress. Pics will be posted later tonight.

redraif

I threw a few quick pics up on my suspension site...

pics

91Z28-350

It's hard to see for sure, but how close is it to the weld spot where the spring perch is? From the angle it looks like the metal was weakened when it was welded or from the stress of the springs on that spot.

redraif

Its about a halfinch to an inch away from the actual weld point of the coil perch!

Edit nope was wrong right next to the weld...

91RS5speed

wow thats crazy could the metal be weaked from the heat needed to weld? It looks like it would have to be heated up twice to get the perch and the mounting point on there. Or it could be just cheap tube.

I was thinking about putting a tubular setup when I swap my engine this is making me think twice.

redraif

Funny thing is this week I was going to be buying a tubular cross member... now I'm wondering what to do!

Kat

iTrader: (4)

NICE!! Seam welded tubing! :stroke:

As for th Spohn K member. Not anytime soon. We're still kinda busy keeping up.

My guess for it breaking, there is no bracing in the arm and there is no give point. IE the bushing. Which is just a nylon bushing.

Kat

TuOrZ

Well... that's definitely a stress fracture. Most likely caused by those three pedestal spoilers you had on the car for a while. Plain old excessive downforce will do that.

RTFC should come in here and explain it better, but I'll just borrow one of his detailed CAD drawings explaining the situation, please direct any questions to him as it is just too complex for me to explain.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

I'd ship it back if I were you

drain89

iTrader: (10)

I would think that since Steve initially built his business through this message board and that us thirdgen people put our faith and money in him; thus giving him the support that he needed to grow and succeed...the least he could do is make the tubular k-member somewhat of a priority for us. After all, there's alot of people who bought PA or ProFab units because they gave up on waiting for him to offer one. Some also bought AJE and some now probably BMR. It seems to me that he's missing a market here. Maybe not as big of one as '05 mustang parts or whatnot...but still there's money to be made. I personally like Spohn's craftsmanship and tried to get him to make me one over 2 years ago. I've waited and waited and even looked at other options, but have yet to find anything as well constructed as what Steve could offer. Hopefully he'll come thru for us in a reasonable amount of time.
I don't see anything from Steve on these boards anymore, so that worries me on what kind of interests he has on making parts specific to thirdgens.
I know the company has demands to meet...but if it's doing that well why not manufacture enough of an item to build an inventory allowing him get back to things like the k-member etc.
Not trying to sound like a d!ck...just my .02.

92MaroRS

i think its better that he focuses on customer service rather than building parts you want.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

The problem isnt him focusing on CS, its they're working on parts for a bunch of other cars instead of producing parts we've got $ burning holes in our pockets for.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Wow, what a freaking retarded design.

There’s a possibility of 2 things going on there.

First, that is right next to the weld for the cross piece that holds the spring pocket. A large proportion of the spring force as well as the weight of the car rides on that 1 little point on that arm. At the very least that section should have been welded to the bottom surface of the tube instead of the center line with a proper gusset and probably a heavier section there. I really can’t believe that someone thought that was a good idea.

Second, and I kinda doubt this one because the tubing they use is significantly smaller then that section of the stock control arm, but I would check the top of the arm for marks in that area. That is the location where the control arms contact the body first if the car has been really lowered and the bump stops shortened.

Why would you want a rack setup on a daily driver?

As far as k-members, you’d be better off welding whatever brackets/mounting points you need to the stock member. For those of you that are looking for something lighter, I would trust a factory k-member that has been strategically swiss cheesed WAY before I would trust any of the aftermarket pieces. Same deal with the LCA’s. The factory ones could stand a little boxing but they’re made of MUCH heavier steel with a much thicker cross section as well as a larger profile then ANY of the aftermarket LCA’s.



Um, sparing the details (you guys can do web searches if you really want them), PA has a long and sorted history with how they came about, where some of their designs came from… but in a nutshell, this isn’t the first such problem, they’ve had a few parts (mostly 4th gen and mustang) that have pulled apart under street use. Usually though they are the tabs for the assorted pivots/mounts just pulling right out of their welds/tubes/seams. You might be able to justify/get away with this stuff on a dedicated drag car, but anything that is going to see some serious cornering forces or a pothole I would strongly recommend against using the stuff.

There is nothing wrong with MIG welded stuff if it’s done right. MIG’s problem is that anyone can pull a trigger and lay down a bead, and even a decent _looking_ bead with a little practice, but it’s MUCH harder to do it well (as in proper penetration…). TIG is harder to get going with but once you figure it out it takes less skill to get consistently good beads.

As far as chromemoly goes… skip it entirely unless you’re going to use the proper filler and then normalize and then heat treat the part after it’s done.

RTFC

My quote was" chromemoly and steel together and then MIG'ed"

You don't not want to ever MIG chromemoly, PAracing is. And they are not doing anything to treat them afterwards.

Plain and simple there should be no arguements. Anyone looking at this should know not to MIG chromemoly. We are not metalogists (sp?) and the average person reading this should just obey that rule of thumb, regardless of what some "expert" may say you can get away with X,Y,& Z. The heat produced makes Chromemoly brittle when MIG welded.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

MIG puts less heat into it then TIG, of the welding processes used for this kind of assembly MIG has the highest arc temperature and can be done the fastest putting the least total heat into the weld, but still, any welded joint in chromemoly will self quench and harden.

My point was that there is nothing wrong with MIG welding when done right.

WRT to 4130, any welding will cause localized hard spots. _At the very least_ it should be normalized after welding and there is no real point in using it unless it is heat treated after welding. I don’t know of anyone making aftermarket suspension parts for our cars out of it that normalizes or heat treats their parts.

And no, generally chromemoly should not be welded to other steels in structural parts

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

Does anyone make a properly designed tubular lower a-arm, or should we just box the originals like RTFC?
Also, is there a tubular K-member that is built properly and has the strength for road racing? I heard good things about Roadtech, but understand they are no longer produced.

RTFC

Regardless of what anyonwe says about engineering things or lack of...
Spohn makes a great tubular A-arm setup with a completely boxed spring pocket that evenly distributes the load of the spring(car weight) onto the A frame. The design is basically identical to a setup I have been running on an '89 Chev truck that carriesa 3500lb payload REGULARLY. Thats a total of about 8000lbs total vehicle weight with truck and payload on 1100# BB front coils. I had another design break on this truck years ago from a bad balljoint gusset design, Spohn uses seamless tubing as a mount for the balljoint, not a steel plating with a hole punched into it.

Might I note, our 3rd gen cars are 1/2 the weight of my work truck. That pring pocket design will never break on a 3rd gen as long as the tubular stock is good quality and the welds are good. Spohn uses TIG welding and the best quality steel tubing, not cheap crap like PA uses. E-mail Steve and I sure he will gladly give you a parts breakdown of quality of materials he uses.

cali92RS

Maybe im just dense, but what is the point of laying down $395 for those LCA's when they weigh just a tad less than stock and are MAYBE as strong? (Im speaking of the ones with the spring "boxes", not the ones for the coil-over setup).

ksrammstein

I think many people also like the fact that they make working under the car about 10000000000% easier and the weight loss is just a small perk.

RTFC

You mean A-arms, not LCA's

Steves arms do not flex upward or twist at the balljoint like the stock stamped steel units do Tubular stock is alot more rigid and maintains geometry over a bump more so than the stamped steel flat plating. And when you try and weld the stock ones more to try and help prevent flexing like I did, they ultimately weight more than Steves units do. Don't like his products and don't feel they are safe, then don't but them. I have many of his products on my car and I trust them with my life on a regular basis, otherwise they would not be on my car. And elieve me, I put them through there paces and inspect things regularly like any good driver or pilot does for that matter.

RTFC

I have welded my stock ones trying not to add to much weight yet trying to stiffen them from flexing. They are still weaker than Spohns, and are heavier.

87CIZ

iTrader: (8)

have you contacted PA about the problem, I'm sure you have. What's he doing on the customer service end? I'm going with profab since he said he's use heavier stock to make the k-member and a-arms

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Box the stock ones completely an then use a couple of different sizes of hole saw to lighten… you’d be surprised. With some creativity you can get them _a lot_ stiffer then stock and the same weight.

Also, for most of the areas boxing with some thinner, roughly 16ga steel will add very little weight and a lot of rigidity. That is what I usually do with the rear LCA’s. either way, if you follow the contour of the bends on the ends where the bushings or BJ is, even with lighter sheet metal you end up with a much stronger piece then if you just left them open or go with a straight piece.

redraif

If I had a choice when i got all my suspension products I would have run all spohn. I started replacing and upgrading...then it seemed like the spohn products came out. Always right after! Is spohns K member avail yet?

Like I said if it had been avail I would have gotten spohn! I would buy a k member right now today!

redraif

Thanks! I'm just glad it was not damaged...lots of headaches mid show season! Just got the new front fenders and all!

Honestly I was more worried that if it had let go on the expressway in the rain...could you imagine going 60-70MPH in Heavy traffic on wet pavement! Would not have been just repairing the car. Would have been repairing me and someone else or burying us both! : (