fulo

Hello everyone. I am trying track a problem I have. I have been told that some of the Trick Flow heads in the past had a problems with their valve seals & guides.

I built a 355 engine and put the twisted wedge heads. I am losing allot of oil. I am trying to determine if its the heads, or something else.

Does any body knows about the problem with the twisted wedge?

Thanks

KevinP92Z

Early TFS (G1) heads came with cast iron guides that tended to be a problem if the valve train setup wasn't jsut right. They would chew up the guides and more often than not, half of the valves.

Later heads came with SilicaBronze guides, and with careful attention to valve train setup, the problem usually diss-appeared.

I had this happen on my early TFS heads. Seemed fine after re-work.

I'm in the process of re-building my 383 now, so in a very short week or two, I'll know how well the heads are standing up after the valve guide material change.

Also I seem to remember something about a few folks having bad K-motion springs on some TFS heads.

Don't take this wrong, but what symptoms are you seeing to suspect the heads? Puffs of smoke on start-up?

craiger

I had the "g2" tws heads on my vett and they preformed great! Consequently, my valve guides went bad after only 7K miles! I went wiht AFR's instead of Trickflows due to this experience and it was the best 1300 i've spent on my car! As far as the problem you have, I would do a compression check, squirt some oil in the cylinders and compression check again. After teh oil, if the compression increases, suspect rings, no change, suspect valve guides. Good luck and keep us posted on what the problem is.

fulo

Thank for your reply. I contacted TF and the said that I need the new bronke/magnesium guides that are standard on all their new heads.

About the valve train set up.. may be I need some help there. I am using the GM ZZ3 Cam (208 in/221 exh. lobre sep 112)

I am using crane gold roller rocker arms of 1.5 ratio. and the stock lenght push rod that came with my hyd. roller LG-4 Engine.

Any comments

craiger

yea, you can't use the roller rockers on the tws twisted wedge heads because it changes the geometry and fries the valve guides! Beware of the Trickflow twisted wedge heads! I purchased the G2's and my valve guides went bad after only 7K miles! I checked the geometry and they were perfect! I would spend the extra $$$ and get the AFR's! I can hook ya up with a guy that sell's them for 1300 shipped to your door.

Lounge Lizard 6

You CAN use RRs on TF heads. On at least the G1 heads you can't use 7/16" studs. Makes the trunion too wide to fit because of the splaying of the vlaves.

What I see as the possible problem is the stock pushrods. My G1s take a different length than stock. You need to use an adjustable pushrod checker before you run it on stock lenth pushrods agian.

craiger

I spoke to tws just before i purchased myb afr.s & they told me that you can use rr's with the new trick flows but NOT with the twisted wedge heads. All I can say about tws heads is been there/done that. I'm thankful i went with the afr's & they are well worth every penny.

fulo

I just spoke with one of the Trick FLow representative. The guy told that to check the rocker studs, sine it runs thru the intake. Also, he mention something about a seal that pups pup, or something like that.

Either way, I am not very happy with this product. I wish I had bought the AFR... but was cheap them.... and know I cannot even afford a pair of regular chevy heads.

Any ways, I have the First Generation trick flow twisted wedge.

I am going to take the heads out next week, and see for myself.
I will keep you posted.

craiger

I hate to say it but: Been there/done that! :nono:

And I had the G2's!!!!!

fulo

Craiger & the rest,

If I take the heads a a respectable machine shop, shouldn't they be able to fixt the problem. I really don't want to put more money on this if is not going to fix it...??

craiger

As long as they put in good valve guides... bronze/magnesium guides ! And as long as you make sure that you have the right geometry on the pushrods. You can get a adjustable pushrod checker from summit for about 40 bucks and in your case it's well worth it! Bottom line, If you get the bronze/mag valve guides and the pushrod checker (and the right pushrods which are usually .001 longer than stock...I think is .73 instead of .72) You should be ok! I would put some cash into porting the heads since you have them off! I had my TWS heads ported and it made huge gains! The TWS trickflows flow almost as well as teh afr's out of the box, the workmanship sucks, but they do work and if you end up spending the cash to do it right, I'm sure the heads will serve you well! Good luck and please

KEEP US POSTED! We have so many posts yet the end results we rarely hear........????????? So keep us informed on your results!

fulo

Here is a reply from one of you that I though woild be helpful for all of us... I will KEEP YOU ALL POSTED> THANKS


The geometry is always going to be an issue with the G1s. That's why TF
changed the geometry when they came out with the G2s. I guess under the
most ideal situation they won't last as long as a more conventional 23*
head. That being said, the 1.6 RRs will put more strain on the valve guides
than the 1.5s would.

When I had mine rebuilt for the ZZ4 shortblock swap I had bronze valve
guides installed. I had the machine shop run a real tight clearance, too.
So I had to be careful for the first 500-1000 miles to be careful the engine
was warm before I got on it hard. I also re-used my 1.5 RRs. Now with ~36k
miles on them since the rebuild I still don't have any valve guide problems.

BT (Tranzman) on SEThirdgen is running them, too. He's running the same cam
as you and he appears to be having excellent results so far. I don't think
he is running 1.6s, though.


So I don't sound like a hypocrit, I am planning on upgrading to a more
conventional 23* head when these finally wear out again. IMO, one rebuild
is enough. So trhat's all I would invest in them. Have them pocket-ported
while they are off, too.

Mike

laiky

I opted for the AFR's when i built my motor, 190's because they flowed better in the CHP tests. but i also had a ****load of problems with them. Apparently my first set were defective ( they didn't quit fit.

I don't understand why a roller rocker would hurt the TFS valve guides? It is supposed to reduce any side loads on the guides.

also
bronze guides are actually less durable than cast iron, they are widely considered to me a hottrodding urban legend. The OEM uses CI and they last for tens of thousands of miles where bronze are notorious for early wear.

fulo

O.K, Wish is better... Cast Iron Guide, or Bronze Magnessium?

In pure Engineering Materials, Cast Iron with resist more wear and tear.

Bronze is a pretty ductile Material, and Magnesium.. Well I don't know what exactly be the effect of this mix.

My biggest concern is if problem with the Twisted Wedge G1 is that is the problem they have is a DESIGN Problem.. If so, it CANNOT BE fix by a Rebuilt.

I really don't want to put the money on something that will not last equal or better than stock heads.

Any comments??

craiger

I would go to a few machine shops and get their opinion. The only difference between the G1 and the G2s was the bronze/mag. guides and the change was supposed to solve the problem. Also, contact trick flow. I beleive that if you go to a good machine shop, get the right valve guides, push rod geometry checker and the proper length push rods, you will be OK! I know that the reason the rr's mess up the valve guides is because of the 23deg angle (or is it 18deg?) of the intake valves on the twisted wedge heads which is a lot different than the new style of tws heads ont he market now. Anyway, they prefrom great, jsut get to a good machine shop and you'll be oK! And make sure to use the stamped steel 1.5 rockers...Not Roler rockers, and get the right lenght pushrods which should be .001 longer. If you do that, you'll be fine!

Lounge Lizard 6

The main diff was a change in the angle of the intake valves. I think they went from 13° to 16°. I believe they also changed the twist of the combustion chamber. For example, you can use G1s on a 305 but can't do that with G2s. G2s have a larger runner design ~195 vs 170 and flow better, too. So there was a significant change in the design.

As far as iron vs bronze..the main reason is the bronze tends to hold the oil better, promoting better lubrication of a very critical part. Remember, TF tried iron with abysmal results. Additionally, I can't think of an aftermarket cylinder head manufactuer that doesn't use bronze guides. I can't imagine they all would be operating under a myth. So if it is so much "urban legend" then all I have to say is, bunk!

So fulo, it's not like you are working on world peace or almost have the answer to cold fusion. Find out what it will cost to refurb the heads with quality components and compare with a new set of another brand. Pretty simple I think.

fulo

As far as I know, roller rocker put less strain on the valve train. How will this have the opposite effect on the trick flow???

I can see were the 1.6 increase the stress on the guides, but not by that much.

Friction is reduced at the tip of the valce, and the motion of the rocker is more controlled.

I will e-mail the trick flo representative on this issue, and keep you all posted.,

THe reason i don't take swift action is thatn I am in tight budget, not enough to buy the cheapest new heads... and I really want the AFR..from what I heard this are the one that last and perform.

craiger

yes, the rr's do put less strain on the valve train, however, they do something to the geometry of the Twisted wedge heads. I'm sure you can get them working for a fair price! And they do preform great!! I would go with the heads you have and a good machine shop! If you opt for the AFR's, I can give you a lead that sells them 1300 shipped to your door.

C

laiky

The only reason i can think of is that the roller rockers ( roller bearing trunnion ) cant pivot left and right like a knurled ball style rocker like a stock one. The roller trunnion only allows motion in one plane. if you go with a pivot ball style there is some play in pivoting side to side.

is this the reason?

craiger

I think so. It's been over 6 years since i have delt with tws twisted wedge heads. But I think you hit it right on the head. The twisted wedge heads have a very aggressive intake angle and you can only have a cam with a max lift of something like .520 lift because any more lift will make the valves hit the pistons. I can t remember exactly, its been a while. I have heard thet the ndew 23deg tws heads are fairly reliable, but they don't flow as good as the twsted wedge heads. I called TWS two years ago and a rep told me they were not going to carry the twisted wedge heads anymore because they were going to only cary the 23 deg heads.??? Anyhow, sorry if i rambled, but yes I think I rember tws telling me exactly what you said.

Artie@TFS

This is going to be a long reply....

KevinP92Z: You are right on the money with everything you said exzcept for one thing. We use Manganese bronze guides, Not Silica bronze. We did have an issue with the 1.250" valvesprings on those heads, And yes, They were K-Motion springs. This was back in 1995-97.

Craiger: What brand/part number rockers were you using on the G2 heads? What length pushrod? How did you verify the rocker arm geometry? The G2 heads use a powdered metal valve guide, The same material that is used in all of GM's aluminum heads. I have yet to see a set of G2 heads fail because of the heads themselves. Using a roller rocker arm does not "Changes the geometry and fries the valveguides". While using the incorrect pushrod length in conjunction with a rocker arm that is not recommended for the heads will eat the guides, Making a blanket statement that you cannot use roller rockers is just plain misinformation. Allow me to explain: The first thing we need to keep in mind is that not all roller rockers are created equal. As an example, Look at the listing for the 1.6 ratio Crane Energizer rocker (#11746-16): They use the same part number for AMC / Mopar / SBC & SBF.....How can they have one part number for 4 different engine families? Very simple, They make a "compromise" rocker that "kinda fits". On a stock location inline valve engine, This is not a real big issue. On a rotated, Altered valve angle head, This just simply does not wortk. That is why we list the recommended rockers in the instructions that come with the heads. The Harland Sharps / Proform / Crane Energizer / CAT & the Comp Magnum roller are not recommended because the center-to-center distance from the rocker stud to the valve tip is incorrect. When trying to set up these rockers on the twisted wedge heads, everyone does the same thing, they shorten the pushrod until the rocker arm sits in the center of the valve at zero lift. (When you shorten the pushrod, the rocker slides down the stud which in turn pulls the rocker back towards the center of the valve...) The problem is this, When the rocker starts up the ramp of the camshaft it shoots all the way across the valve tip because the center-to-center distance is fixed, No matter how short you make the pushrod it will always side load the valve which in turn side loads the guide, which causes premature valveguide wear.

LoungeLizard6: You a correct on all of your statements.

craiger: I find it hard to believe that we would tell you that you cannot use roller rockers on your heads. We use Manganese bronze guides with viton seals on all of our current product line (With the exception being the G2's...) and have not had any failures so long as you follow our recommendations in the instructions.

laiky: Bronze expands at a rate similar to SST. You can run tighter clearances with a bronze guide than you can with the cast iron guide when using SST valves.

Fulo: Guide material is dependent upon the valve material & power adder type, and to a lesser degree, the intended fuel. For the most part, Bronze guides are the preference when using SST valves.

Lounge Lizard 6: Again, You are correct on all of your statements. With two exceptions: The G2's are 190cc & the G1's are 180cc, We changed the exhaust valve angles as well, The G1's exhaust valve is tilted 23* whereas the G2's are tilted 18*.

fulo,laiky & craiger: Refer back to the paragraph where I explain the differences between the different rocker arms and you will see how a rocker arm that is made to "kinda fit" will wear out the guides prematurely.

craiger: Piston to valve clearance is not determined by maximum lift. At max lift, The piston is already on its way down the bore. Duration @ .050" & lobe seperation play the bigger role in PtoV clearance.

Please, Feel free to give me a call @ 330-630-1555 Ext 6324, 9am-5pm EST, Mon-Fri, If there are any further questions that need answered......

fulo

Artie, great input, certainly clarifies allot of issues.. I will difenetily keep you al posted on this issues.. WHen I take my heads out I will post Pictures.. we will figure this out, and I will give you the out come.

Thanks

Mike

laiky

if i knew that there was someone that knowledgeable at TFS and not at AFR I'd have bought the TFS heads. Nice to get an intelligent explanation.

craiger

Artie,

Where were you a few years ago when i purchased the tws twisted wedge heads? Your customer service people/tech gave me the "blanket statement" of not being able to use roller rockers and not being able to use 1.6 lenght rocker arms. And I don't remember my part number? They were for a 87 and newer corvette(3400015?)?? Anyway, old news but the quotes i replied to this topic were direct from your tech or customer service people whom I dealt with durring the time i owned the tws heads. And I use a pushrod length checker when I installed the heads and the geometry was perfect, the valve guides did go bad. I'll say it again, they preformed great.........But, I'll refrain from the rest.

Morley

WTG Artie. I am currently using TFS G2 heads and they are great. BUT!! You must read and FOLLOW the instructions that Trickflow packages with the heads. They were even good enough to tell you what length pushrod to use with several popular aftermarket rocker arms. If you ignored all the warnings and recommendations that come with the heads, well then you deserve whatever happens. Trickflow has gone to great lengths to inform their customers about what is required to use their products, ignore them at your own peril.

m23haz

Craiger: will you please email me at m23haz@hotmail.com
Your email is not listed.
Thanks
Mike

craiger

NOt sure if you read my posts but i used the stock stamped steel rockers, proper length pushrods, and yes followed the directions! I even used a pushrod lenght checker to make sure the lenght/geometry was perfect, which is was. Maybe i had a bad set, who knows? The did preform great.

Artie@TFS

I spoke with craiger via PM. There were a couple of reasons as to why his particular combination failed. The first reason, He used a set of stock GM stamped steel rockers with a camshaft that exceeded .460" lift. Anything more than .460" lift and you will have an issue of the rocker arm binding on the stud. When a rocker arm binds up on the stud you will have a sideloading issue at the valve tip. Guess what happens next? (And in a hurry....)
The second reason, He used the Manley "plastic rocker" type of pushrod length checker.
The problem with that type of checker is that it does not know what type of rocker arm you are trying to simulate. In hindsight, The pushrod length was probably not correct after all. Allow me to explain why we do not recommend using any type of "generic" rocker arm type of tool for verifying pushrod length:
Remember how I mentioned that rockers have different center-to-center lengths between maufacturers? We are going to expand on that with this; Depending on the manufacturer (Heck, Even the series of rockers from the same manufacturer...), Some rocker arm bodies sit lower on the trunnion than others. For example, If you look at the pushrod cup in a Harland Sharp rocker, You will notice that the cup is recessed quite a ways into the body, Then look at the pushrod cup in a Crane "Gold Race" rocker. You will see that it is not recessed nearly as much. There are two trains of thought when it comes to valvetrain geometry. One says that you want the rocker arm to start on the inside edge of the valve and travel across the tip as the valve opens to max lift (Body sitting low on the trunnion). The other, Wants the rocker arm to start slightly towards the inside edge, travel to slightly past the center of the valvetip, and then come back slightly towards the inside edge at full lift (Body sitting high on the trunnion). We set up our heads to use the latter type of rocker arm. Which is why we recommend the Crane "Gold", TFS, Summit "Black Extruded", As well as the Comp Cams "Pro Magnum" roller rockers.
The only correct way to verify rocker arm geometry/pushrod length is to use an adjustable checking pushrod, with the correct rocker arm for the cylinder head, that you will be using on the engine.
Please do not misinterpret what I am saying about the Harland Sharp / Crane "Energizer" rocker arms, They work fine on our inline valve 23* head. They just plain do not work on the twisted wedge head, Whether it's the G1 or the G2.
For the record, The stock GM stamped steel rockers work just fine on the TW's, just do not exceed .460" lift. Actually, I tell everyone to not exceed .450" lift when using stock rockers so as to be on the safe side. (Due to the wide variance in ratios on the stock GM rockers I would not use them anyways, But that is a different discussion altogether...)
I answer 90% of all the emails that come into TFS, If you would like me answer any particular question about your combination, Just put my name in the subject line and I will be more than happy to answer anything you are unsure about......

fulo

Hi, everyone... I just began the process to take the heads apart. After a day taking the Eldelbrock T.E.S headers, the following day I perfomed compression test on the Driver side heads, pistons. (tomorrow I will do the passenger side).

For simplicity, I label the Combustion chamber (cylinders) from front to back (radiator to fire wall) A, B, C, D, I also performed a second test adding a squit of oil. The results were the following

Cyl. DRY SQUIRT OF OIL
(LBS) (LBS)

A 168 181
B 183 190
C 175 190
D 155 160

To give you a background... I ordered the short block form PAW.. the SEASON block is .030, and the rest of the components was new. I am using MOLY ringns. THe rings were supposed to be ready out of the box. So I just assamble them on the heads

Tomorrow, I will conduct the folowing set of heads, and take picture of the spark plug.

Any comments,

fulo

I finally took the heads out of the block, and I took some pictures of it.

What I have done is gathered all the information on a web site. I want to provide you all with as much information possible. I truly hope this web site helps. (It took me a long time taking the pictures). Please use the link below:

http://www.angelfire.com/amiga/micha...es_projecT.htm


I performed a compression test before dismantling the engine. (Results are posted on the web page)

1) I am trying to determine if the extreme oil consumption of my engine is due to the cylinder heads and/or my piston moly rings.

2)If the piston are also at fault, and taking in to account that the engine does not have more than 1000 miles on it, do I have the hone the block to put new rings?

3) I also notice that I have some pre detonation due to my high compression. I want to lower this from 10.25:1 to 9.50:1 by increasing the cylinder heads combustion are and/or using a thicker head gasket. Any comments here.

Thank you for you previous comments, and I am looking forward to some more.

Take care

Mike

Morley

I would bet it is from the moly rings. If you don't do the breakin just right they don't like to seat.
I would, just to be sure.
I would try for a thicker gasket, but you're trying to drop .75:1 CR, I don't know if just gaskets would do it. 10.25:1 with TFS heads should work, it will just take lots of tuning to get things just right.

fulo

I live in Davie, Florida.. does any body know a reputable machine shop were I can take my heads/short block???

Thanks

Mike

JAY87GTA

Where is Davie? I know of a few around the Winter Haven/ Lakeland area.

fulo

Well, gentlemen, the Block & Heads are on a machine shop. They told me that at first glance the block looks O.K. and that the pistons rings don't show anything out of the ordinary. But a more detail inspection is been conducted as we speak.

But I have a question that puzzles me.

I have been told that moly rings are not good for the street, that is better to go with cast? Any comments??

What about the Copper Head Gasket for the street? Are the reliable?

More to come later

Mike

laiky

Moly rings are great for the street, they seat quickly, seal well, control oil and are very durable. Better than CI. Chrome rings are very bad for the street, as well as lowtension rings that may not control oil or seal as well for a long period. Copper head gaskets may be usable for the street ( i think there big with mopar guys ) but for my money a good (fel-pro) composition head gasket will last longer, deal with imperfections better and not leak antifreeze as often

craiger

I agree with Laiky, I would also coat the head gasket with a light coat of oil. I have a friend who used to be into drag racing in the 60's and he really knows his stuff. He told me to coat the gasket with a light coat of oil because it makes a really tight seal and makes a sure tight seal.

88Bravo

That coat of oil, would that work with header gaskets??

It is a shame about these heads, I thought they were great buys. By the time I am ready there might be a new set out that fix all of the problems. Good luck.

craiger

The oil trick works with head gaskets not headder gaskets. Leave the headder gaskets dry!

88Bravo

Well I have also been told to soat them it water and let them swell. I think this guy may know what he is talking about, what do you think?

craiger

I would leave them dry! I've never heard of soaking them in water and they are easy enought to put on dry. You could do the water tick, but if it does not work, you will have to replace them. They are easy to put on and a PITA to replace and do a second time.

Morley

The soaking in water is for the old "paper" type gaskets. You should be using a metal laminate gasket.