Aftermarket Product ReviewProvide questions and answers about aftermarket parts for the Third Generation F-Body.
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Which one flow better? Lets compare a set of Pro 200s vs AFRs 195s, since thats what I was looking at. The flow #s for the larger Pro Actions, 220 and 230, that where in CHP didnt flow anywhere near what they advertised so I was wondering what their other heads where flowing compared to their advertised #s.
Thanks
Jeremy
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ye, I have been wondering the same thing for a while now also. I wonder if Mark Shields has gotten his installed and running yet so he could chime in with some quarter mile mph and et times.
My only issue with magazine flowing cylinder heads, is the simple fact that they make their money from advertisements from these same companies. And at the time, AFR was the one supplying the Pro Action heads, since they used to be a distributor...wonder why they stopped selling them, then all of a sudden these heads started gaining alot of popularity, especially with racers.
And since these companies knew that the magazine was going to flow test the heads, you wouldn't think they might make sure these heads they sent to them were just a "wee" bit better out of the box than a "normal" set?
Come on, I mean damn near every car company also makes sure the cars they had road tested by magazine had a "Hotter tune" and in most cases were blueprinted from top to bottom.
This was especially true in the muscle car era.
All I know is, there are two local shops here that stopped recommending the Dart's and AFR's and starting pushing the Pro Action's....The guy at one shop was porting a set of the Pro Action's for a local racer, and that was the first time he'd looked at these heads...3 months later, he was stocking them....
For an "out of the box" street / strip car, they recommend the Pro Actions. For heads that will receive some "massaging" at their shop, they recommend the Brodix or the Dart heads, simply because they have alot of meat to let 'em hog 'em out alot.
Just my 2 cents.
__________________
Chris
85 IROC - Rebuilt T5,TPI 350, Hedman headers, and few other mods. Possibly for sale, email or PM if interested, LOTS of MODS and EXTRA parts included......
'03 GMC Z71 5.3 POSI..... stock for now
I want to believe the results Pro Topline is advertising on there websites, but it seems to good to be true. I could actually afford to buy a set of their heads but I was hoping to here from somebody who is running on how they perform. Check out this ebay auction. It looks like they are getting into the vortec trend. The bowls on these look awesome.
Yes, I have them installed, no track times, maybe if it wouldn't rain every weekend.
The car hauls azz now. Cept for a slippng tranny now I couldn't be happier. I also installed hedman long tubes and Holley 650 DP.
The flow of the heads has had a great impact of the sound of the exhaust.
That sounds great Mark, Those long tubes probably had something to do with the sound also. I love the sound of long tubes, ecspecially opened up. Are you using a Y pipe somehow with them or running duals.
I have a set of the 200cc iron lightning heads. I have it together in the car, just need to finish a few things before I get it running. I will get dyno numbers as soon as I can probably in two weeks, going on vacation Thursday.
__________________ 1992 RS - ZZ4 short block, Pro Topline heads, comp XR276HR cam, Stealth ram with 58mm throttle body, T56, 4.10 gears.
Originally posted by JR305 I have a set of the 200cc iron lightning heads. I have it together in the car, just need to finish a few things before I get it running. I will get dyno numbers as soon as I can probably in two weeks, going on vacation Thursday.
Those ought to be some good numbers with that cam and intake if the flow numbers are what Pro Topline says they are. Are you gonna dyno tune it or just get it dynoed with your own tune on it?
Originally posted by jimmy_mac That sounds great Mark, Those long tubes probably had something to do with the sound also. I love the sound of long tubes, ecspecially opened up. Are you using a Y pipe somehow with them or running duals.
Hedman S extensions into pipes that feed into a flowmaster y collector that hooks to the Hooker cat-back.
Has anybody flowed their Pro Action heads? I can't seem to find any #'s anywhere other than the official website. But we all know that when a company advertises flow #'s for their own heads, the heads tend to flow quite a bit more than than what you see in independent tests. I know that the AFR's I've seen flow tested are usually 1-2% *cough* less from their advertised flow #'s on both exhaust and intake.
__________________ 2002 SOM ws6 M6, the 91 never was ressurected after the fire...
Old cars:
91 Z w/383 , all forged bottom end, miniram, TPIS ZZ-X cam, Ported AFR 210's, Pro-built trans, Vig 3200 stall, Hooker LT's, drag susp., 17x9 ROH Snypers, and quite a bit more. 375 rwhp 375 rwtq.
89 Iroc, SuperRam, 219 cam, AFR 190's, sold to the old man, now has 406, runs 11's.
Well, as long as the flow benches are calibrated and setup the same then there will be a 1-2% diff as long as it is on the same model bench. The test they did in CHP was a very wide test. They did just about everything from Darts to AFRs, from Vortecs to 245cc Proline heads. All the heads, just about, where in that 1-2% margin of difference. I have a felling I'm going to have to get a set to find out.
the machine shop flow tested them when they built them for me, and they gave me the numbers... i can not find them now... but all of the numbers were actualy about 1 or 2 cfm more, at every .100
__________________ 1988 Iroc-Z
350 bored .040 over, 9.72 Forged Pistons Ceremic coated/Moly coated, Comp Cams 280HR Cam, 1.6 Pro-Magnum RR's, Pro Action Iron Lighting 200cc Heads, Manley 2.02 /1.60 valves, Comp Cams 3/8" hardened push rods with guideplates, Melling Hi volume oil pump, WalBro GS340 Fuel Pump, Holley Stealth Ram Intake, ARP head-intake-rocker studs-header bolts, Flowtech Ceremic Coated Headers, Custom Off-road y-pipe, 3" into a 40 Series Flowmaster, MSD 8.5MM Super Conductor plug wires, MSD blaster 2 GM coil, Ed Wright Custom Chip, 30lb SVO injectors, B&M 2100 Stall, B&M S/S 700R4, and the never over looked K&N
Are you gonna dyno tune it or just get it dynoed with your own tune on it?
I have an ed write custom and I will probably make some modifications after I get the car running.
With the flow numbers, I did not get mine flowed but the castings looked great out of the box. From all the searching I did before I bought these heads I found that almost everyone who bought them were very happy with them. But I have yet to see any dyno numbers and very few flow numbers for them.
__________________ 1992 RS - ZZ4 short block, Pro Topline heads, comp XR276HR cam, Stealth ram with 58mm throttle body, T56, 4.10 gears.
Originally posted by IROC of 88 I have pro action iron 200cc....
the machine shop flow tested them when they built them for me, and they gave me the numbers... i can not find them now... but all of the numbers were actualy about 1 or 2 cfm more, at every .100
I have a set of the 200cc iron lightning heads. I have it together in the car, just need to finish a few things before I get it running. I will get dyno numbers as soon as I can probably in two weeks, going on vacation Thursday.
How did the HSR ports line up with the Lightning heads? Do the 200cc's use a standard sized gasket? Thanks.
I have the pro action 200cc and the HSR fits awesome.... although my accesory mounting brackets... for the 88 iroc... there needs to be another hole in the passanger side head. so my bracket is held on with 4 bolts instead of 5.... that was the only problem i found... and if you use the HSR you need felpro 1205 intake gasket
The guys at the shop I use recommend the Pro's over anything, and this guy's been in business for over 25 years. They've done several sets now and they say that they're awesome heads. Great power, good flow #'s, the whole nine yards. I just ordered my 200cc's in Wed. so i guess I'll be finding out for myself.
later, justin...
__________________ Jp Shawgo
1986 camaro - 10.5 outlaw/Outlaw 632
1989 lead sled still awating its transformation
- If you can't afford to do it right the first time, can you afford to do it again?
Iroc of 88- Your are only the second person that I have heard that got flow #s to what Pro Topline claims. Do a search on camaros.net and nastyz28.com and chevytalk.com, I have heard of more then 10 independent flow tests of these heads and all come up about 20+cfms short, sometimes more. I had a pair of 200cc Pros for enginekits.com until I sent them back cuase of problems with valve springs and when flow tested got 237/170cfms@.500 Lift.....I bet the large 2.08 intake valve actually hurt flow and they probably used less quality parts but I know of an engine shop owner on the chevytalk forums that flow tested a set assembled with Pro TOpline components and got 247/175cfms@.500 Lift with low lift #s off by 20+cfms.
I'm not saying they are bad, they are still damn good heads, I just don't believe they deserve to be in the category of AFRs. Whens the last time you heard of someone independtly flowing AFRs and not get within 2-5%? I usually hear of people getting better #s then advtersied with thier afrs....theres just too many bad flow #s from different independent tests out there to make me think they flow as well as they say.
Well, I have some 200cc Lightnings coming over on a boat. I talked to Pro directly overseas. They flowtest each batch before theyr'e shipped. They guarantee they're flow numbers that they advertise. Thats why most will flow slightly higher than advertised, otherwise they get sued.
To answer an earlier question, AFR used to be the dealer of Pro Action in N.America, Pro started outselling and outflowing the AFR's so they dumped Pro and went on there own.
---and now Shaver racing engines sells them and says they're the greatest head in the world for a small block chevy. - I'd have to agree. I've looked over a couple pair that two of my friends have. They're pretty awesome heads, even as-cast...
later, justin...
__________________ Jp Shawgo
1986 camaro - 10.5 outlaw/Outlaw 632
1989 lead sled still awating its transformation
- If you can't afford to do it right the first time, can you afford to do it again?
This is a very good topic. Look at the saving and you get better flow with these heads. I just bought a apair of 180cc and I will have the machine shop flow them before he does any porting and polishing on them.
Remember to compare apples to apples. If you're comparing a set of the Pro 220 cc heads to a set of AFR 220 cc heads, the AFR heads win by 30+ cfm. My AFR 195 heads flow equal to Pro's 220 heads. When going to a larger chamber to obtain high flow numbers, your streetability goes down. AFR is still the better cylinder head, but it is up to each person to decide if the price difference is too much to justify.
Well, with what I paid(in Canadian) for the Pro Actions, and what I would have paid for the AFR's. I'll keep my pro actions and use the rest of the difference to buy a supercharger.
AFR's here are well past $3000CAN, while I got my Pro Actions for $1200Can
Originally posted by Brad Remember to compare apples to apples. If you're comparing a set of the Pro 220 cc heads to a set of AFR 220 cc heads, the AFR heads win by 30+ cfm. My AFR 195 heads flow equal to Pro's 220 heads. When going to a larger chamber to obtain high flow numbers, your streetability goes down. AFR is still the better cylinder head, but it is up to each person to decide if the price difference is too much to justify.
We need that little smile for, "I'm with stupid" and an up arrow like on the vette forums. Anyway I agree.
__________________ 2002 SOM ws6 M6, the 91 never was ressurected after the fire...
Old cars:
91 Z w/383 , all forged bottom end, miniram, TPIS ZZ-X cam, Ported AFR 210's, Pro-built trans, Vig 3200 stall, Hooker LT's, drag susp., 17x9 ROH Snypers, and quite a bit more. 375 rwhp 375 rwtq.
89 Iroc, SuperRam, 219 cam, AFR 190's, sold to the old man, now has 406, runs 11's.
These numbers are from the manufacturers sites, I realize heads dont always flow as advertised, but Id say this is a fairly close apples-to-apples comparison for a good street head.
I am surprised nobody has brought up the fact that the Pro Action 200cc heads run bigger intake ports and 2.08/1.6 valves to keep up with the smaller intake runners and smaller valves that the AFR195's (and 190's for that matter) feature.
I thought the Pro 200s where adv. in the high 270s, or was that higher up in lift?
They flow 278 at .700, but I never heard of anyone running that much lift on the street.
The pro toplines should have 2.02/1.6 valves, what pro topline recommends. The ones from enginekits.com have the 2.08s. The flow numbers look pretty close and their is only a 5cc difference in the intake ports. But the real question is will they make similar power to the AFRs, I have never seen dyno numbers for any pro topline heads. Hopefully I can have my car running and in good tune in a few weeks and get it on a dyno. I did not flow my heads, but they looked great.
Originally posted by Cruz'N Bruz'R Well, with what I paid(in Canadian) for the Pro Actions, and what I would have paid for the AFR's. I'll keep my pro actions and use the rest of the difference to buy a supercharger.
AFR's here are well past $3000CAN, while I got my Pro Actions for $1200Can
Nope they ran me $2400 Canadian
190cc sbc ported, matched to my 1 3/4 headers and done to fit on the TPI intake but run the non centerbolt valve covers with the computer sensor crap drilled too. They also through in a set of the Alum AFR valve covers.
Still double your Pro Actions though.
Last edited by Hawk92z-TDZ; 05-30-2003 at 06:37 PM.
I am surprised nobody has brought up the fact that the Pro Action 200cc heads run bigger intake ports and 2.08/1.6 valves to keep up with the smaller intake runners and smaller valves that the AFR195's (and 190's for that matter) feature.
The flow specs I listed above were with a 2.02/1.6 valve. Yes, the ProActions do have a slightly larger port volume, but they do also flow slightly better up until .500 lift. If anyone cares, the AFRs do flow a little better on the exhaust side, roughly 5cfm more throughout the lift range. Im not saying either is better, just the facts.
__________________ '86 IROC
1986 IROC-Z 406 TPI
399.6 RWHP / 436.1 RWTQ
*damn injectors running extremly lean*
Update: 11-18-02
30LB SVO's
NX 150 shot (200 jets just added)
cut-out behind y-pipe
15x10 cragar street stars
MT E.T. Streets 26x11.5x15
best ETA 12.3@126mph
no emissions equiptment
just need to get to a dyno now
Hey aziroc, I was expecting to see a webpage when I clicked on your link to see all the details on your awesome ride, but I only saw a pic Anyway what are your mods?
About the subject, the better exhaust ports make the AFR's the better choice all the way!
__________________ 2002 SOM ws6 M6, the 91 never was ressurected after the fire...
Old cars:
91 Z w/383 , all forged bottom end, miniram, TPIS ZZ-X cam, Ported AFR 210's, Pro-built trans, Vig 3200 stall, Hooker LT's, drag susp., 17x9 ROH Snypers, and quite a bit more. 375 rwhp 375 rwtq.
89 Iroc, SuperRam, 219 cam, AFR 190's, sold to the old man, now has 406, runs 11's.
I've still experienced and seen too many other people that have independently flow tested the Pros and gotten considerably less then what is advertised....Has anyone here ever, ever heard or seen anyone that has gotten considerable lower numbers from AFR? I sure haven't and thats because they flow damn near as well as they say and are probably the only company that can say that. Dart, Brodix, etc. all fluff their numbers a little bit and sometimes more....I wouldn't take anyone but AFRs 'claims' seriously. And from the 3-4 people that I have heard that got the numbers Pros claims(and more then 10 that got a lot less), most of em have had these heads sold to them by their engine builders and don't ever get actual flow sheets to show the #s, just word of mouth. If your engine builder is gonna sell you a pair of heads of course he is gonna say they flow as well as they say, it would be bad buisness to do anything else.
I know everyone wants to believe that these heads flow as well as AFRs for considerably less money but I don't think they do. And if you want Aluminum Pros assembled with components by Pro you pay i think 1,050 from Summit, and aluminum 195 AFRs can be had assembled by AFR for 1175(I emailed I think it was muscle car motors or something and that is the price theyt quoted me as assembled by AFR...they are right across the street from them and somehow get better deals then direct from AFR)...that extra 125 bucks brings a lot of reassurance that you are getting what you pay for.
if you search around you can get assembles aluminum pros for 860.... so where is that extra $315 now.... oh it must be in the 2 hp that the differance is
Originally posted by AllGoNoShow I've still experienced and seen too many other people that have independently flow tested the Pros and gotten considerably less then what is advertised....Has anyone here ever, ever heard or seen anyone that has gotten considerable lower numbers from AFR? I sure haven't and thats because they flow damn near as well as they say and are probably the only company that can say that. Dart, Brodix, etc. all fluff their numbers a little bit and sometimes more....I wouldn't take anyone but AFRs 'claims' seriously. And from the 3-4 people that I have heard that got the numbers Pros claims(and more then 10 that got a lot less), most of em have had these heads sold to them by their engine builders and don't ever get actual flow sheets to show the #s, just word of mouth. If your engine builder is gonna sell you a pair of heads of course he is gonna say they flow as well as they say, it would be bad buisness to do anything else.
I know everyone wants to believe that these heads flow as well as AFRs for considerably less money but I don't think they do. And if you want Aluminum Pros assembled with components by Pro you pay i think 1,050 from Summit, and aluminum 195 AFRs can be had assembled by AFR for 1175(I emailed I think it was muscle car motors or something and that is the price theyt quoted me as assembled by AFR...they are right across the street from them and somehow get better deals then direct from AFR)...that extra 125 bucks brings a lot of reassurance that you are getting what you pay for.
Well, considering they're "advertising" their flow numbers, all companies are expected to meet these standards they claim, by law. Or else it's called false advertising. If you know people, then why didn't they send them back. Pro told me they guarantee they're flow numbers, and will replace any units that don't match them.
It all comes down to this. People that own AFR's will say AFR, people that own Pro's will say Pro. Basically, Pro is a newer style head, that not many people have and are alot cheaper and are damn close to an AFR. So thats why i ordered a set.
Other manufacturers have fibbed on their flow tests for years and years without any lawsuits...there are just soo much variation in flow test methods and ways to manipulate flow data by a flow bench tester to prevent anyone filing a lawsuit...also since Pros are cast and not CNC'd there exists some irregularity between heads cuasing some to flow less and more then others.
I emailed a representative from Pro about what technique their flow tests for their heads used(any pipe on the exhaust, radius entry, bore diamter, etc.) and I got no response after trying more then a couple times. I emailed a couple more reps about the crappy flow #s I got and from what I've heard from others...again no response. I even checked to make sure that there email accounts were active and asked some dummy questions(ie- are your heads good?) on another email adress and magically they responded within a day. If they felt so strong about their #s then I would think they would defend themselves. It also strikes me as odd as how in an email one of Pros reps sent me he said Pros were the best flowing heads in the world...even if their flow #s were 100% true they would not be the best flowing cylinder heads in the world.
Theres one way to shut me up....aftfer you get your heads bring em to an independent engine shop(that u did not buy them from) and have em flow tested and post the results.
Why do I care what you think?
Why would you care what I think?
You have AFR's good for you, pat yourself on the back.
I, purchased a set of Pro's and have had conversations over the phone direct to Australia about they're flow numbers. They flow a set from each casting batch to guarantee flow characteristics.
So say what you want about them, you don't have them, you know people who do, big whoop. If they were really disappointed, they would have had the balls to do something.
Shut you up? Hell no, if you want that done, bring what you got to a track. NY ain't that far.
I'm trying to have an intelligent conversation/argument here, no real need for the attitude!
I don't have AFRs either(not enough $$$ for them!), if you read my first post in this thread I had Pro Actions 200cc from enginekits.com and had them flow tested and got alot less then what is claimed by Pro. I have since returned them to Powerhouse(enginekits.com)becuase of issues with the valve springs that were used.
The meaning of forums like these are to share opinions and experiences with other people, I am simple sharing mine, not trying to bash you personally at all so don't take it that way.
Originally posted by AllGoNoShow I'm trying to have an intelligent conversation/argument here, no real need for the attitude!
I don't have AFRs either(not enough $$$ for them!), if you read my first post in this thread I had Pro Actions 200cc from enginekits.com and had them flow tested and got alot less then what is claimed by Pro. I have since returned them to Powerhouse(enginekits.com)becuase of issues with the valve springs that were used.
The meaning of forums like these are to share opinions and experiences with other people, I am simple sharing mine, not trying to bash you personally at all so don't take it that way.
What # where you getting out of them and what did they claim? Did enginekits.com Build the head for you or did you buy it complete?
if your only stating your opinion, why do you continue to state it... you said it once, i think that was enough, and the shop where i had mine flowed, did not build, or sell me my heads.... only flow tested them.... i can not find the sheet, i have looked all over...
also powerhouse(enginekits.com) builds them with crappy springs and crappy valves,,,, that is what i have heard...
Corvette- If your gonna get Pros I wouldn't buy from enginekits.com. I had a lot of problems(I bought there complete heads for $675)...I only got 237/170@.500 Lift but as Iroc of 88 states the valves and springs were probably less then great quality...this probably resulted in slightly less #s but I know an engine shop owner that tested the 200cc heads as assembled by Pro and got 247/175@.500 Lift, so if your gonna get Pros I'd get them from Summit or somewhere that assembles them as Pro wanted.
Originally posted by AllGoNoShow Corvette- If your gonna get Pros I wouldn't buy from enginekits.com. I had a lot of problems(I bought there complete heads for $675)...I only got 237/170@.500 Lift but as Iroc of 88 states the valves and springs were probably less then great quality...this probably resulted in slightly less #s but I know an engine shop owner that tested the 200cc heads as assembled by Pro and got 247/175@.500 Lift, so if your gonna get Pros I'd get them from Summit or somewhere that assembles them as Pro wanted.
That is what I did. I got the k2 kit that is to be used with a roller cam. And they will be flow tested before any porting. I want to get to the bottom of this thing and I will post actual #..
I didn't mean to be rude. Sorry if I came off that way.
I did her some bad things about Powerhouse too, so I decided to buy from a local guy who deals with a company called Lane. The head N. American office for Pro is in San francisco, and that is where my heads are coming from. I will also be having them flow tested before they go on the car and I will post results.
Corvette0096 & Cruz'N Bruz'R - end all to tell all. You two got it figured out. Buy them straight from Pro, and test them. - One way or another, they're a good head, especially for the money. - I too have heard of problems w/ the powerhouse bought heads. For starters, why would you need a 2.08 valve in a 200cc head? Pointless... -
later, justin...
__________________ Jp Shawgo
1986 camaro - 10.5 outlaw/Outlaw 632
1989 lead sled still awating its transformation
- If you can't afford to do it right the first time, can you afford to do it again?
ProAction heads aren't CNC ported are they? I don't think they are and if they are not there is no way that every set will flow what the manufactuer claims. CNC porting is the only way to get airflow results within 1-2% of the adv. #'s at least from my experience w/ talking to different people. Yeah I know this sounds like the ads for AFR, but this isn't some hype it's the truth. Look at what heads were on the Engine Masters Challenge winner. AFR's. Even though they were ported 190's and there were other factors that contributed to with winner, that challenge says a lot about the quality of AFR's product.
__________________ 2002 SOM ws6 M6, the 91 never was ressurected after the fire...
Old cars:
91 Z w/383 , all forged bottom end, miniram, TPIS ZZ-X cam, Ported AFR 210's, Pro-built trans, Vig 3200 stall, Hooker LT's, drag susp., 17x9 ROH Snypers, and quite a bit more. 375 rwhp 375 rwtq.
89 Iroc, SuperRam, 219 cam, AFR 190's, sold to the old man, now has 406, runs 11's.
These numbers are from the manufacturers sites, I realize heads dont always flow as advertised, but Id say this is a fairly close apples-to-apples comparison for a good street head.
My flow rates were a little better then that anyways
Well, to me at least, when I see experienced, quality engine builders / machine shops STOP recommending one brand of heads and start recommending ANOTHER, that is CHEAPER, I think the results speak for themselves. And NO, their mark up / profit margin is not more on the Pro Topline's.
To me, the simple fact that AFR used to be the major distributor for the Pro Topline heads, and then all of a sudden they stopped? Maybe because a lower cost product was infringing on their higher priced heads?
I'm not knocking AFR's...I've used 'em, and been happy with 'em, although AFR has had their share of quality control issues as every company has had, so they aren't perfect.
But Pro Topline's DO offer a CNC version. And it's still cheaper than the AFR.
So if the NON CNC version even COMES CLOSE to the AFR, imagine what the CNC version will do.
Now if we're going by manufacturer flow numbers "claims"
Here's an interesting tidbit...
The 180cc intake runner Pro Lightning alum head has the following flow #'s vs. the AFR alum 195cc intake runner heads:
So YES...the AFR's outflow the SMALLER Chamber / cheaper Topline's on the exhaust side.
BTW, I Was rounding the Pro's #'s DOWN, I wonder if AFR rounded their #'s down or up, since they didn't give the exact #'s?
Again, everyone's mileage may vary.
After talking to more than a few engine builders, they all pretty much recommend the same...
If you don't want to spend a ton on porting / or DIY porting, the best out of the box head is the Pro Topline's.
Just my 2 cents.
YMMV.
Some assembly is required.
Not recommended for children under the age of 3.
HTH
__________________
Chris
85 IROC - Rebuilt T5,TPI 350, Hedman headers, and few other mods. Possibly for sale, email or PM if interested, LOTS of MODS and EXTRA parts included......
'03 GMC Z71 5.3 POSI..... stock for now
Im not saying either is better, just the facts. 
Anyway what are your mods? 
