Aftermarket Product ReviewProvide questions and answers about aftermarket parts for the Third Generation F-Body.
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Our street package 195's will also be impressive. They will flow more than our previous "Comp" package with better low and midlift numbers (more important than the peak gains in my book).
They will sell for $1400-$1450
Preliminary data shows the following flow curve for both 195 products...
All numbers tested on an SF600 with a 4.060 Bore. Exhaust #'s thru a 1.75" flowtube to simulate a header attached to the exhaust port.
Also guys I must throw in a small "disclaimer" for lack of a better word stating that these numbers are subject to minor revisions prior to actually shipping production parts, however these #'s should be either right on or extremely close. The key for us is trying to advertise what MOST parts leaving our door will flow....not the "best" ones that might come off a machine with brand new cutting tools etc....that is why the possibility exists that you may see a minor revision to the numbers in the future (in our catalog and website) if we feel it better represents a "production" part. We guarantee all of our flow numbers are within 3% of what we advertise, and we try to advertise what an average production part will flow....some of the the stuff leaving our door can flow a little more and some a little less, but the numbers we advertise should be extremely close to what you are receiving. Wolfplace (Mike Lewis) and other shops have seen time and time again that we ususally deliver on what we promise regarding flow data.
Hope this info gives you guys a little better feel of what lies ahead....
Thanks,
Tony Mamo
AFR Sales / Product Design
(818)890-0616 Ext. 109
they better be seriously bad *** to still be 1/2 again more $ than my pro's....
- I am interested to see the actual $ and the #'s once some one gets a set in their hands and tests them. Flow bench and track times.
they better be seriously bad *** to still be 1/2 again more $ than my pro's....
- I am interested to see the actual $ and the #'s once some one gets a set in their hands and tests them. Flow bench and track times.
I agree. I sold my protopline heads a month or so again and am looking for a different set. I considered getting the exact same head as I had before Pro 220cc iron head. They aren't supposed to release their new aluminun head till november. The rate I am going, I won't be ready to put the engine in the car till then anyway.
I am also looking at getting a set of used competition ported 195's, or these heads if they actually flow that much.
I agree, my 220cc Pro's flowed good, but the 195's flow just as good if not more with a smaller port, which would mean better velocity, and do it at .600 lift, not .700. I could get a set of 200's and have them ported. I am looking for something that flows 285+ on the intake side and around 200 on the exhaust. Thats about what my Pro's flowed and I know how much power the engine made with it.
I have seen several people on the boards 87_TA being one of them that ran the AFR 195's on a 406 with a similar cam and setup as mine and ran high 10's and made excese of 500hp.
I will be interested to see these new AFR heads and the new aluminum protoplines.
I just ordered a set of the new 195 eliminators on Friday....cost was the same as their old street heads.....but suppose to flow better than their old competition ported heads..
you'd better get in line. I called the other day to check up on my heads that I ordered in MARCH.
And the guy (Jason I think) told me that I wont be getting them for another 2 weeks. So I argued with him about why it takes that long to make heads, and he said they were changing all the designs of the heads.
So I argued some more with him... and he changed my order to these eliminators.
put your orders in, they switched completely over to making the new designs and will raise the price in a few weeks. Usually 6-8 weeks but towards september they are moving to another building. However they are planning on the time lost to moving to be compensated for 3 extra mills in the new location.
check out the new engine masters mag they have a decent write up on them.
they came into the shop a few weeks ago and gave us a seminar; needless to say i ordered mine last week.
FWIW here are the flow numbers from my new Lloyd Elliot TFS LT1 heads, they started bare and ended up with 918 springs (up to .625), ferrerea valves (2.05/1.6).. intake port under 210cc.
the cost was about 1900.00, they are very pretty in fact almost too pretty to bolt on... I thought a comparison to a hand ported head might be useful when looking at quality for dollar value.. though neither set of flow numbers is from an independent source..
__________________ 82 T/A LT1 everything old is new again.
355, studded mains, stock crank, 6in scat rods, Mahle pistons, OBD1 converted, delteq, LE Heads, pac1518s, pro-magnums, LE2 cam, stock lifters, LE intake, 52mm throttle body, Programmed by CAM, hedman lts, mufflex exhaust, LS1 (ebmiller) brakes, 02 M/C, eibach sportline front and pro rear springs, jegs subframes and torque arm, hotchis lcas, spohn panhard, bmr upper panhard, TDS swaybars/wonderbar, inland empire driveshaft, pst bushings, bilsteins...
Has anyone got their heads yet? I am really interested in getting a set. If i could find a set of ported 195 used I'd go with them too. I talked with trick flow a while back and they recomended their 215 R head for my 406. I looked at their flow numbers and the ported 195's flow the same or a little better. I am at the point I am wondering about port velocity vs. runnner size to phyisically move more air. what I am asking is, is 300cfm on a ported 195cc the same or better compared to a 215cc? I know there is a long debate on this. I am going to use the search button now.
__________________ Wide Open Till You See GOD ...Then Brake
If You Are Upside Down And on Fire....Its To Fast
Still dreaming of the solid roller 406 for
the 89'
check out my post on the "Vendor Review" board. i order a set of the Eliminators back in June and am still told to not expect them till December. here is a link to the post. Jegs - AFR Heads - Backorder for 6 months?
Well I think track times from users would be in order. From what the dyno shops are saying all the manufacturers are doing things to improve their heads and advertising numbers dont show squat.
from what i been reading these heads will be pretty bad *** heads. flow numbers are incredible for a 195cc 23 degree head.
i do believe 87 TA on this board has the older 195cc competition heads. i know he has AFR's but not sure if its the regular or comp ported. no other changes except probly springs for the big cam he has got. pretty much full weight trans am and it goes high 10s. i've seen it several times. one bad 406. these heads are gonna be awesome.
from what i been reading these heads will be pretty bad *** heads. flow numbers are incredible for a 195cc 23 degree head.
i do believe 87 TA on this board has the older 195cc competition heads. i know he has AFR's but not sure if its the regular or comp ported. no other changes except probly springs for the big cam he has got. pretty much full weight trans am and it goes high 10s. i've seen it several times. one bad 406. these heads are gonna be awesome.
yeah, i bought some SLP headers from him and tried to buy the heads but he wouldn't sell them. My combo will be really close to his. He has a little more gear and a little more cam. If he can hit low 10's, I hope to hit low 11's.
All numbers tested on an SF600 with a 4.060 Bore. Exhaust #'s thru a 1.75" flowtube to simulate a header attached to the exhaust port.
Also guys I must throw in a small "disclaimer" for lack of a better word stating that these numbers are subject to minor revisions prior to actually shipping production parts, however these #'s should be either right on or extremely close. The key for us is trying to advertise what MOST parts leaving our door will flow....not the "best" ones that might come off a machine with brand new cutting tools etc....that is why the possibility exists that you may see a minor revision to the numbers in the future (in our catalog and website) if we feel it better represents a "production" part. We guarantee all of our flow numbers are within 3% of what we advertise, and we try to advertise what an average production part will flow....some of the the stuff leaving our door can flow a little more and some a little less, but the numbers we advertise should be extremely close to what you are receiving. Wolfplace (Mike Lewis) and other shops have seen time and time again that we ususally deliver on what we promise regarding flow data.
Hope this info gives you guys a little better feel of what lies ahead....
Thanks,
Tony Mamo
AFR Sales / Product Design
(818)890-0616 Ext. 109
That 4.060 bore size really helps boost the flow artificially by un shrowding the valves to enhance the flow numbers. I have nothing against AFR, I run their heads and will again. I would want to see the flow numbers on a .010-.030 over bore size. That extra clearance do make a difference.
That 4.060 bore size really helps boost the flow artificially by un shrowding the valves to enhance the flow numbers. I have nothing against AFR, I run their heads and will again. I would want to see the flow numbers on a .010-.030 over bore size. That extra clearance do make a difference.
I've got a 4.060 bore size, works for me.
__________________ 389 CID Vortec TPI Engine, 428 HP, 507 TQ. Wheeler Vortec Heads, KB, Comp Cams, Crane, Eagle, SLP, Accel, Fluidamper, Vigilante, TCI, Spohn, Lakewood, Hedman, Flowmaster, Random Technologies, Be-Cool, Granatelli, Goodyear, Bosch, SDPC Intake, Texas Speed, Custom Chip and Ford Motorsport (30 lb Fuel Injectors).
11.894@114.3 mph.
Sacrificed to the God of Speed: (2) 700R4's, 3 TC's, 3 sets u-joints, one driveshaft, one camshaft, one bent rod, 3 blown head gaskets and two blown motors.
Sorry I was in a hurry when I posted the numbers. I frequent the 2nd gen camaro site and these were posted by brian at www.ADperformance.com. He says they have some in stock waiting for orders. My understanding was these were given to him by AFR but they aren't on their site. You can read the thread at NEW AFR ELIMINATOR Heads flow sheet?? - NastyZ28.com if interested.
i just called ADperformance and spoke to brian. he also told me that they have these heads in stock, i placed an order with him and he also said he would price match jegs, which was $100 cheaper. so i gave him a credit card number and he said that they would be on their shipping list tomorrow, and i will recieve a tracking number by email. he also is going to "put his hands on them" to make sure he has the specific heads i wanted in stock the 1038's. and if anything is not accurate with what we discussed on the phone he will give me a call back within the hour
Wow AFR has some of the best marketing I have ever seen. Still track times would be more impressive because flow numbers are so highly exagerated and blown out of proportion.
I just got off the phone with AFR. I called for a recomendation for my engine setup. the tech I talked to, I think his name was chris, recomended the comp ported 195's for my application. He said they have a 383 with the same cam as mine, and a little less compression with the non ported 195's that made 520 or 540hp at 6100rpm. Thats with a dual plane intake and a 750, and 1 3/4. that is sick. and I know that has to be 100% streetable. He said with the 15cfm more I should be able to use with a 406. He said they would cost right at 2000, and they are 10 weeks back ordered. Thats just nuts.
__________________ Wide Open Till You See GOD ...Then Brake
If You Are Upside Down And on Fire....Its To Fast
Still dreaming of the solid roller 406 for
the 89'
Wow for $2000 you could just about get any head to make that power or even more. Ive seen Sportman IIs with less money in them make more power with a .525 lift cam.
It's essentially AFR's only published dyno test back from the new heads. If you're looking for bang for the buck I wouldn't suggest a comp head - the "Race Ready" version will provide 95% of the performance for about $500 less. For a heavy application, low gears, auto, ect. a 195 would be fine. For a lighter, more agressive combo a 210 would work well.
A note on both the comp and the new 210's - They're both currently not in production so if time is a concern I wouldn't consider either a viable option.
We've received new 180's and 195's already - They do exist and are available. However, AFR had some machinery breakdown and it's delayed the heads we expected over the past week or so. Our expected "rush" of deliveries (we had 20+ 195 sets ordered in Febuary!) has been slowed to a trickle. Other dealers are in the same boat so unfortunately things are a bit slower than expected for the Eliminators.
Quickstyle - I'll be in touch. Thank you for the opportunity.
Jrobin9 - The flow figures are provided by AFR. They're on AFR's bench and are presumably flowed with the same specifications, 1 3/4" pipe and a 4.060 (or possibly even 4.125) bore. Obviously the bore size is going to help the flow figures to a certain extent.
The bottom line is that the same head (AFR 195 vs. New 195), comparing an arguably already top of the heap head, is up 24 cfm along with a lighter valvetrain, better hardware, and an improved casting. Track times and performance ARE going to be better, it'll just take a bit to get them out to customers and on combo's making the power.
If you guys have more specific questions I'll do my best to get them answered.
I am seriously considering Trick Flow. I talked to Artie a while back and I am borderline on the CNC 23 degree Dutwieler(sp)head or their 215R. With talking to them and readin on the boards the trick flows are comparable. I am looking to buy a set of heads at the end of october. For the price, and the availibilty, the trick flows look better each day I think about it. At a minimum, I think the trick flow's are comprable. For 500 bucks less am I going to miss 15hp in a car that won't hook anyway. Prolly not. I wish I could find some flow numbers for the CNC 23 degree heads and the 215's.
__________________ Wide Open Till You See GOD ...Then Brake
If You Are Upside Down And on Fire....Its To Fast
Still dreaming of the solid roller 406 for
the 89'
I am seriously considering Trick Flow. I talked to Artie a while back and I am borderline on the CNC 23 degree Dutwieler(sp)head or their 215R. With talking to them and readin on the boards the trick flows are comparable. I am looking to buy a set of heads at the end of october. For the price, and the availibilty, the trick flows look better each day I think about it. At a minimum, I think the trick flow's are comprable. For 500 bucks less am I going to miss 15hp in a car that won't hook anyway. Prolly not. I wish I could find some flow numbers for the CNC 23 degree heads and the 215's.
If you're comapring a 215 to a 195 it's apples and oranges... the runner size is 20cc's larger.
Even with a 20cc larger runner they still don't flow as well at .600. They're close on the intake but down 17 cfm on the exhaust and are still a larger head. For a street car .700 figures are meaningless.
Also the CNC chamber TFS's are ~$1300, the price isn't much different. They do have availability though, definitely better there.
We're also a Trick Flow dealer but comparing their SBC offerings to the new AFR's isn't even close. Everyone has their preference, and you can make power with Trick Flows, but comparing the two heads, specifically on paper, makes it a pretty clear choice.
Flow numbers from manufacturers can be either up or down so their is always room for improvement. You could clean up the ports on either head and they may end up running dead even. I know guys who got AFR heads to have them independtly flowed and be way down on flow. Not saying every single head will do this but their is always a %25 margin for error.
Quote:
The casting also isn't as nice, and the valvetrain is significantly heavier.
The Trickflows look pretty enough for me. Heads can be bought bare and have whatever parts you want put in.
Flow numbers from manufacturers can be either up or down so their is always room for improvement. You could clean up the ports on either head and they may end up running dead even. I know guys who got AFR heads to have them independtly flowed and be way down on flow. Not saying every single head will do this but their is always a %25 margin for error.
The Trickflows look pretty enough for me. Heads can be bought bare and have whatever parts you want put in.
Out of all the manufactures we deal with the AFR's tend to be some of the closest on the actual flow numbers. 2% is a standard variance, not 25% - That is simply not acceptable. 30 cfm is a lot anyway that you slice it...
If you're looking for visuals any of the heads are "pretty" but that has nothing to do with the quality of material, quality of workmanship or design of the cylinder heads. The AFR casting is a stronger casting witha 3/4" deck surface.
As for the valvetrain... It's different sizing. Lightweight 8mm vs. standard weight components. Yes, you could make it work but the expense is going to make it prohibative. This isn't even a comaprision between the two.
As for the valvetrain... It's different sizing. Lightweight 8mm vs. standard weight components. Yes, you could make it work but the expense is going to make it prohibative. This isn't even a comaprision between the two.
Is this new valve train patented strictly to AFR?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScatStroker
Out of all the manufactures we deal with the AFR's tend to be some of the closest on the actual flow numbers. 2% is a standard variance, not 25% - That is simply not acceptable. 30 cfm is a lot anyway that you slice it...
Every dyno shop seems to think differently about this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScatStroker
If you're looking for visuals any of the heads are "pretty" but that has nothing to do with the quality of material, quality of workmanship or design of the cylinder heads. The AFR casting is a stronger casting witha 3/4" deck surface
I guess if you shave your heads alot this may be important to you.
Every dyno shop seems to think differently about this.
I guess if you shave your heads alot this may be important to you.
The valvetrain is an LS1 style valvetrain. The point is that it's superior and is unlike the TFS heads. If it was easily done and inexpensive it would have been done frequently before this, it isn't.
Every dyno shop thinks differently about what? There isn't 1 single shop that has an AFR head with a 25% variance out of the box. Think about what you're saying - a 286 cfm advertised head actually flows 214 cfm, a 70 cfm difference. If they're using the same conditions they do NOT have that variance.
It has little to do with shaving your head, it has to do with keeping head gaskets in the engine and a more solid surface. While a NA 300hp engine might not see a big difference its important to the boosted, nitrous and high hp motors.
I think you're missing the point - For an out of the box cylinder head they're not comparable. You can change, machine and modify anything if your wallet is deep enough. Claiming that AFR has a 25% variance in flow is flat out wrong. Changing the heads to an 8mm valvetrain isn't something regularly done, it's expensive (how many people have ACTUALLY done this here?) The castings are superior, whether or not that's important to you is your choice but its icing on the cake of an already superior product.
I am just asking questions so dont take it to heart. I understand that AFR is the first but will they be the last that uses this drivetrain is all. Do a simple search through some message boards will reveal dyno shops that thought differently. Im pretty sure most heads are doing a fine job holding gaskets since lots of people use heads other than AFRs and arent having problems. I havent seen any big writeups about different heads that blow head gaskets often.
The valvetrain is the same as a factory LS1 (Ls2, Ls6) and is pretty well proven. With the exception of the cost its a superior valvetrain, specifically for a hyd. roller.
Dyno shops don't flow heads so I'm still not clear what you're getting at. I am certain that the heads have never been flowed at 25% lower than advertised, if that were the case the heads wouldn't have any reputation at all. As it is AFR's reputation for quality and performance is very high, their delivery is what has caused people to be upset. The price for quality I suppose, try ordering a billet crankshaft sometime.
Look at the big boost engines, keeping head gaskets is problem if you're creating enough pressure. If you have a thicker, and more stable deck, its going to help the problem. While this may not be important for your specific application, it is important to some people and the bottom line is that the casting is heavier duty and better designed - If you're buying a head why wouldn't you want a higher quality piece?
Ok sounds good. I wasnt questioning the LS valvetrain. If you do a search their was a long thread about used LS valves on stock chevy heads. I understand dyno shops dont flow numbers but they do give a pretty good idea of how well a head performs under real life conditions. I realize the benefit of the thicker deck but has it been proven that the thinner head decks of the other manufacturer were a direct cause to blow head gaskets?
People dyno'ing motors run the spectrum of performance... Some combo's are setup correctly and some aren't. Simply because a combo doesn't achieve the "expected" numbers doesn't mean its one specific parts fault. We have what appears to be very similar combo's on paper make 50hp variances very easily, attention to detail, the way things line up, the tune, the dyno, ect. all contribute to a variance. AFR doesn't advertise power numbers, they advertise flow figures and, in my experience, have been pretty accurate in doing so. There are a lot of people making great power with their heads, as there are people making good power with a number of other products.
Used anything leaves a huge question mark... Using stock used valves in a performance application they weren't designed for scares me just hearing about it. I think the Ls1 world has proven AFR's hardware to be very reliable. We don't use stock valvetrain components and I do not know one way or another how they've performed.
Again, if you have the option to buy a better quality casting why wouldn't you? Its another benefit to the thicker head deck, whether or not it benefits you just depends. If I had a high boost or cylinder pressure application I'd take anything that I felt would help the sealing... blowing head gaskets isn't fun. Its a matter of opinion and, frankly, icing on the cake - the out of the box performance and the lightweight valvetrain is the real draw.
Can I ask real quick how the new AFR heads have LS type valvetrains? This is the first I have heard about it. Also, Scat, you said the street version for the 195 would be enough for my application? So how long is the wait for these heads? Is it really 6 months? That is ridiculous. Period.
__________________ Wide Open Till You See GOD ...Then Brake
If You Are Upside Down And on Fire....Its To Fast
Still dreaming of the solid roller 406 for
the 89'
The new AFR's have 8mm valves, ls1 style small diameter springs, smaller retainers and matching retainers - All hardware that the LS1 heads have. It's smaller in size and lighter weight.
If you ordered them from AFR you'd probably wait 3 months. I checked on our allocation yesterday and we're supposed to have an additional 7 sets finished this week at AFR. We have roughly 100 sets of heads already on order, if I don't have it on the shelf we'll at least be able to get it to you faster. HD4mula ordered the last set of my 180's but his shipped immediately, no wait, which is what we'd like to be able to provide for you guys.
Brian
ADP
Last edited by ScatStroker; 09-23-2006 at 08:35 PM.
brian,
i just went a re-read the engine masters article that details the eliminator heads. on the last page, it shows a picture of the springs that will be used on the eliminators. they arent beehive. nor did i see anything entioned about beehive springs in the article.
so my question to you is are you misinformed about the springs used or did afr change its mind about what springs would be used?
I ordered my 195's back on July 14th...my ship date was suppose to be Sept. 22nd..and still have not received them...I talked to Jason and he told me another 2 weeks or so...because of the move and that part on the machine that needed replacing...I told him to take their time...I want performance and quality..didnt want them to rush to get my heads out and screw them up somehow..I got the 195 L98 street heads with the rev kit and the upgraded rocker studs cause Im using 3/8th pro magnum rockers
thats all im waiting on then I can finish up the motor and drop it in...and then the nightmare of hooking everything back up and finding a tune for it.
While I'm stoked theses heads are now on the market something seems a little funky about the site... on the afr write up it says pick from 75 or 65cc combustion chambers but the where you enter your order it says 68cc or 74cc combustion chambers.
But I just about had to change my pants when I heard these things are now available to the public.
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when I ordered mine Jason said the new heads are standard 65cc and if you wanted 68 or anthing else they would have to get a 74 head and mill them down to the wanted cc and would be charged the milling fee of 100$...So I got the 65cc heads...they dont offer the 68 heads in the new config...as a standard head...I may be wrong but thats waht jason told me...
thier site is not updated with the new head config cause if you notice it still says 2.020 intake but the new ones come 2.050
14psi, pump gas street tune 
I'm a very happy man now 
56
. Heads can be bought bare and have whatever parts you want put in. 
