customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

i dont like this thread very much lol but i have read it all and i am surprised.... i had bought the patriot 195cc heads about a year ago... paid 890 shipped. the heads were the 195cc ported heads, with partly CNC combustion chambers, 2.02/1.6 stainless backcut valves, 5 angle valve job, 3/8 screw in studs with guidplates, vitton seals, and dual valve springs good for .600 lift hydraulic roller cam. when i recieved the heads i port matched them to felpro 1206's since thats what they use and then portmatched the HSR to the felpro 1206. i never took the valves out but the porting that was done on the intake side was good ( i just went in with a carbide bit and smoothed sum things out/and small casting flash). the exhaust was just a mild blend behind the exhaust side(went in and polished the exhaust runner tho). from wat i saw they where suppose to be decent heads and for 890$ for a.600 lift head im not gona complain... not making an all out race car its gona be a reliably DD, i got the heads from skips white who has done there own flow bench testing and they state 260cfm at .5 lift and 270cfm at .6 lift.

INTAKE: 400L/223 500L/252 600L/263 700L/270 750L/272

EXHAUST: 400L/170 500L/183 600L/184 650L/185

this is goin on my 383 im building, scat 383 with 9.8 comp, ported and portmatched 1206 HSR, 58mm TB, 30lb SVO injectors, patriot heads stated above, comp cams XFI 280 cam. 230/236 .571/.576 112 lobe (i believe) new lifters, 1.6 procomp extruded rockers, complete exhaust in my sig... its 1 5/8 headman LTs true dual 3" mandrel into 3" xpipe with 3" turndowns. tuning will be custom as well as the use of RAM air and a adjustable grannelli maf. trans is a built 700r4 and will have about 2400-2500 stall with stock 3.27 gears... eventually go with 12bolt and 3.73 but ive been told id be making 470-480 hp at the crank and around 360 at the wheels. but now u have me worried bout the heads...

heres the site i got them from, skips white performance.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PATRI...mZ260282314850


engine is

lt1z350

iTrader: (2)

I did put up number comparisons. on a l98 vette the pats made 22 more hp than the stock l98 heads and afr 195s made 60 more. On a old 69 vette that had fuelies that were ported the car ran 112 and he tore up the heads and replaced them with pats 195 series and it slowed down to 110 mph. Retuned the car tried timing and jetting and that was it for them.As for the skip white ones I was reading a chevelle forum and nothing but problems with heads from him. Alot of un happy people over there and even a set with core shift that the intake wouldnt bolt up. Repalced the set but still not happy with performance. The point is for the money it isnt a good deal when you can get way better heads for not much more. both afr heads or fast burns are a few months of savings form most and you will get way more. One thing I can say is that you atleast got your own hardware as the complete sets come with total junk for springs and valves. I have heard of tips comming of the valves of them and proform head as both use chinsses stuff. Springs that die after a few months of running them. One thing I would never do is spray or run boost to them as the decks are thin. Been known to have head gasket problems with them. I paid 1500 to my door for afr eliminator heads that came with a flow sheet and they flow more than the freedom series best head at 400 lift compared to 600. Really kill them down low and at 550 almost 300 cfm. right where it will be used not like some heads that rate them up to 700 lift to get to 280 cfm. And not to mention fast burns that if shopped correctly can be had for 1100 and at 600 flow 275 and have killer hardware. Light weight valves that are free horsepower and dont beat up springs like heavy cheap ss valves. SO much more can be had for just a little more money. They are not total crap just not worth the money for what you get. I dont like knocking anyones cars I also like to try to help others keep from making mistakes I have seen happen and more bad stories exist for these type heads then good ones by far. You are one of the luck ones so far and not to say you wont have problems down the road like threads pulling out of the heads at the rockers ( read that too) ripped the studs right out with less than 650 lift and 400 open spring pressure. Just one more bad story I have read. dont see these stories with afr, edelbrock, tfs and so on. These flaws didnt ever happen until the chineese started making heads and blending aluminium for them.

Fast 383

iTrader: (2)

lt1z350, what you are posting is so on point its crazy. All the problems you hear with heads these days are the immitation chineese attempts at alluminum heads. People read AFR owners opinions and all think the same thing, there are other heads out there that are good too.
Well thats true. But for the money, this is just one of those things you should take our word for.

bart91406

I have drove this car to work for most of the summer and have had no reliability issues, but I can not be 100 % sure of quality until I get quite a few more passes on these. I have heard of different problems with all sorts of different heads though. I would probably agree that afr is the way to go, but a lot of people run dart iron eagle or pro 1s, and I would say that considering these are cheaper than an iron set of darts, patriots are the way to go. There is even a person on thirdgen.org who posted his car went FASTER with these heads than darts. So I can agree that afr is the way to go, but not that these are a bad buy when compared to most other aftermarket brands.

19doug90

as much as flow numbers arent the be all and end all, they certainly do matter, more cfm means you can put more fuel in. Sure the patriots would do worse then the vortecs if you were only using .45 lift, the patriots have the same flow there and a larger runner. The difference is .6 lift, i wouldnt put the patriots on a truck but a good sized cam with a lot of lift and youre talking a good 100 hp

EDIT : wow didnt notice this was 3 pages long and not 1, disregard if im way out of the conversation lmao

Batass

There are better iron heads for the same price. Are you going to notice the weight savings in aluminum? No, but you will probably notice 15hp.

If you had good know how of DIY porting, then I think they would be worth it.

bart91406

Iron heads may retain more heat, but car craft tested the iron vs. alum. head with two identical heads (dart platinums) that had very similar flow. with the same compression if there was any little power difference than it was for the alum. heads.
If you can find a cheaper well flowing head than by all means let us know, I have never seen any ,but am always looking for a good deal!

Batass

I'm using a set of 200cc EQ heads. Rated 262 cfm at .600. Shaver racing flowed them at 265. I paid 600 for them bare from a local mostly circle track shop. I've seen them as low as 250 a peice. They don't have the low lift flow like AFR's but....

They also offer aluminum but they cost a good bit more.

These heads have some sort of relationship with RHS, but I dont know how.

bart91406

Some people may not notice the weight savings with aluminum heads, but I have seen way to many people tear out there interiors of 12 second cars to save weight to think it is not a big deal. This is weight off of the nose of the, where it is important. That is a good price for a set of eq heads, with those flow numbers. You might fill us in with anymore info. Are those remanufactured dart ss heads as I thought they were? How is the combustion chamber design?Do you have the flow chart for low lift flow?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

my AFR's were just over 50lbs lighter than stock Irons L98's. thats a great weight savings. that wil translate into half tenth on average at the track.

I lost .15 with a 170lb kid in my car. so thats .05 per 50 lbs.

Doesnt seem like much but when you add up other gains like ministarter, aluminum waterpump, etc. things could add up to 100+ lbs weight loss. The more weight you can lose the better!!!

I wouldnt worry about the patriot heads you have. They should be good enough to get you 360whp atleast. your compression is low, i'd like to see closer to 10.5-11 to 1 but your setup shall do fine! I made 400whp with a similar setup using AFR's. You'll probly be around 370-375whp. Good launch thats 11.6's at 115-116

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

This doesnt seem too impressive but we need more info. Car weight, gearing, weather conditions, altitude, etc. That car may run much much faster at a different track due to weather/altitude changes

For what its worth, my 383 so far with 230 degree/.603 lift on the intake cam and AFR195 eliminators at 11 to 1 and small 3.42 gears, has gone 11.4's-11.5's at 118.5 with a best of 119.1. 1200 ft altitude with temps in the high 70's low low 80's and abit humid. Density altitude was between 2500-3000 ft. Dyno'd 400whp in hot air. Come another month when the air is 50-60 at night with a DA of 1500 or so, this car will be 11.3's for sure if traction remains and probly hit 120-121. My L98 was doing 13.3-13.4's at 99 in 2800ft DA 70's degree air, but went 12.9's at 103.8 in winter 49 degree air/188ft DA

this seems almost too good to be true Thats much faster than most combos, especially being TPI to boot. I got bigger cam/bigger AFR heads, about same raceweight, HSR thats mildly ported and i run 118-119mph. What was weather/altitude conditions on those runs? any dyno numbers? thats impressive

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

thanks Orr89RocZ... ive been following your setup closely... we have very simular combos. im running 9.8 bc i dont want to have too many problems running pump gas the cheaper the better and i would hope esp with the aluminum heads being able to dissapate heat faster and avoid knock. i would be able to keep the comp down but not too low like 9.1:1 so its not a dog and be able to run regular/midgrade since premium is a good 20cents more.

as far as heads go... we all kno that AFR's are probably the best head on the market hands down. but its all about budgeting ur money and making the the most hp per dollar... if i can get 370hp at the wheels that puts be at about 490 at the crank with 24%drive train loss. i spent 800 on the heads and 500 on the HSR totaling 1300$... thats 2.65hp per dollar... now on the same engine with AFR 195 heads thats 1400$ and with out the HSR i wouldnt be making nearly the same HP with the TPI... inorder to make more i would have to spend the extra 500 for the HSR totalling 1900 and then i would be making more than the HSR/patriot combo... but the diff is that it costs more to make equal to more hp with the AFR's bc they are so expensive. HP per dollar value i would rather the patriots/hsr and still be under 100$ vs just being able to afford the AFR's and not maximize the hp of the heads without spending more $$. still tho the AFRs are great but for most ppl not economical as far as HP per dollar. then again ive seen a STOCK truck 350 with iron STOCK heads and a STOCK TPI with tuning and twin buick t-type turbos make 695rwhp!!! and thats prob still under the $1500 for the AFRs. its all about HPperDOLLAR

"My stock ported(done by me) l98 113 heads took my 92 formula with a 383 stock gear, 700 r4, small cam comp 224 230 530 540 lift with stock upper and lower intake I ported with slp runners to 11.7@ 118 and a best of 119 mph"

yea i dont see how u can make that much either with the stock TPI heads. yes u can port them and gain like 30hp or so and u obviously had to have a spring upgrade to handle that .530/.540 lift... not to mention a custom tune to handle that cam which is alot of duration for the TPI... with ported stock intake with slp runners... theres sumthing fishy about this. ud have to be making about 480hp at the crank with sum gears to achieve that... the TPI will be outa its powerband with anything higher than 3.42's in the quarter.. unless the TPI is highly modified, hogged out, and fully siamesed etc. but i still dont see how the stock ported heads and flow enough CFM to support 480hp when u state that the AFR;s only made 60hp over the stock L98 heads... so this would mean that your ported stockers flow more than the AFRs or really close...

im just saying these numbers are also too good to be true esp with ported stock L98 heads as Orr89RocZ sated... no way hes making that HP with stock ported heads and a ported Stock TPI/slp runners... just cant support that HP and RPM needed with out major mods and better heads

bart91406

I would not say my combo is really impressive, I posted my numbers not to impress but to show that these heads are not boat anchors as some people feel they are. The car is stock weight with all interior, it has 4.10 gears and a 4000 stall. My best run was 11.58 but with a bit of traction problems, I also have not yet had a chance to do any tuning because of traction problems, I believe that I can get somewhere in the low 11s with traction and a good tune-up.It sounds like our cars would be similar at the track but yours has a little less cam duration and 3.42 gears, but it sounds like you have a roller cam and you have afrs. This pretty much proves my point,I would guess that your motor was a bit more expensive to build, but runs as good with more streetable cam and gears.So neither combo is right or wrong, it just depends on how fast you want to go, how much you want to spend, and how streetable you need it to be.With my patriot heads and flat tappet cam I run good for a small investment, I would run better with afrs and a roller cam, but my combo sounds agressive, runs as fast as the tech guys allow, and is streetable enough for me. So why would I need to spend another 500$ for afrs.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Just curious as to your times. ET's get thrown around alot on the net without any other info given like weight/gears and weather/altitude. Some of the bigger factors. One number gets posted and it may not seem like much, yet that car did that ET at a high altitude hot air track. Hard to judge the combo without all the info known

Thats all i'm saying. I wasnt suggesting one combo is right or wrong, i just wanted to clarify your combination's ET numbers because we cant call it unimpressive unless we know the conditions the runs were made in.

Your right tho, i think these heads will do fine for most builds. If they flow near 260cfm thats plenty to make alot of power. Most intake manifolds we use only flow around that much anyway.

bart91406

The main reason I continue to post on this thread is there is some members that seem to know a good deal about performance engines would tell you that these heads are an unwise buy.I disagree and have tried to give educated reasons whyI feel that they are a good bang for the buck.My reasons are not just opinion but based on my experience with these heads. I am happy to see that you would agree with me because you seem to know what you are talking about as well.

Batass

CC200BA
200 cc intake runner / 64 cc combustion chamber

Intake Lift CFM Exhaust Lift CFM 28"


0.1 65.5 0.1 74.8
0.2 137.2 0.2 113.3
0.3 185.7 0.3 146.9
0.4 225 0.4 170.2
0.5 252.5 0.5 181.7
0.6 265.4 0.6 187.8
0.7 272.2 0.7 189.5

These heads are popular in the circle track community and a very similar engine to mine but with 12.5 cr instead of 9.5 made 510hp. That was built by David Vizard.

bart91406

That seems like a pretty good set of heads, I am not sure that I would pay more for them than than aluminum patriots, but you should run just fine with them.

stinger32

iTrader: (1)

Its not funny to read a thread like this when I finally decided to go for the 190cc Patriot freedom heads. I have mostly reed only good about them. For me I cant afford AFR so I have to use some other heads that fits my wallet. I live in Sweden and here AFR costs $2300-2400 and Patriot costs around $1250. How much (approx) would I gain if I use the Patriot 190cc comparred to my stock iron heads with headers and a compcam 266hr-13, and a better tuned chip?

chevyboy

I've had these heads on my DD for over a year now, I can't really complain. Skip White sucks and I would buy from anyone but them. I did have a problem with the intake bolt holes lining up, but I zero decked the block and milled the manifold, so there may have been an error in the machine work. When I took these heads out of the box, i was pretty happy with them. They have a nice and thick deck that's definitely nitrous worthy. As far as performance goes, i can't really compare these to stock heads but I have made a 14.20 pass at 6500 ft elevation on a 10.68:1 357 with stock rods, a 220 stall and 3.73 gears.

Pat Hall

iTrader: (31)

Hey Stinger32, while those Patriots may not quite be in AFR territory, they're bound to be a vast improvement over your stock heads. Even when they're ported to the max, stock heads only net around 150-160 cc port volume most of the time. I'd say for the price, they're not a bad investment. I'd have to agree that probably the best approach would be to buy them bare, and then buy all the hardware for them yourself, especially if you're getting them from someone like Skip White. If you go with Manley valves, Comp Cams springs, etc., they should turn out pretty nice. I'd also recommend getting Viton type valve seals.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

what is exactly wrong with skip whites hardware? i got the spring upgrade from them, dual spring good for .600 lift roller cam, 5 angle valve job, with backcut stainless valves, and had 2 sets of longer screw in rocker studs sent to me. whats the matter with there hardware?

84Z28406

I'm glad I found a thread discussing these heads. I've been scraping up the money for my engine for a while now and I'm wondering which heads would be best. Not counting AFRs etc that are over $1000. I'm trying to decide between Patriot Performance Freedom Series 190 CNC Bowl Blended heads, 64 cc chambers (https://www.patriot-performance.com/...&cat=40&page=1) or the Dart Iron Eagle 180 cc, 64 cc chamber heads (http://www.dartheads.com/products/cy...num-heads.html first one on the page.) Whichever I choose will be paired a performer RPM intake, 750 double pumper and possibly a comp cams XS268S cam. The intake I have, the carb and cam are up for debate. Any opinions on which to pick?

tshack

X2

bart91406

I would definitely go with the Patriots over Dart Iron Eagles, the Patriots flow better, are lighter, and cheaper!I have both put these heads on a flow bench and raced them at the track, and I am impressed, I would say that these are definitely the best bang for the buck, afrs will make more power, but if you are on a budget, these beat the hell out of spending nearly this much on iron darts or rhs etc.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

what did they flow when u flow benched them? are they close to the advertised rates?

84Z28406

That's the exact question I have as well. I figured that for the price they sell for, their flow numbers would be questionable at best. You say you've personally run these heads, with what cam, displacement and what numbers did you run with them? I want to know what I can expect from them if I get a pair.

bart91406

They did flow slightly better than advertised on a superflo bench with a 4.125 bore and a ferrea valve, the flow numbers are in this thread, I believe they are at the bottom of page 2.
----------
Here is my post with flow numbers, I also ran these for a year and have had no qulaity issues whatsoever.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

can u post pics of the porting u did? i also did sum porting but they where ported alot when i got them from skips white performance. i did alil on the exhaust side bc the exhaust numbers arent as good as i would like them. all the porting i did was with the valves in and head assembeled. i also port matched them to the felpro 1206, and then ported my HSR out to the 1206. i would like to see what u did as far as porting.

the valves i have are stainless.... not sure the brand but they are also backcut (valve stem is narrowed right behind the valve). they only ported up about half way of the intake runner and only about 1" in the exhaust port. i went it and smoothed out the transition of tht casting to there port work as well.

iroc.86

i have these heads on my motor and i love them they work excellent so far have gone 11's with them and the motor still has more in it so i see 10's in the near future

UMI Performance

We have Patriot heads on (2) different LS1 cars at our shop... we are very pleased with them and the power they put out was great as well.

Ryan

bart91406

I sure am happy to hear you have had good luck with them Ryan, I have been arguing the quality of these heads for about a year on this thread, many people who have not bought or ran them insist that they know they are junk!
----------
As far as porting goes, I no longer have pictures, and I would not port my own heads, it is just as easy to mess them up as it is to improve them, and you have no way of knowing without a flow bench. I am sure some people port there own heads with great results, but I just leave it to the proffesionals.

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

This isn't exactly on topic but I just saw these pop up on ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...1123&viewitem=


As a person who works on cylinder heads I don't mind the low-buck options that are out there. I know that given the right working over and combination of parts the low-buck heads can outperform the AFRs. It just comes down to what sort of effort you want to put into the project.
If you want to put in minimal effort then AFRs are the better choice because they are in better form and have better gear just out of the box than the cheaper heads. Of course you have to pay for being lazy though.

There are also certain qualities about the AFRs that is superior to the cheaper heads, but 9 times out of 10 those qualities aren't necessary for a street engine.
In general the AFRs have pretty much the same problems as any other aluminum performance cylinder head out there - the most common of which is worn guides & bent valves, which has nothing to do with the maker of the casting.

To summarize, I do like AFR as they are often the best quality street performance heads out there, and what has been said about them in this thread is true. I also have no problem with the cheaper heads like Patriot as they can be made to match an engine combination just as well.

My personal preference is go with the cheaper head in bare casting and set it up with my own gear and porting/finishing. If the unthinkable catastrophic damage happens, then I'd rather pay the smaller amount for a replacement casting.

bart91406

That is exactly what I did, bought the cheap bare castings, and set them up myself, that way I would be sure of the hardware in them, as well as the quality of work, it really did work out for me.

Heslekrants

I bought a set of 195cc aluminum Patriot Freedom Series heads from SkipWhite 2 years ago for a 383 I built for my 99 Suburban.

I upped for 7/16 studs .600 springs & 1.6 SS roller rockers. I'm running a .534 lift cam. Bang for the buck I'm very happy with these heads. My 99 4wd Suburban may not be a race truck but from a rolling start it pulls harder than an 08 2wd SS Trailblazer that we had for a 6hr test drive.

I've been very satified with the customer service from SkipWhite. I've made over 20 purchases so far. I just placed an order from them this morning.

Here's the 383 that in my Burb.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

im actually alittle pissed off that my patriot heads didnt come with the embossed/etched logo/lettering on the front of the heads! mine are just plain!

im very happy with the patriot 195cc heads from skips white too... so far no issues... my 383 is still in the tuning phazes but with a newb tune and old 225 bald street tires from 1995 the bird ran a 13.5 at 113mph, this was my best time and i destroyed 2 lifters my XFI280 cam and snapped a rocker stud 3/4 way down the track lol. also this is with lots of wheel spin off the line and the 1-2 shift and a dismal 2.25 60'.

ill have to get her dyno tuned soon

formula00ra

iTrader: (1)

You guy seem to be vastly experienced. I was wondering, what can you do with a new cam and the stock L98 heads to give them decent power on the street? Not really interested in taking the car to the track, just getting some snap out of my '90 formula that I'm putting a T-5 into. Cam recommendation (not some crazy lift) Roller rockers, port them, springs, lifters?