online170

We all have our reasons for upgrading our cars, but usually theres some sort of motivation. You usually have a target, or are tryin to be faster than someone

In any case, my freind is upgrading to a big block olds, and i dont think ill be faster with what hes getting, but maybe i can keep up.

Enter the trick flow top end kit. (i wont be purchasing for atleast a year, but just wanted to know if somone has tried it.

Heres the kit;
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...0&autoview=sku

Heres the part that really caught my eye;
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...t=TFS-31402002

Now, i dont know about you, but i was flabbergasted by those specs!!! I think 0.495 lift is ridiculously good, and anything over 268 adv. duration is usually pretty insane performance. (i know adv duration isnt a standard, but its what im used to.) Well this cam has a whopping .558 lift and 308/316 adv. duration!!!!!! Thats 245 at 0.050.

As if that wasnt cool enough, somehow it says you can keep your power range from 3500-7000... That seems unreasonably high at first (atleast it did to me), but its pretty close to what my car has now. ALthough the HP numbers dont come in till that RPM, the torque is still there. And for a primarily street driven car, the difference is not seen. Bottom line, the combo is very streetable.

I was getting kind of sick of seeing HotRod's tech articles on 600HP small blocks or some ridiculously high hp number, only to open it up and find out the engine is ridiculously unstreetable with a 3800 stall, and the 600HP is acheived with nitrous......

So back about 3 years ago, which was the last time i was looking closely at small block builds, the cap off point for small block builds seemed to be about 400-450 hp with good street manners.

End rant....


So has any one tried it? Is it really that good? They dont tell you what sort of bottem end you should have.

$2600 for a 500 hp small block? Thats kinda hard to beat... ( iknow the kit says $2099, but you need roller lifters to go with the combo...)

Maybe im making too big of a deal about this, but im just blown away by the hp/$ on this kit.

COMMENTS WELCOME! encouraged in fact.

kennyglm

3500 is way to high of a starting power range for a street car. between 1500 &2000 rpms a good starting point. my one car had a cam with a 2500 to 6500 rpm cam in it with stock hiway gears and the car would not even spin the tires at idle , but if you put it in first gear and let it get up in its power range usually about 25mph. and mashed the gas down you could smoke the tires because the rpms were in the cams power range

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

What size motor was the small block? I did not see it mentioned.

kennyglm

355 with a 300 duration 500 lift cam maybe if i had like a 4.88 gearing it would have been a little better then the car would wind up faster

online170

I disagree with this statement. My current cam has a power range of 2800-6200ish, and my bro's grand prix has a similar cam (296 adv duration) with a 3000-6500 rpm power range.

Having driven both, the ONLY time the "lack" of power is aparent is when im racing. Back when i had the automatic in the car, i could feel that it didnt want to get going very quickly (would still spin the tires though), and when it reached about 2500rpm, it would wake up and jump into warp speed.

Regardless of this, the car felt crazy fast, and quick on streets. If you lean into it quickly, rather than stomp on it, it changes the behaviour.

My point is, the lack of power below 2500 or 3500 is COMPLETELY relative. You have to remember that V8's make massive torque no matter where the power level is. And quite frankly, i dont feel the lack of power on the streets.

Maybe my manual trans helps with that, but im not too concerned with burning tires to a crisp on the streets, i just want to hook and move fast. With that in mind, i feel the combo is perfectly streetable. Notice the cam makes 250 lb-ft of torque at 2500rpm. Thats ALOT for such a low rpm.




As for the what small block question. Are you asking what im running, or what the kit is?

Im running a 355, and the kit calls for a minimum 350 i think. Atleast it implies it. But it mentions nothing about any of the other specs. Pistons, being the main one. So i know as much as you do in that respect.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

I think for you to get those results you would have to follow what they did to a "T". Also that was most likely on an engine dyno so expect to see a lot less installed in your car.

online170

Which isnt such a big deal, except they dont tell you what they did!

I mean i can understand if they want you to buy flat top 10:1 pistons, quality bearings, light weight connecting rods, etc etc....

But i just dont want it to be like a.... "oh by the way... you also need a 390ci motor, with 0.060 over bore, and a stroker crank..." Thats big bucks! The only parts they suggest are a single plane intake and a 750 cfm carb. But like you, im skeptical they will squeeze even close to that claim if they slapped all those parts on a stock rebuilt 350.

I mean, you can add up the power difference from the engine dyno too. Like, no accessories, and open long tube headers, with a 1" spacer on the intake manifold, but still, thats only maybe 30 hp.

Aaron91RS

iTrader: (2)

The lift is big but not excessive. Heck I'll be running .600 on a street cam in my ls1.
The duration though is abusrd for a streetable SBC. That thing will idle bad I bet. And why have a cam that makes power at 7000 rpms if you aren't spinning the motor that high?

Heads are probably ok, but for half the price of that 23* junk you can buy my Tf G2 heads with 18*/16* valves

bart91406

The combo seems sound to me.It will need a loose converter and good gears to really scream at the track, but if you just used a 2500 converter and a 3.73 rear gear it will run fine and give you a little better chance of hooking it up on the street. in a 9:1 350 with a single plane intake that cam will lope hard and may not create enough vaccum for power brakes, but a 383 with 10:1 compression is really not to expensive to build, and will not only give you more power, but really help to detune the cam.I have ran a cam like that on a 383, it did lope well but did run power brakes. as far as low end power goes, it may have a ton of power at high rpms, but a hydraulic roller cam like that with 195cc heads will have tons of tourqe everywhere with even a 2500 converter, and the imports at stoplights will have a good reason to leave you alone with that idle!Remember, it is not just the cam that determines the idle, the head runner size, intake stlye, header primary diameter,the stroke of the motor, and the cams installed intake centerline all make a huge impact.

As far as the bottom end; a stock rebuild 350 with flat top pistons would work, you would spend about 60$ to turn a crank, over a 100$ to rework rods, and 100$ on flat top pistons, then about 200$ to rebalance(not necesarry but reccomended).Then about 160$ for a ring bearing and gasket kit. For an estimated total of 620$ this would yeild about 9:1 compression and run fine.
However for 665$ you could buy a budget performance rotating assembly from cnc-motorsports that comes with an eagle cast stroker crankshaft, eagle forged rods, and speed pro pistons, and you can pick from a 10:1 or 11:1 compression.This assembly also comes with good clevite bearings and pefect circle rings, and is balanced. So for 45$ more you can have all new eagle parts, 30 more cubic inches, better compression, and make the cam more streetable.This is the kit my buddy bought and could not be any happier.

HawkZ28

iTrader: (2)

If you read the fine print in Summits catalog, the majority of those TF packages are tested on a 383, which is one more reason that I second the 383.

89importeater

i was thinking of getting that kit a couple of years ago and yes that kit and one of the others in that little "column" were tested on a 383 the others where 350.

GoodlookinRS

iTrader: (1)

I dont know a hole lot but i know my dad bought a 70 clevland for his 69 mach 1. It was a blown race motor that been rebuilt a few times. We both didnt know a hole lot about cams and the performance shop wanted to know if we wanted the same came in it we said sure why not nothing was wrong with it. The cam had a .720 in lift on it! Thats the biggest the motor could handel. It wouldnt idel at all it would die untill they put their race cars carb on it and that was a 1400cfm. Then still at stop signs it would die. But im jus sayin that his car was an auto and u need a bigger stall! I mean the car would down right fly wen it got past 30 my dad said it would go over 200 with the 2:93 gears in the back of it (not sure if thats the right gears) but its 2 something. So with a manual u should be ok but i think ur gona have to really rev it up to get it to take off how u want it to.
kevin

fast82z

iTrader: (1)

Just happen to be so lucky to find me reading this as that is what I used probably 3-4 years ago when the kit was $1700. I'd say the cam is a bit harry. If you set the idle around 1000rpm or possibly a little higher it's fine, but I've always kept my stuff idling under 800rpm even now with my 264/271 dur @ .050 solid roller. Other important thing is that it needs the supporting mods. With basically the hard parts inside the engine it only managed a 12.75@ 109 even with 3.73 gears. The next year I did things like dual 3" exhaust w/ cutouts, ignition box, cold air intake, and a 3500stall. Pretty much everything I did got me another 2 tenths until I ran off a best of 11.44@ 118. At that point it dynoed 405rwhp@ 6400rpm and 337rwtq@ 5000rpm. Up until this point I was using 10.0:1 compression and running great on cheapo 87 octane. Put the D-1SC on it with 10psi along with beefy axle, driveshaft, converter, and roll bar that all got me a best of a 10.4. Shortly after that the cam sheared off right at the dist. gear, and the new solid roller I'm using now got me to 10.0@ 135. Stupidness led me to not pull any timing when trying 15psi, and my head gaskets pushed out along with some of the metal on cylinder 4 piston.

With all that unneeded information, if I were to do it again and have plans to not boost it that motor would enjoy at least 11:1 compression, use 1.6 rockers, and a 4500 stall would be more optimal. A dual plane intake would give it more tq and possibly lower the rpm it's made at with the cost of a few hp.

online170

Thats exactly the type of input i was looking for. See i was looking for the fineprint, but i couldnt find it, so glad someone pointed out its a 383.... Thats a whole new ball game, and not nearly as impressive, but still really good.

I have a 355 now, with 11:1 TRW pistons. My 74cc iron heads, and a 0.048in head gasket (not sure if thats what in there) would put me around 9.5-9.8ish :1 compression. 64cc's would put me at actual 11:1 comp. Id imagine 72cc is about 10:1, and 67ccs would be about 10.5?

In any case, yea for sure the cam isnt ALL that makes the power. But the heads dont really "make" power, they just either restrict it, or they dont. The cam determines the characteristics of the engine performance, the head either allows it or it doesnt. Cam = Make power, Heads = free up power. That being said, i dont think they would sell a combo that restricts the cam.

Im completely out to lunch with head design though. What does the 23* mean on a 23* head? And why is a 18* or 16* better?


Also Bart, you mentioned your buddy ran "this" combo. DO you mean the trickflow package in question + a 383 rotating assembly?

online170

Hey thanks for the post! Its actually even more helpful. Could you talk about what parts you used for rotating assembly? I didnt catch if it was a 355 or 383?

But reading through your post, i already have;
1) 3" in y-pipe goin to a 3.5" cutout
2) 11:1 TRW pistons, that would be true 11:1 compression with 64 cc heads.
3) I have an MSD 6AL, but im getting a MSD 8981 (Programmable timing computer)
4) I have dual plane for more torque,
5) Manual trans for infinite, and infinitely variable stall
6) Cold air? SOrta... I have a hood i swap on to go racing. Basically a hole in the hood.
7) 4.10s or 3.73s are planned once i find a decent rear end.

Also the MSD 8981, allows you to lock your timing to 1 fixed value. Usually max timing the engine will handle. In my case its 36* locked.
The computer will
1) Drop it by "X" degrees to desired timing to start the engine. Mine like 20*.
2) As soon as it fires, it will idle at "X" degrees. Mine like 24*, for a purrrfect idle.
3) When you romp on the gas, it will fully advance the timing past "X" RPM, to max locked out timing, at the RATE you choose. For example, i want my timing to start advancing at 1000 rpm, to 36*, all in by 2500 rpm.
4) It will keep it at this max timing until about 5000 rpm, and will drop it an additional "X" degrees for max top end horsepower.

I love this computer, because it will ensure MAXIMUM power you can put out at any given time. On top of that, it wont have binding timing weights, or anything like that. Precise, repeatable circumstances. Pretty cool.

So im glad that whoever has tried it liked the combo....

fast82z

iTrader: (1)

Forgot to say also, my motor was a 383 too. It has all forged bottom end parts and uses a 6" connecting rod. Pistons were flat tops with 2 deep reliefs that came to -5.4cc's to make that 10:1 compression with .025" deck height, .040" head gaskets, and chambers milled to 68cc's from the 72 they were. Intake is a Super Victor and used a 750cfm Edelbrock. You sound good on timing, but I've always run lower cylinder pressures around idle to let me use at least full timing at idle. The manual trans will probably prefer 4.10 gears.

online170

damn thats so tempting!!! $3200ish dollars for an 11.1 sec quarter :O

I bet that would be pretty amazing to drive too. AND i wont have to upgrade my T56. It will be boderline torque handling abilities.

fast82z

iTrader: (1)

It was pretty cool to drive that, until now that it can do a 9.55@ 140.

online170

Fast, what are you running for a rear end?

fast82z

iTrader: (1)

A strange based off a dana 60. It is heavy as hell; added 80 lbs, but I have no worries about breaking it. The 3.73 gears seem to work for me pretty well, but I'm going to need 30" tall tires instead of these 28" tires if I want to do the 160mph that I should be capable of doing next season.

bart91406

I was refering to the 383 bottom end, but it seems to me that you have a good bottom end and there is not much need to upgrade.
23 degree refers to the angle of the valves, and unless you want to pony up for some real trick valvetrain and headers, you will want to stick with 23(based on stock) stuff.
The size of the runner on the head does impact the motor considerably, not so much as the cam, but the same cam with stock 160cc ports will idle better, pull more vaccum, and make more low end power, than the same motor with 210cc heads. That is not just theory, I had a comp 292 cam,(244 @ .050) in my camaro with 170cc heads, a torker intake, and 1 1/2 shorty headers. It idled rough, but had plenty of tourqe and vaccum. The next year I put afr195 heads, a victor intake, and 1 5/8 headers, and suddenly the motor chopped like a real drag car, did not create enough vaccum, and lost a little tourqe, but man did it make twice as much horsepower.
I also have to disagree with someone who says a big cam will die wit an automatic, I have ran some pretty big cams and the only times one would die was if something was wrong. Most any cam will idle under 1000 rpm if it is running right. Although a big cam should idle a little higher to prevent loading up and plug fouling, not to mention that a low idle prevents as much oil from splashing on the cam, which is a no-no with excessive valve spring pressure.