V6sucker

Should they?
Maybe. But if they are gonna sell something that is not all that much better than stock, or needs to be used with stock type stuff (IE Clutch) then what is the point? If you rate something at XXX, then you better be sure it will take XXX. If not, then yes, you are liable if it fails below XXX.

I was all set and ready to swap the 700R outta my GTA to go T-5, till I started reading more and more how bad the cases are. As it sits now, I know this car would snap the case in a heart beat if given the chance to. There are no 2 ways about it. This is just a Trq MONSTER, 383/ HSR, 2055's, 30Lb injectors right around 44 fuel PSI... and have not even begun to tune. Waiting to get full magnaflow in before that happens.

I had this things rear end on ramps the other day working on the exhaust. Yes I knew the shifter was off a gear,and it was quickly fixed after this happened. Anyway the car would only start in Drive or Rev. As I said the shifter/trans arm was off a gear.
I simply start the car (no gassing at all) with the brake pedal to the floor... Screeetttttt tink trink tink and the rear is on the ground.
Yeah it threw both of the ramps 5 feet behind the car. The car maybe moved forward 2-3 feet at most.

This also goes to the race set up's...
if your gonna drag, go auto, you will just be happier.
If your gonna X go manual, or a really good kit'd and tight cabled auto.

laiky

you sure your not confusing a high idle, tight converter, and crappy rear brakes with case snapping power??

FYI

my brothers stock 84 could do the same.

and again, why would you consider running a T5 that tends to grenade behind lg4's and tpi305's with a real motor? The tremec conversion (either) was on my list and in my budget before my motor was built.

If someone advertised a 2bolt block with a cast crank that was rated to 600 HP you would be sceptical, wouldn't you?

V6sucker

the idle is 6-700.
the converter is a 1800 stall.
The rear brakes are what they are, stock. Def not the best, and will be upgraded very soon.

and again this is a worked over 383. I built it for Trq over HP. and we all know that Trq breaks things...

BioV

Whats the point in even buying G-Force (so called) upgrade trans parts if they are not going to withstand a fairly built motor. They parts are cheap and useless in the performance world. They're market is going to solely be based on the un-aware patron.

After reading this entire postings above, I will never buy any of their products. Another aftermarket vendor making post-problem claims that they do not warrantee race parts and makes them cheaply to the customers dismay. 400hp is 400hp no matter what tread& clutch the car is running. It should last at least 1 years abuse otherwise you need to pulkl your head out your rears and rate it at a more appropriate 250hp and not try and mislead your patrons.

Your downfall, not mine.

laiky

if you race in a class that requires factory parts, or if you road race and care aboutweight, or auto cross, i can see it. If your on a road course you will be shifting quickly but smoothly. On the drag strip or blvd you you really abuse your tranny. I would say the shock of launching and shifting hard is far worse than the actual power you put through the unit.

Guest

Yea, the Fords IMO were more problem prone, I heard numerous stories of them grenading in virtually stock applications (besides my own) and almost always 3rd although I saw some 2nd gears too. The space between the ratios makes them inherently weaker. Probably partly the reason SVO/SVT/Motorsport was selling 2.95 gearsets besides the 'stronger' gears. I dont remember them ever selling a 3.35 heavy duty gearset.

IIRC the distance from CL to CL of the mainshaft to countershaft is 77mm. Thats the problem. You can only fit so much gear between there, and within the confines of the relatively small T-5 case. You can brace up the case, go with stronger and wider gears to an extent, straighter teeth... and you are still somewhat limited. Its only going to take so much abuse before it just gives you the finger. I like the trans like others do, but if I was pushing any sort of serious power and did a lot of racing I think I'd look elsewhere unless I was stuck by rules. Its like racing with a piece of glass in the tunnel.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

If torque doesnt break them, then what does? It can fail outright due to excessive torque, fail due to high impulse torque (clutch dump on slicks), or fail from fatigue due to prolonged high torque loading. This is one of the reasons why I HATE HP ratings alone. That tells me nothing. A max torque rating that can be sustained for some period of time tells me alot more. That alone gives you an idea of what the capacity of the transmission is. Even a total peice of crap transmission might be able to put up with high HP for a short time, but it will quickly take a dump if you have a lead foot.

TKOPerformance

My real world experience has been that the G-Force setup will handle 500 lbs/ft. and 600 HP with a reasonable setup. I know people who have personally run their products for years, among them Bob Hanlon who is still to my understanding the fastest Tremec equipped racer in the world. Everything has to be in reason though. If I properly shock load a trans, rear or transfer case, even with power lower than it is rated for it will break. That goes for everything in a driveline.

I could take my '76 CJ5 which has 3.15:1 low range gears, 3.45 axel gears, and a fairly low 1st gear in the trans, though it isn't a granny low, and break any number of drivelien components with the bone stock and very tired 6 cylinder if I wanted to break something. All I'd have to do is put it in 4-wheel low, first gear, stick it on dry pavement and drop the clutch at about 3,000 RPM and I guarantee something will go boom. We're talking about a motor that probably doesn't even make 100 HP. How would it break? Simple, the overall gear ratio and instantaneous application of torque, coupled with high traction would shock load something with enough instantaneous torque to break it. See even with a motor like that that might make 180 lbs/ft. if I couple that to the gear multiplication it goes up to like about 5,800 lbs/ft. Then I throw in the other variable: time. By dumping the clutch that power is applied instantaneously (if the clutch grabs hard and holds, which it would becuase it's in good shape and the motor is whipped) something would get it's neck rung in this stunt. Yet, if I ease into the throttle and slip the clutch, or stick it in a slippery situation like mud I can beat the snot out of it and never hurt anything. It isn't that 5,000 RPM powershift from 2nd to 3rd in a mud hole that breaks anything, because everyhting is loaded already, and was done so progressively. The little extra abuse from the slam shift doesn't phase anything. But try to hammer it with traction from a dead stop and things get ugly.

What's the point? The point is that you've got to know the limitations of your equipment and drive around them to keep money in your bank account.

Shagwell

TKO - yes, 2nd and 3rd seem to be the comon pop....

- From my personal experience, it isn't from shock load. I broke all of mine underpower in 3rd. The mainshaft and case couldn't handle it, pushed just far enough apart to skip one tooth and.......kablouie! - Took out the cluster and 3rd every time. The one I blew the case apart in actual broke the mainshaft also. I side-step @ around a 5k launch. 3.73 gears, little/no tire spin, 1.6X 60fts(11.7X's 1/4). Straight shifts, no clutch, no lift. Never hurt anything other than 3rd, not even a bur'ed syncro. All on basically stock T5's. From personal experience, I don't think the G-force unit would take much more than stock. The straight cut gears and harder main-shaft would help, but the weak case is still gonna give.
- However, I do agree that it should be rated for what it can handle. To me, the comon performance "street car" has roughly 400hp, stickier than stock tires, a decent suspension and a stout street type clutch. It should be rated as so, and should be given ratings as per application.

irocalot

I think it was nice to hear from the vendor in this case. Bottom line, even if there was a warranty (and it appears there was NOT one given) - the warranty could only be for DEFECTS in the parts they supplied, not defects in the design of the transmission, which they surely did NOT design.

I'd have to agree with the previous poster about breaking parts - give me *ANY* new car with a V-8 and a stick, and I'll bust it good within an hour, guaranteed! You can use whatever "unobtanium" parts you can find, mount up a couple of "space-saver" spare tires on the drive wheels, hell, you can grease the road - trust me, I CAN BREAK IT!

I think people have been spoiled to a large extent by the new car manufacturers - "bumper to bumper" warranties - a defect warranty turns into an "anything-I-can-break" warranty. Just because someone can ruin a part does not mean the manufacturer did anything wrong. Show them a defect, they'll make it right - that's fair.

DRR

Those defending G-force are missing the point.

That point is-
If the stock parts are just as strong (or weak) as G-force parts, then why bother buying so called upgraded parts from G-force?

They can blame it on other reasons all they want. Fact is, they are useless parts if there is still other weak links causing them to break just the same as stock parts.

irocalot

I've got to take issue with the post above - as far as anyone here knows there has been no cause of failure determined - far from defending the vendor, this is just simple "innocent until proven guilty", basic stuff. Bottom line, there was no warranty on the parts, defective or not.

The vendor offered to look over the parts if they WERE truly defective. The original poster hasn't taken them up on that offer as of yet - who's fault is that?

There was a post a couple of weeks ago complaining about the lack of availability of parts for third gens - how another company posted on this very board that there simply wasn't enough money in it to make it worthwhile. This makes post that reasoning seem very valid. If a vendor does offer third-gen parts, he needs to be able to offer a lifetime, no-questions-asked warranty, or he risks being lambasted for selling "junk"..

DRR

I'll take issue with the post above also.

It wan't your hard earned money that was lost was it. This manufacturer mislead the buyers that the parts would handle 400hp- the manufacturer made false claims- the manufacturer is suppose to be the expert and knowingly made a part claiming the case is weak and not his parts- if the manufacturer would put "the case is weak so the 400hp rating is only good if you upgrade your case also (aka buyer beware)" then the manufacturer would have been honest from the start and there is NO POINT in buying his product because the stock parts work just as good as his does for this specific application.

Why don't you understand this?
Make parts for us that are better than stock. Don't make parts equal to stock and only claim they are better. We don't need vendors like this.

The original poster is not the only case, I know first hand of another G-force failure just like this and the part was brand new not even in the car one month.

irocalot

Once again, beg to differ - how many people bought the T/A girdles for the 9 bolt? Does anyone dare to call the 9 bolt a capable part, worthy of upgrades? It really isn't, those who run it do so at their own peril, and they gladly buy upgrades for a weak part. How many posts do we see looking for gears for the 9 bolt? Is a vendor that makes parts for it guilty of ripping people off? No - the T/A girdle is a top-notch piece, that happens to fit a weak rearend.


Maybe putting a girdle on it makes it last just a little longer - it doesn't make the part bulletproof, but it might help. Will you get mad at T/A if your diff fails? They made the part at the specific request of forum members.Would you like to ask how many forum members get 200k out of stock 9-bolts? Then compare that number to the folks who kill 3 or 4 of them in a couple of months? Some drivers break parts. Some drivers don't. If you want a lenco, then buy one.

Shagwell

- don't kill a good thread arguing back and forth, hit the pm key and bicker all you want.

- IMO, G-Force should state that their ratings are base on "X" senario(street tires, light street clutch, lighter vehicle) not just say theat they'll handle "X" power. Not that they don't intended it that way, just that they don't say it which leaves it up the the end user to "read between the lines". I too agree that the G-Force parts don't really help a T5. I put tons of abuse to my T5's, and after breaking them I don't think the aftermarket parts would take much, if any, more than the factory stuff.
- as for the "weak 9-bolt" stock vs stock, they're much stronger than a 10-bolt. Aftermarket parts can make a 10-bolt take more and, yes, such parts aren't available for the 9-bolt. The girdle helps, but obviously it alone can't do what better gears, axles, etc and the girdle in a 10 can. - that's all I'll say, as this is off topic.

TKOPerformance

First off, everyone stop claiming that the G-Force parts are no stronger than the stock parts. That's total hogwash. Anyone who knows anything about material strength or gear design knows that the G-Force parts are inherntly stronger than the stock gears and mainshaft.

Second, some of what is being said has merit, particularly with regards to case flex. The G-Force gears are so much stronger so that they can tolerate misalignment without failure. This is what breaks stock T5 gears and parts. The gears are designed to run at a certain mesh, just like gears in a rearend. When that mesh changes the gears are loaded in a way for which they were not designed, and eventually it all goes bad. The secret might be that the gears are rated to 300 lbs/ft at the correct mesh, but are only good to 200 lbs/ft. at some specified distance out of proper mesh. Any geared component has this same problem. That's why straight cut gears are used when strenght is more important than noise. They are very loud, but also very strong, and don't try to force themselves apart like a helical cut gearset does. Look at any serious manual trans (Liberty, Jerico, G-Force dog-ring) and this is what you'll see. This is the exact same problem that plauged the original M21 Muncies. This is why GM created the M22 Rockcrusher, so named because the reduced helix angle of the gears made the trans whine, and because it was reportedly stronger than the M21. However, the M22 still suffered from the same case flex problem as the M21, and under the right conditions it would go boom just as quick. Most people don't want to hear that because the M22 is a legend, but I spent my youth putting input shafts and 3rd gears in them right alongside the M21s that I was putting 1st and 2nd gears in. Grumpy Jenkins used the swap the trans in his ZL-1 Camaro between races, because he got sick of losing a race over a busted M22. He had enough spares to get through the entire day of racing, and then they'd go back to the shop, get torn down and have everything replaced. He had to run the stock trans because of the class he was racing in, and this was an expensive proposition, but not as expensive as going out in an early round and going home empty handed.

Bottom line, the G-Force setup is way better than stock, but it isn't unbreakable. Saying that a driveline component is unbreakable is like saying that the Titanic was unsinkable. You make outrageous claims and eventually the world is going to knock your privates in the dirt. Don't think that by going to a Tremec or a T56 that you'll avoid the chance of breaking a trans. Not so, I've repaired plenty of them too. Anything can break. If you want a serious drag race manual trans you need a Jerico or a Liberty, and you'll have 4 speeds, not 5 or 6. Or you could swap to an auto, and if it's built right maybe it'll live. It'll be more consistent in most combos anyway...

DRR

Then we all agree. Instead of wasting your money on G-force parts and the time to install them into a T5 case, you are better off spending the same money on just buying a Tremec for a "more reliable" application for 400hp.

We now know thaat G-force parts (no matter how well they are so called made) will not make a T5 handle 400 hp like a stock Tremec will. Nothing lst forever, but you wil definately get a longer lifspan by far with a Tremec @ 400hp.

T5+Gforce < Tremec

case closed

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

No sense in posting retoric like that, the word is out, their product is no better than stock. If you put it in a weak environment (the case) then it will break. Just say it like it is, "if you are making serious HP" buy something else, because this stuff just won't cut it (400-600HP is serious).

drag1LE

You know, I certainly am inclined to trust TKO performance's outlook more than some of the rest of the naysayers simply because he seems to know his stuff.

If some of the rest of you are really trying to say that a G-Force is a waste of money, well I'll have to wait and see because I've ordered a dog-ring T5. Once I get it in, and if it in fact does perform well at the track, I'll be letting you all know.

On the flip side, I just broke my stock T5 last Friday, so if I break the G-Force, well, I'll post that here too.

gheatly

iTrader: (2)

Seems interesting how several people keep confusing the G-Force product (gears) with the tranny case.

The gears are fine, it is the case that is the problem. Thus, for people that beat the crap out of their cars, the G-Force gear upgrade may not be the best way to spend your money.

I'll also disagree with the person that said that Mustangs had fewer problems with T-5s because they made less torque. Go to ANY Mustang site and see what they post about T-5s. My wife drives an '03 Mach I so I visit a Mach I tech forum. Many, many people there have broken their Tremec 3650 trannys. One guy had his local Ford dealer deny his warranty claim because he had Flowmaster mufflers and a K&N air filter.

Shagwell

TKO - you hit the nail on the nose with that last post. 100%.
The only thing I dislike about the TKO's is a basic inability to straight shift. Every time you touch that clutch you're wasting forward momentum. If you have to clutch to shift, switch to a good auto, you'll be faster.
- As for the T5, I'm not trying to say that the G-Force parts aren't superior, just that I don't think it makes sense to go that route. Their parts are much better than stock, but w/o an aftermarket case available, I just don't think any T5 is ever gonna cut it.
- I also agree 100% on the M22's. My 69 would spit the cluster shaft out and dent the trans tunnel almost everytime I shifted 2nd and it broke traction. If it stayed glued the trans was fine, but if it hopped, all bets were off. The case would split in two as the cluster rolled-out.

...thats an old wives' tale. All major manufacturer's lost a law suit about such claims back in the late 80's/early 90's. The courts ruled that better flowing exhaust systems and better air filters were not neccessarily a "performance modification" nor could they hurt the vehicle in any way. - By the same token, my buddies 02 GT started pumping oil into the rad(about 1-1/2 old at the time). He took it to the dealer who also told him it was low on compression, stating it had bad ring seal and a cracked oil-cooler. He told them to put a motor in it and they told him they wouldn't warranty it because he had no cat-converters on the car. He told him he'd take them to court. They told him he'd win, but also be fined by the EPA for taking the cats off....

gheatly

iTrader: (2)

Shagwell, it actually happened. I said that the local dealer denied the claim. The guy had to call in a Regional Marketing Manager and the last I heard, they were still negotiating on the repair.

I know about the federal law that protects consumers that use aftermarket parts. That doesn't mean that the car companies still won't try to void your warranty anyways.

The guy from G-Force hit the nail on the head - people tell all kinds of lies to try and get their car fixed for free. One guy on the Mach site broke his rear end at the track. He pulled off his nitrous system before having the car trailered to the dealership. The mechanic at the dealership noticed that the car had drag radials on it (whoops!) and all of the melted rubber in the wheelwell. BOOM - voided warranty because car was raced in a timed event.

CrazyHawaiian

I'll also be sure to return here and give my feedback after I install the T5 that TKO Performance built for me (g-force internals 600hp kit) and pound on it some. I'm going to be using it with a 3200 pound car, 350whp and 235-245mm wide street tires in a drifting application. I know the T5 has a bad reputation but I think some people have unreasonable expectations when it comes to how much abuse a manual transmission can take (be it by the driving style or the power levels). Even for me, I dont expect this transmission to last forever, but I'm confident it will last longer than a stock one would. And my application is going to be tough on the trans even with limited tracton, guarantee stress on the transmission when I pop the clutch at speed to induce a loss of traction (aka clutch kick). We'll see if the T5 can handle it w/ strong gears.

89TA383M5

Well its been 2 months since I blew the trans up. After calling G-Force and them telling me they cant do ANYTHING for me I put the car on jack stands and had to watch everyone else drive there nice cars for the summer. Well finally saved up the money for a TKO 600 and tonight I just got back from my first drive. I was so pissed that G-Force wouldnt help me at all that I havnt even been back on this site except to find out were to get the TKO conversion from. As far as the trans goes. If the G-Force VP wants me to take pictures of my car and send them to him I'll even send him the trans which I havnt even taken apart. Third blew up just like it did when the T5 was stock so I didnt even bother taking it apart because I wanted to do the right thing and let G-Force tell me what I need to do. I wasnt expecting to be told. "There is nothing I can do."
Ok 700hproush, I wasnt expecting to have my trans fixed for free. I just expected something, anything. Not "cant help you." I called and asked before I ordered the trans kit that if that kit was ideal for my car and I completely told the person I talked to about the car; the car, clutch, engine, and tires. He told me I would be fine and even asked If I needed to get the upgraded mainshaft and all he said was, "wouldnt be a bad idea." Another thing that bothered me was the fact that third didnt blow durring a power shift at the track which by the way that clutch slipped really bad but during a quick shift from 2nd to 3rd which started off as a 15mph roll in first. After asking about what to do about the trans blowing up when talking to the guy on the phone I asked if I should get the dog ring set up and if it would be any stronger and he told me that the gears are made of the same metal so they wont be any stronger. Straight up told me he cant help me.
So now I have a busted t5 laying on my garage floor and a "cant help you" from your company. If you want me to send pictures of my 89 TA with the tires and the old clutch I'll be more than happy to. If you want I'll even send the broken T5 that I havnt taken apart or drained. And yes it has your fluid in it. I wished that I could have talked to you first instead of whoever I did on the phone, because seriouslly I wasnt expecting anything for free. I wasnt demanding and I was very polite. I just wanted to know what I should do about my t5 with your broken parts in it. I was probable going to buy a another kit from G-Force but getting told that you couldnt help me at all and that even if I bought a dog ring setup that it wouldnt be any stronger I had no choice but to buy a new trans from somewhere else.

TKOPerformance

First, it would be good to hear Mr. Long post back in response to this last post from the originator.

Second, my gut says that this last post is sort of double sided. Don't get immediately offended by that statement, listen to what I have to say. You state that you didn't expect to have your trans fixed for free, so what did you expect? You state that all they said was that they "couldn't help you", what did you expect them to say? I mean, if you didn't expect to get a free lunch and what they said was "sorry we can't help you", isn't that basically what you expected to hear? It is unclear as to what you expected to have happen when you called them to tell them that your trans was broken. In fact it seems like you feel that they should be fixing your trans for free, regardless of the fact that they do not warrant their parts against breakage, due to the nature of the use of the parts they sell. I understand that you are upset, but how do you feel that the situation should have been handled? I think at least part of your frustration seems to be that you feel that you were mislead in your initial conversation with G-Force, prior to even purchasing anything. If what you are saying is accurate then there is probably some truth to that. It sounds like one of two things happened. Either you were given bad advice, or you managed to break their parts with a combination that they didn't feel was in any danger of breaking anything. Also, it would be nice to know what broke in your trans.

Third, posting back with exactly what clutch, tires, rear, and engine combination would be very useful information to all those watching this thread.

Here is G-Force's disclaimer from their literature verbatim:

"Although we do not like to put torque or horsepower ratings on our products due to the vast differences in clutch, engine, chassis, tire, and mounting combinations, we can give a very rough estimate. There are simply too many variables to consider when trying to figure out how much power or torque a transmission will take in a particular application. Generally, it can be assumed that with the available upgraded mainshaft, the G-Force T5 kit will hanlde roughly 600 hp or 500 ft-lb. of torque. Obviously this is just a rough estimate regarding the power and torque handling capability, but it should give some idea as to what the G-Force T5 will handle in your particular application"

I'm not going to post commentary on that, but at least it's out there for everyone to examine.

89TA383M5

I was thinking that they would say, "sorry our product didnt hold up." "We'll take a $100 off a new kit if you want." Something. Nothing serious just something. Not basically, your out of luck. As far as my setup; Full weight 89TA. 413 NA TPI maybe 350horse. Centerforce dual friction clutch and a bald pair of BFG drag radials.

TKOPerformance

Here's the real question: Why would you need a whole new kit? Why wouldn't you just take the trans apart, see what failed, and get just those parts? It sounds to me like worst case scenario you're looking at a new cluster and a third speed gear. I'd say you could have saved yourself considerable cost by doing that.

Also, did you do the installation of the kit yourself? That could potentially be part of the problem from a manufacturer's standpoint. Not that it was any fault on your part, but the possibility would make me warry if I'd sold you the kit.

89TA383M5

After seeing what happened to my last trans when it blew up third, it ate the rest of the trans along with it. Third had huge chuncks taken out of it and completely stripped the countershaft on the stock T5 when it blew up.
There is no way I would just replace the gear and the countershaft after sending that much metal through the trans. Not to mention I drove the car a mile trying to get it home till it locked up every foot or 2 in front of my friends house.
As far as wanting to know who assembled the trans, I guy named Bret Harmon who is a huge Ford guy thats been in Hot Rod assembled the trans.
I didnt take the trans apart because I remember the guys post that downshifted his trans into 1st that 700hproush is talking about. When G-force got the trans it was already taken apart and didnt have there fluid in it. So I havnt touched it other than pulled it out and took the speedo sensor off for my TKO.

TKOPerformance

Typically with a failure of a single gear I've found that you can replace the individual parts and end up with a unit that is just as viable as before the failure. However, I always replace the bearings as a matter of course, because as you stated a lot of metal goes through them and that's never good. Most transmissions that fail break the same parts over and over again. I repaired Muncies for my father's race car like this for years. All that would ever break on an M21 was the cluster and first (slicks and a 5,000 RPM launch will do that). The M22 had problems with either 3rd or the input shaft, aka 4th gear, typically also coupled by a cluster problem. I just kept the needed parts in stock, and at peak I could pull it apart and rebuild it with the broken parts replaced in about two hours. I've heard of guys that used to cut cluster gears apart on a lathe and weld up bastard clusters from several good gears. I never got into that, but have seen clusters like that over the years that stood up, because actually the weld is often stronger than the gear itself. The last time I saw one like that was just a year ago in Bob Hanlon's shop, and guess what the cluster was for? Yup, a G-Force T5.

The problem before is that you continued to drive the car. If you'd stopped and gotten a tow you may have been able to save most of the internals. Most failure problems I've experienced have been at the track, so it's usually a matter of limping the car back to the pits and then having a friend who's got a wrecker come and tow it home.

From a warranty standpoint you were smart not to take it apart. Did you talk to G-Force about sending it to them for diagnosis?

89TA383M5

I never talked to them about sending it back since they told me that they couldnt help me. And I dont like pulling stuff apart for no reason because then i have parts laying around. Right now there is a T5 with the whole G-Force internals kit broken laying on my garage floor and in a couple weeks I'm losing the garage and having to put the car and all my tools in an indoor public storage. One big broken piece on the floor or several broken pieces on the floor?
----------
Also why would I take it apart. If the trans broke 3rd the same as when it was stock with 100k on it then why would I even want to rebuild something thats just going to break. Especially when they didnt even offer to take anything off any parts or a kit if I wanted to upgrade to the dogring. Also the "gentleman" on the phone told me the dogring wouldnt be any stronger.

TKOPerformance

Mostly at this point I'm just playing devil's advocate.

The dog ring kit isn't any stronger, so you got good advice on that part at least. The point is that is shifts much faster and the shifting system is much more durable under racing conditions.

Once again, it would be good to hear Mr. Long weigh in on this...

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

I'm kinda on the fence about this. I think Mike made some very good points, and, from what he said, they clearly do warranty their transmissions in SOME situations. That seems reasonable, although, before I'll buy from him, I'll definitely want more clarification on what they will or won't warranty.

On the other hand, here's part of the T5 product description from the G Force website:

"Normally the stock T-5 is rated at about 300 ft-lb of torque capacity. While this is fine for stock or lightly modified engine combinations, especially running small street tires, it isn't generally enough for most of today's high powered street/strip engine combinations, especially those running bigger, more aggressive tires. This is where the G-Force T-5 kit comes into play. Although we do not like to put torque or horsepower ratings on our products due to the vast differences in clutch, engine, chassis, tire, and mounting combinations, we can give a very rough estimate. There are simply too many variables to consider when trying to figure out how much power or torque a transmission will take in a particular application. Generally, it can be assumed that with the available upgraded mainshaft, the G-Force T-5 kit will handle roughly 600 hp or 500 ft-lb. or torque in a 3300 lb. vehicle running drag radials at the track with a moderate clutch upgrade."

After reading that, I would assume I could expect my G Force T5 would hold up behind a 450+ hp, 450+ lb/ft engine in my car with my Center Force clutch. After reading that, I would also assume I could power-shift that car. While I don't do it now, as I know even my poor old 305 would break my T5, the reason I'm spending the 2 grand or so for the G Force tranny is so I can drive my car for the best possible time.

Now, I'll bet I've seen a dozen 4th gen guys break their T-56's at the track when they bolt slicks on it and launch at 3000+ rpm. I'd never assume a G Force T5 would be stronger, but, if I spent over 2 grand on a transmission upgrade, I would expect that transmission to be able to withstand "reasonable use" in the situation for which it was upgraded.

Mike, if you're reading this, I would appreciate your clarifying the conditions under which a customer can expect their transmission to hold up; especially on your website. If it can't stand running with slicks, I think you should spell that out. If it can't stand powershifting, I think you should spell that out as well. I'm not questioning the quality of your products, but, when people come to you for an upgrade, they're looking for a transmission for extreme duty applications. I think you'd be best serving your potential customers to more clearly define WHAT extreme duty your product can handle, and what it can't. In doing so, you'd also be more effectively managing their expectations, cutting down on any potential dissatisfaction later.

I filled out the contact form on your website last night, requesting more information and pricing. As a potential customer, i know I would be more inclined to buy if I had a more clear idea of the strengths and limitations of the produc.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

GREAT POST!

Years ago, i was so broke I could barely feed myself. The M-22 in my Chevelle broke and i decided to have it gone through completely by a guy I knew who was a transmission genius. It took me months to save up for the parts, as we replaced EVERYTHING.

In the meantime, I was picking Vega 4 speeds up at the junkyard for 10 bucks apiece. They were the old Saginaws that GM had left over from early Corvettes before they went to Muncies. They bolted right in, but were so weak I'd actually carry one in the trunk with me so I could swap it in right beside the road where the tranny broke. In the six months it took me to get the money together to rebuild my M22, I went through 4 of the Vega 4 speeds. At 10 bucks a pop, though, they were a bargain.

After I got my blueprinted M22 back in, I never had another transmission problem, and I drove like a maniac in those days. The point is, you get what you pay for. I found this thread when someone posted in another thread I started that you could get a T56 swap kit for a grand, (including transmission). Maybe you can, but a stock T56 won't handle 450+ hp or 450+ lb/ft torque, either.

I'm still gathering information, but I've run across a number of people running upgraded T5s in high-horsepower/torrque applications. For 4 grand or so, you can get a T56 that is virtually bulletproof. I don't know if 4 grand could make a T5 that strong, but I think 4 grand is out of most of our price-range anyway.

There are numerous fixes available for the inherent weaknesses in the T5. The question is, can those shortcomings be corrected to the point where a T5 could go 50,000 miles or more behind a stout, street 383 that occasionally goes to the track and does the occasional burnout to impress the chicks? In his last post, Mr. long appeared to say his could.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

G Force makes an upgraded case as well. It's 250.00. The steel bearing retainer is 40.00 and the cluster support plate is 56.00. What is not clear on their website is whether they also upgrade the case when you send them your T5 to be upgraded.

Also, G Force says you also need to upgrade the main shaft in 400+ hp applications. That's 335.00 for a 9310 shaft, or 565 for a 4340 shaft. Again, I don't know if the upgraded main shaft comes as part of their rebuilt upgrade.

I think you have to look at the transmission as a total package, making upgrades that compliment and reinforce each other. You wouldn't put a .500 lift cam in your car and keep the stock valve springs; same thing here.

I'd like to know exactly WHAT upgrades the guy who started this thread had.

Klortho

I don't know where this info come from, but the T56 will handle up to 500 lb/ft of torque, and the Viper version will do 650 and saw a many T56 behind 400+ hp LS1's launching at 4-5k on drag radials.

Anyway, there is one word on the G-force site that can keep them from being liable for fixing a transmission that was put behind a car and broke, and it's 'assume' It could be that his was one of the flukes that broke. I know for a fact that the T-5's even the WC T-5's can't handle being dumped from 4-5k and the only ones that can right now is the TKO or 3550. I had a guy come into the store that had a WC that broke the 3rd gear in the car, sheered about 5 teeth off of it looking for parts. The T-5's are junk, period and the cases can't take the torque which probably as stated contributes to their failure.

However I did find this interesting

drag1LE

The most common thing to break on T-5s, as far as I can tell, is third gear, which then wipes out the countershaft. I launched @ 6K (with slicks, pulling 1.5X 60's) countless times on my stock WC T5 without issue. It's only when I started powershifting that I broke. I posted my breakage story, with pics, on the transmission forum awhile back.

Klortho

The ones in the Camaro's may be different than in the Mustangs. I talked to a local Mustang guru when I decided to swap out the auto for a 5-speed and he told me not to even bother with getting a stock T5 upgrading a stock T5 with better internals or WC but to go ahead and get a 3550 or TKO that the 5k dumps you have to do in order to get the car down the track would kill it rather quickly.

TKOPerformance

The M22 was fine for street cars, even very powerful ones. I used to run an M21 that I rebuilt and blueprinted in my Nova for years behind a 500HP 383. I never had a lick of difficulty with it. A track car is another story. They would blow like anything in a track car on slicks with an agressive clutch.

My T56 is a stock rebuild/blueprint job that I did myself. I have driven it as hard as possible, though sproradically, for the past three years without any problems. It's a full weight IROC Z28 with a modified 350 TPI, 3.73 gears, a SPEC stage III clutch, and decent tires. I powershift it every time I drive it.

That being said, a T56 isn't even in the same ballpark as a T5. That's why the T56 was a clean sheet design, and they didn't simply graft a 6th gear into a modified T5 case. The design is totally different. The Tremec's and the T45 are all designed using the T56 as a blueprint. To look at a lot of the internal parts you'd think they were T56 parts. In fact you can use the upgraded blocker rings from a T56 in a T45.

There's nothing you could do to a stock T5 case to make it stronger, unless you had someone heli-arc additional material into the weak areas, but you'd be just as likely to cause a fialure doing this as to make it stronger. G-Force offers and upgraded case, but it isn't part of their base trans, you have to specifiy it when you order. The cluster support plate is a bunch of BS from what I've seen. I don't see how somehting that attaches to the stock, flex prone case using the same fastener locations makes anything stronger. The plate it replaces is not flex prone, and isn't a structural part of the trans anyway. All it does is set the countershaft endplay and hold the end of the race and shim. An upgraded case has merit, but I don't have any personal experience with one yet.

If you're doing a swap up front, or starting with a car that has a NWC T5 then you are going to be bucks ahead in the long run to swap to a Tremec. Where the G-Force kit has merit is when you are starting with a WC T5, or running in a class where you can't change the trans. That's why the kit exists in the first place.

BTW, I too have seen stock WC T5s take amazing punishment and not break. I've seen a full weight Mustang on slicks with a 347 and a 250 shot of nitrous yank the wheels off the ground on the launch and not break the trans. Eventually the trans is going to break. You can only cheat death so many times. But, it isn't "impossible" as a lot of people want you to beleive. The other side is that for every car I've seen do this five other people have broken their T5 on the street in a stone stock car.

Shagwell

as I stated before, my stock WC T5's took 5000-5200 side steps everytime I launched the car. I never lifted, never clutched between gears, and never broke one on launch or shifting. I broke all mine under power in 3rd gear. Case flex + helical gears + hp = BOOM! Mine all had the factory steel input retainer, carbon/steel sychros, and one of them had the 9310 mainshaft but otherwise they were stock. Regular, non-synthetic, Castrol Dexron III.
- I realize that my results aren't typical, but it's what happend with my 3. I beat them daily and the took it pretty well. With the upgraded parts I'm sure I would have no issues once I get finished and get the car slimmed down to around 3000lbs, instead of 4001(w/o me ). My reason for going to the T56 is that with my destroker(380ci) I'll be running either a 4.10 or a 4.56 gear, and I will still be driving it fairly often. - Rockland will sell me an all-new T56 rated for 750hp for $2300 delivered to my door, and the TKO's are just too notchy, basically impossible to straight shift, which makes it worthless IMO.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

I raced my car virtually every Friday night from May-October for two years at Atlanta Dragway. If I've seen one, I've seen a dozen 4th gens break their stock T56s with only mildly upgraded LS1s. It was a regular topic of discussion in the F-body club I belonged to.

For several months in 2004, I had a psychotic event and decided I wanted an LS1 Camaro. I drove 5 of them over two months, and every one had balky shifting or grinding synchros. After moving here, I met a guy who sells Camaros and Firebirds; mostly 4th gens. He said 9 out of 10 4th gens he sees with T56s and over 50,000 miles on them have transmission problems.

If you go to the manual trans section on LS1tech.com, you'll see post after post from guys who've broken their transmissions and are looking for ways to make them stronger.

Now, I'm not suggesting the T56 isn't MUCH stronger than a T5, but, it is not the be-all, end-all, either. If you run 450+ hp and 450 lb/ft with either and drive them hard, you'll probably break either one. Surely, the T56 will last longer, but why do you think so many companies are selling upgraded T56s?

TKOPerformance

The T56 went through a design evolution just like the T5, the difference is that it was always stronger to begin with. The first T56s offered in 1993 were only rated to 350 lbs/ft and had a tall first gear. Over the years various changes upgraded the T56. Earlier transmissions also had inferior synchro design, but this was corrected as time went on.

By far the biggest complaint about the T56 is synchro wear. This is going to be a problem with any transmission that is designed with shift smoothness as a priority over strength. The T56 is used in a variety of high end cars (Astin Martin DB7, Viper, etc) where clunky shifts would simply not be acceptable to people who are going to lay down that kind of money for a car. This really just means that the trans is going to need frquent freshening with hard use, and that isn't any different for any other high performance trans (Tremec TKO, Liberty T10, etc.).

Another area where the GM T56s missed the boat is that they only have a 27 spline output shaft, instead of the big 30 spline unit used in the Viper trans. With outrageous torque the mainshaft can become a liability. This is why the aftermarket has stepped up with a 30 spline conversion for the GM T56s.

The bottom line is that you can't even compare a T56 to a T5. That's like comparing a powerglide to a 4L80E. Like several people have said on this thread, if you push anything too far it will fail. The T56 was an enourmous step forward in technology and strength, but it isn't totally bulletproof. It's a much better starting point than a T5 in terms of upgrades, and doesn't suffer from the case flex problem that is usually the end of a T5. With upgraded gears and mainshafts T56s are running leMans in 750 hp cars for hours on end and winning. I don't think any T5 can claim that.

johnyIROC

After receiving literature from G-Force about their product, I was all set to order their kit when the time comes (probably soon).

My beef is not with the customer service (sounds terrible though).... it is with the HP rating. The poster representing G-Force clearly stated that this rating is a "joke" and isn't based on science... it is just a figure they threw out there. From the testimonial all over the net, it is clearly over rated if you look at the number of failures in only mild 400HP applications. GM generally under rates their stuff as everyone knows... and their numbers are science based.

It really bothers me that he said customers with problems should have an engineer call to represent them... because engineers use facts and science.... and no science was used whatsoever to come up with the HP rating... the most important marketing figure. Serious negligence here.

At a very minimum, there should be a disclaimer saying that with a stock case, it isn't likely to survive more than 400HP... Maybe they didn't know before... but they know now and should revise their literature.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

Where are you finding info on that? Their website says the T56-011 is an F-Body replacement for the T5, so I'm assuming it's the version made to work with our clutch mechanisms, but it doesn't list hp or torque ratings, or price.

Shagwell

rockland standard gear
- I'm not running the factory type clutch, linkage, or bellhousing. I run an old-school bellhousing(Mcleod SFI) with the trans standing up square and a custom mechanical clutch. - I just need a regular sbc T56, made to replace any old, standard bolt pattern manual trans. -

CrazyHawaiian

What are your guys thoughts on beefing up the stock T5 case? I've looked into it, and I know there a part for the tailshaft and 5th gear, but I'm thinking more along the lines of something that'll help with 1-4th gear. Like maybe some sort of brace thats bolted around the trans itself w/ the actual brace hugging the weak parts of the case? Just wondering what you guys think ... hehehe

TKOPerformance

Not feasible. The weak area of the case is the space between the countershaft bore and the mainshaft bore. There's really nothign you could bolt on the the trans that would solve this problem. The only solution seems to be the upgraded G-Force case. This case is thicker in this area. Aftermarket companies also make upgraded Muncie cases with this same feature.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

But, I'm not seeing ANY T56 on their website rated at 750hp and costing that much. Can you give me a link to the trans you bought?

89TA383M5

So lets see. Less than 400 horse. Centerforce dual friction clutch. Bald BFG drag radials and a speed shift not a power shift blows 3rd... Is that really asking to much?

Shagwell

never looked at thier website myself, just the adds in hotrod and in the national dragster. - It's like $2100ish before shipping. Hardened input, steel shift forks, viper output shaft, etc........all new(even a new case).
- I haven't ordered one yet, just called and talked to one of their techs. I have a lot of other things to get done before I need a trans....

pm me if you have any other questions about this, as this is getting off topic...

89TA383M5

It looks like the guy was right. No help what-so-ever.