MaNiAk86

iTrader: (2)

i am planning on building a hsr355 with brodix200cc aluminm heads and ive been doing alot of research on how to pick the right cam and still have not found an off the shelf cam thatseems to fit just right.

i read an article in my popular hot rodding called "be the cam shaft expert" and it gave this cool formula and chart for determining optimal LCA and duration "off the seat"

i calculated that for 70 degrees of overlap(acceptable for a street motor) on a 355 with 2.02 valves the optimal lca is just under 108 and my optimum duration is 285.

the formula= to find the optimal lca divide engine displacement by the valve size, then number of cycliders. 355/2.02/8=107.95xxxx

then you take the desired valve overlap(determined by street or race use and handy chart) divde by 2. 70/2=35 add that to the lca 108+35= 143 then multiply it by 2 making my optimal duration (with a 108lca)285.

now i have to determine valve lift at the seat and the article did not cover how to determine optimal lift for rpm range. is there a "cam calculator" that you could put in your cubic inch, valve size, duration and lca to determine the most possible lift for the smallest amount of duration, because that is what gives you low end torque. high lift + shorter duration= torque down low

that is why using a higher ratio rocker helps. is tightens up the lca while giving more lift for the same duration.

that is what i gathered from this article. if i am incorrect please correct me as i want to create the perfect cam for my motor so i have 30-50 more hp than the next guy with an off the shelf "big" cam.

mike1986fyrbird

280rwhp/310ftlbs on a Mustang Dyno


The setup:
357ci
9.6~:1
HSR
Edelbrock Performer RPM 170cc/64cc heads
Comp XE268H-14 224/230 Hydraulic Flat Tappet(at the time)
Crane Gold 1.6 RR
Edelbrock Headers /w crappy y-pipe
3" TSP Rumbler catback
Pro Yank 3400 extreme converter
Stock tune with modded wot spark

The setup is far from optimal
Procomp distributor leaving oil residue in the cap(nothing but problems with this POS). The Y-pipe is 2" and is press bent. Possible misfire/spark breakup up top?? lean spikes.. which might be caused by the oily residue inside the distributor cap. Stock fuel tables were fairly rich with 11.5 being the lowest and an average of 12.2.

That will all be fixed this spring and i'll hit up the dyno again with the XE274H-10.

Times at the track at sea level for comparison purposes: 12.8@108mph 1.89 60'.

slickfbody

stock 350 bottom end
edelbrock centerbolt aluminum heads 165cc
comp cam 210 220 .5 .51 lift
hsr with 58 mm tb
1-5/8" shorties with 3 inch cat back
30 lb injectors and a pcmforless tune
= 315 rwhp 330 rwtq
= 13.2 in quarter @ 2200 feet

mike1986fyrbird

I wish I had a roller setup instead of a POS hydraulic tappet.

LD85

iTrader: (2)

Engine specs;
406-CI
Bullet Billet Custom Grind HR cam 233/233, 284/289, .576 lift w/1.6rr's
11:1 CR
68 CC, AFR 210 heads, 300 CFM @ .600 lift
Wiseco forged Pistons, Eagle Forged Rods, Cast Crank.
Centerforce 400 Crank Flywheel / Centerforce DF II Clutch
Flow Kooler Water pump w/ Dewitts Radiator
ZF 6 speed , Hurst Billet Shifter
3.45 rear gear
Hooker 2151 cut and rewelded to clear plugs
BBK 58 mm TB
FMS 24 # injectors
MSD 8366 Small Cap, MSD 6AL, MSD 8.5mm wires
Accell Shorty Plugs
86-89,,, 165/ECM

91RamAir Formula

LD85 you have any power numbers on this combo? And those 24lb injectors seem a little small ?

LD85

iTrader: (2)

Not yet, I have had a clutch slippage problem that I have been messing with, my trap speeds are still 115-116mph in the 1/4.

But my ET's were in the 12.7 range when I have run .5 second better than that in the past.

Re: the injectors, they are FMS injectors so they are really like 26 lb injectors due to I run them at @ 44PSI and FMS rates them at 25 @ 39 psi.

My data logs don't show any problem,, even at WOT they are not static



EDIT< Same setup less the head proting but WITH a Miniram was
385RWHP
405RWTQ

So I would hope the new setup would be @

400RWHP
410RWTQ

jjvette

Golen 383
HSR w/custom plenum
Trickflow Duttweiller heads
2.02/1.60 valves 64cc
comp cam xr276hr-12
.503/.510 lift
224/230 dur@.050
FMS 24lb/hr injectors
Summit 58mm tb
hedman 1-5/8 long tubes
3000 TCI stall
3.07 gears

before dyno tune :very lean
316 rwhp@5500
327 rwtq @4600

After 1st dyno tune:still lean after 5500
342rwhp @ 5500
353rwtq @ 4400

best 1/4 mi before dyno tune was 12.16 @ 112
no new times since dyno tune

John

MaNiAk86

iTrader: (2)

wow u guys are makin some huge power numbers with more cubes. i am hopin to get at least 330rwhp with my setup after a decent tune.

- also what is a good lca to run with a HSR? for decent street manners

Chris Etemadi

355 ci 6" rod 10.7:1 cr
dart 215cc heads
Cam motion 234/238 .580/.584 112 lsa hydraulic roller
1.6rr's
HSR 58 mm throttlebody
hooker 2210's dual 3" with X-pipe
factory stall, factory tranny
2.73 (gears came in the 4th gen rear)
custom tune: by me
no dyno #'s yet
ran a 12.36@ 116mph
I hope to get the car on a dyno so I can tune it on a wide band
Im thinking it should dyno ~360-390 and should definitely go ~11.7's with a 3600 stall, tranny built, and 3.73's What do you all think?
BTW nice numbers!

YenkoST

iTrader: (5)

CI-383
Comp-10.6
Custom XFI cam-22x/23x, .54x/.54x lift
Pro Mags 1.52 RR
AFR 195cc Eliminator heads
HSR with 58mm throttle body
32 lb/hr injectors (flow matched)
HSR intake runners deburred/polished
long tube 1 5/8" with 3" collectors
Edge 3000 stall
3.73 gears with 29" tire
In a 1990 Chevy truck

No dyno # or e.ts yet. I am wanting about 380rwhp or so out of it.

I have 112 lsa + 4 and it will idle all day long....very smooth and on efi I suggest a 112 lsa.

5.0 Eater

iTrader: (2)

383cubes
10.7-1 comp
comp cams xfi 230/238 .576 .570 W/1.6 roller rockers
etec 200 heads
vortec HSR W/58mm holley t.b.
30lb injectors
1 5/8 shorties W/3in cat-back
t56 with blowproof clutch
3.73 gears
165 computer
made 397 rwhp-412 tb tq
went 11.96 @ 114 mph

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

I like what im seein...I hope to be puttin numbers like this down..with my setup:

383 HSR
10.6:1
custom 226/232 531/537 113.5 LSA cam with 1.52 pro mags CC RR.
AFR 195 eliminators w/ revkit
58mm TB
30lbs injectors
1 3/4 super comps w/ open Borla
3.42's with 3400 stall


3400lbs with me in the car

got a 150 shot full NX wetkit from my old setup..

YenkoST

iTrader: (5)

Do you have a sound clip by chance? That's the cam I was thinking about putting in my 383 next.

V8Rumble

iTrader: (2)

Well, there are a couple things that you should realize here -

First, my recollection is that there's not going to be a HUGE difference in the area between two "off the shelf" cams, so unless you've got a fairly oddball setup (or one or more very non-standard requirements), you're not going to find that 30-50 HP by just picking a different cam than the other guy. (Unless his combo is flawed.) You may well be able to find a lot of it through a good tune though!

With that said however, you most definitely CAN find little ways to optimize your entire combo. If you can find 2-4 HP in a dozen different places, then you've achieved your goal. What does the engine do? It moves air, combusts a fuel-air mixture, creates & transmits torque, & exhausts the spent gases. Anything you can do to make any of those processes more efficient should reward you with more power.

Second, please don't fall into the trap of picking the cam for the engine without considering the rest of your combo - rear gears, tranny type, stall speed, intended usage, emissions legality... All of these may affect the choice you make. (I'm being forced into a somewhat smaller cam than I'd like because of local emissions requirements.)

I would agree with "YenkoST" - a 112 LSA is a good compromise between making power & keeping the ECM happy. If you have emissions testing where you're at, you might be stuck with a 224-226 duration (on a 355), but you can still go with all of the lift that your p/v clearance & lobe rates will allow...

I'm hoping that my 383 with the HSR, AFR 195 heads, etc. will give me just over 1 HP/ci...

Good luck.

(BTW, I have that issue of PHR - that camshaft article might be the single best piece of tech writing I've ever seen in a magazine - but keep in mind that it only addresses pure power, not driveability, mileage, tune-ability, EFI, emissions, etc...)

89formula350b2l

iTrader: (11)

on my old 350, with just the HSR headers TB and cat back 14.5 at 92.3 that was before the AFR 195cc heads and comp cam. after that i only made 274 RWHP and then motor blew up rod bearing blew.....

now i am gettign 385 with afr 195cc heads same comp cam shorty h eaders (swtiching to full length after iget it back) upgrading my 9 bolt 277 to 327 with working limited slip differential swtiching from mass airflow sensor to speed density and getting dual cat dual muffler 2.5 inch side exhaust hopefully thatll put me 380 rwhp and 400+ ftlbs RWTQ


hey V8Rumble it seems you and I have the same idea!!

89formula350b2l

iTrader: (11)

have you gotten a time for that combo yet? sounds like my ssetup and my engine isnt together yet.....i was also wondering if i could run 150 shot with that compression b/c thatll be my compression too....

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

Nope..havent even got it started yet..I just dropped the motor in the engine bay yesterday......I thought that Nitrous loves compression? the guy who cut the cam for me said that I can throw as much as I feel comfortable...but he may just have been talking about the cam..

Im just hoping for atleast 400+ on both ends..or close to it. desktop dyno shows to be above 500 at the crank on TQ/HP so I guess we'll see. I just want to be in the 11's ...for a street car thats FAST!!!

89formula350b2l

iTrader: (11)

o yeah no doubt.....what are you doing to your transmission? how are you beefing it up to handle the new power?

19doug90

which brodix heads are you using? brodix has a lot of dyno stuff on their website under the individual heads.

here is with the IK200's a very nice head. its with a carb but i would think the stealth ram could keep up every bit as much as a carb could.

COMP CAMS Hyd Roller Cam
Advertised Duration 293-299
.540 Lift Int--.562 Lift Exh
112 Centerline at 108.5
COMP CAMS Hyd Roller Lifters
COMP CAMS Roller Timing Chain
BARKER 7.150 5/16 Pushrods
CROWER 1.60 Int Rockers
CROWER 1.50 Exh Rockers

Flywheel horsepower numbers
568 at 6000 rpm
542 ft-lb Torque at 4700 rpm
Pulled the Engine to 6500 rpm
All on a Stuska Engine Dyno
REAL NUMBERS!

http://www.brodix.com/heads/tonydyno.html

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

holly crap!..now thats some serious power there!!..I wish I would do that much...maybe so...just have to wait and see but my cam is smaller..my advertised is 281/286

Trans work? I had it upgraded with heavy duty stuff about 2 years ago with a transgo shift kit...so Im hoping it will hold up...

V8Rumble

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, pretty close it sounds like! You might get a 2nd opinion on the size of that exhaust (might be just a bit small), but otherwise it sounds like a lot of fun!

89formula350b2l

iTrader: (11)

yeah i know 2.5 is choking the motor im gonna get 3 inch intermediate pipe either flowmaster or magna flow cant decide which one i want
----------

just a transgo shift kit? im hoping it will too man!! i only have a rebuilt on stock parts but pretty fresh....im thinking either pro built or TCI rebuild kit...

19doug90

imo that cam is too small for that motor, will make ti a bit more streetable

but im thinking youre gonna peak at like 5500 rpms with all that extra displacement, i know on my 355 im peaking at 6 with a cam a hair smaller then yours

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

i dont understand what your meaning? what is it your saying?

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

i know desktop dyno doesnt mean a whole lot but this is what it shows....someone on the board did this for me...i'll be happy with that...but who knows...

5.0 Eater

iTrader: (2)

no sound clips, but it sounds good, i hade the lt4 hot cam 218,228 525 525 before and if the engine was running fast at all, like at start up or if the timing was a little to fast, the loppiness of the cam would disapear. but the new cam is a little more agressive,noticable. The one thing i have have found out is that our cars never sound as lopey as the enemy (fourth gen ls1's,or mustangs) due to the complications running dual exaust.(real dual, not just ugly rusty pipes hanging/dragging under our cars)sorry guys just a pet peeve

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

hey what kind of power were you makin with the LT4 HotCam? Cause theres a guy over at stealtram.com that went 11.7 on an LT4 with 1.6rr and that was with a 3600+ lb car..
loppiness?..I heard an LT1 car with a y-pipe and borla exhaust that sounded pretty mean..granted thats an LT1 car but our HSR's are close to that if not the same, correct?

Massive loppiness would just mean the cam would make most of if not all of its power in the UPPER Rpm's? and not have alot down low?

Im just trying to understand all this..

thanks!

YenkoST

iTrader: (5)

Not necessarily. Lope comes from how big your duration/lsa vs. cubic inches mostly. If you have a 212/218 in a 383, you ain't going to have lope even with a 108 lsa but the same cam in a 305, it will have a lope to it. Doesn't mean that its all upper Rpms (that comes from duration/lsa/etc). Just kinda depends on the ability of the engine to breathe and the displacement of the engine.

LT1 cars have the same firing order so it would sound the same. The LSx have a different firing order. Ours is 18436572 to the lsx 18736542.....the good ol' 4-7 switch.

19doug90

well basically im running a 355 with a cam that is 224/230, and my powerband peaked at 6000, you have more cubes tho, which will put your powerband in a lower range with the same cam.

not to mention those heads you have definitly like rpm so i just think that your cam is a mismatch to the heads, and the cam will peak before the heads want to, which will cost you power in all sorts of ways.

mismatched combos are about the worst way to lose gobs of power.

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

MAN!>.dont tell me that? I shopped and shopped and they guy who cut the cam said it would be just fine.....i wasnt looking for a total upper RPM car......thats no fun on the street...

if your saying its a mismatch? then how come DD shows all that power? and yes I know DD isnt always right but its gotta be close.;;right?

LOL

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

Stock 305TPI with Peanut cam (car was an Auto), HSR, Hooker Shorty Headers, Borla muffler, no cats.
195rwhp/273rwtq

15.20@93mph (before the Headers and Borla)

19doug90

no fun on the street is relative, i guess its all in what youre looking for. Since you run an auto i guess it lets you run a smaller stall which is more streetable, and give you a little more torque stoplight to stoplight. Thing is i at least dont find this to be a super torquey intake, it seems to like the midrange and top end a lot better.

my powerband really comes in around 2800 and goes till 6, not super torquey but with a manual transmission i have no problem keeping my rev's in that power range and having it pull and pull and pull all the way to 6 is awesome.

your cam will probably give you a little more bark through the first 500rpm of the powerband, however imo it would drive me nuts if the power started to fall off at around 5500 rpms, id rather have it scream all the way to 6.

if its a custom grind then you might be allright, i just hope you have a ton of lift because thats what those heads are meant for.

as i always say theres two properties to airflow, volume and velocity, those heads are going to like a lot of volume (hp) at the expensive of a litle bit of velocity (tq) so if you have heads more aimed at horsepower and a cam more aimed at torque, a combo can fall of its face somewhere in the middle.

As long as you have lift numbers that are suitable to what the heads flow then you should be fine, i just think its a shame to give up 500 rpms up top for power down low when personally even with my crappy little combo and some expensive goodyears i have more power then i can put to the ground off the line.

YenkoST

iTrader: (5)

If your goals are 11's and DD then you will be there. That cam will put you into the 11's. It will pull till 6k and possibly more. Heck my 218/224 flat tappet will pull to 6k in my 383. Peak is more about 5300 though. Your fine.....your setup is great. Good luck finishing your build. My power band starts about 2G and up with the stock stall.....wish I had a 3k in there . Anyways, your good....not too much cam and not too little. I told ya when you got started over on camaroz28 to go either 224/230 or 230/236 and you got something in between......and plus your cam builder helped Holley design/dyno test the StealthRam so I bet he knows a little more than anybody else about the systems potential and likes/dislikes.

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

lol...yeah Yenko, ive been all over these boards with my build.
So youve heard about the guy who did my cam? how did u hear that he knows the HSR?.....when I spoke with him on the phone he sure talked a good game, he wasnt real keen on the springs of the AFR's that why he didnt go high on the lift but like I said he said I should be just fine..he was a BIG Canfield Heads pusher as he used to work and biuld those heads..I trust the guy ....Im stuck with what I got so I guess we'll see....i didnt run the cam straight up like he had it, I retarded it 1*..on that DD its retarded 2*
in the race sim it showed it running an 11.4 but I know thats in a perfect world but that was also with a 3600lbs car..mine is 3400 or less with driver.

19doug90, the lift on my cam is 531/537 and thats with 1.52's...I didnt want to get 1.6's and have to figure out the pushrods just to up my lift in the 560 range...i just want to get this thing done....and im running a 3400 stall

19doug90

well theres no arguement that it will be fast, its just my opinion. 1.6's would really wake that motor up, its just so many people end up plagued by mismatched combos. Your cam makes moderate lift and is aimed at the midrange of your pwoerband. Its just that the head and intake combo serve more towards 6000 rpm horsepower, and your cam is aimed at a bit more torque (considering its a 383, on a 355 itd be different) so you end up losing out on a little bit of top end power and a little bit of low end torque. Should have an awesome midrange the came just not suited to peak hp, which the heads are.

V8Rumble

iTrader: (2)

Looking at this discussion so far, I'm guessing that he'll be plenty happy with it - at least until the "Gotta have MORE!" bug bites (which it always seems to...)

I'm actually in the same boat - HSR intake, AFR 195 heads... And I'm going to "have to" stick a somewhat smallish (224/228) cam in there because of local emissions. I'm mostly OK with that though, because 1) the car is going to be a LOT faster than it was stock, and 2) I'm going to be learning tuning with the new combo, & I suspect that having a big hairy cam would only add to the complexity....

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

yeah...Im hoping to be happy with m project..im just hoping it goes ok when I fire it up and the cam should do me ok...I'll have the 150 shot hooked up if I want more.....should be ok to take on and beat most if not all LS1's and Cobra's around here.....im sick of all them...they even mess with me in my little V6....and they havent seen my car on the roads in the last year so they will be suprised when my little used to be 305 appears back on the road and spanks their ***!

YenkoST

iTrader: (5)

Yea, I talked to him about cams and the HSR and he told me along with a few people from Holley.

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

Cool!..I didnt know you had talked to Jay...he talks alot huh?...lol and seems to know what he's talkin about...I guess we'll see..but like I said he didnt like the AFR heads and even when I spoke with AFR they also know him and have heard of him and I didnt even say he's name they told me. I just wish he would have given me more lift but I m stuck with what I got....i'll be ok.

19doug90

well unless your springs cant handle the lift, i see no reason not to go to a 1.6. Regardless when you get the motor up and running see what it does, and if its not quite the numbers you wanted i bet youll pick up a hell of a lot of power through the entire rpm range with bigger rockers and more lift.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Stock internal 1989 L98 with 150K miles on it

HSR, 46 psi fuel pressure
Hooker 2055 shorty headers
3inch custom chambered tube catback
gutted cat
3.42 gears
2800 stall

made 246whp at 5050rpms. 284 tq at 4500rpms but peak should be near 300wtq at 3500 or so.

track times over stock TPI setup will be in tonight!

EDIT!!new times
13.58 at 98.7 mph in 70's degree july air. TPI best was 13.63 at 96.9 in November 50 degree air

91RamAir Formula

Here is my combo

383 8.5:1 compression
AFR 195's flowing 280@.600
CC306 hydraulic roller cam dur @ .050 I230 E244 lift I.544 E.576 w 1.6RR's
AFR rev kit
Ported stealth ram w stock TB
Hooker 1 3/4 long tubes dual 3" to mufflex 3.5 single
3.42 gears
3000 9" lockup stall
Megasquirt controlling fuel and spark.

no power numbers yet but I have run it a few times at the track.
best so far is 13.36@102 w a 1.89 60' in Denver correction is about 12.3@109
compression is low for planned future boost.
I'm currently looking for a deal on a TB to see if it will actually help?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

stock TB on that mkotor? it probly needs a 58mm. thats a nice cam/heads package for a 383.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

well i did improve to a 13.49 at 99.12 on a 1.77 60 foot.

new mods will be underdrive pullies and smog delete this week. Hope to be back soon after.

I also acquired some 15x8 weld prostars that i need to get slicks for, and hope to eventually get some skinnies up front. i hope to see a very good gain from this weight reduction.

89formula350b2l

iTrader: (11)

looks pretty close to my combo.....your cam is a step up from mine...slightly better prolly lil more hp but slightly less torque

just to let you know i went from bbk TB to the accel TB and i gained ab 10 rwhp and ab 10 rwtq by just bolting it on....im sure you will see ALOT bigger of an improvement if you went straight to the accel TB

RevItUpZ28

iTrader: (1)

Was the bbk a 58mm? I've heard a lot of people running the accel. What is the main difference between it and a regular 58mm from holley or bbk?

89formula350b2l

iTrader: (11)

other than a brand new accel TB costing twice as much? The accel TB is a two piece design and is longer than the BBK. Plus its color matches my HSR better in color. But on a serious note, the accel sits a lil bit lower and is longer and i dont see many other third gens with them on.

old z mzn

iTrader: (1)

1.96 60 ft. time 1.74 w/ tpi
12.89 1/4 time 106.5 mph 13.13 103.1w/tpi
383 9.00 to 1 compression
Comp XE268H-14 224/230 Hydraulic flat tappet
stock heads reworked by me 1.5 roller rockers
2200 stall 700r4
4.10 rear

vwdave

358 ~9.1 compression
AFR 195's
HSR w/custom rails and 42# injectors
Comp 224/230 .570"/.570" 4/7 swap HR12 (Man, was that a ***** to get) I had to know someone who knew someone to get comp to make that cam.
FAST XFI

I know thats kinda vague. I have a ton of little crap that doesnt severely affect horsepower. But I am guessing 325-330whp, hoping for 350, but doubting it. When its ttime for the Dart block and S400 turbo, Im going to try for about 700whp. But thats not till next year sometime.....