dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

So the title says it all. What F.I. setups are there out there that are full turn key that are OK with forced induction? I am not ready for the blower right now, but I will want it in the future. I want to swap to F.I. right now. Sick of my carb. Can't get it tunned right, and don't wanna pay a shop to do it either if I am just going to eventually swap over to turbos anyways, and those I will want breathing though F.I.

I really like the FAST carb to F.I. swap setup, but it is not forced induction ready. Are there any out there that are just like that, but are forced induction ready?

I know people on here talk about stealth rams a LOT, but is there a place to buy EVERYTHING you need to get that going? Or do you still need to get injectors here, a computer there, and so on?

Thanks for any help.

- Dennis

tom86iroc

iTrader: (1)

i have the fast XFI not installed yet till my motor is ready but they sell everything u need to install for forced induction comes with computer and you just need to get the right parts "harness injector harness " and so forth i think they sell injectors to just gonna need a laptop to tune it no such thing as turn key with aftermarket w/o tuning it

battmann

iTrader: (9)

i have an old school B&M superjection kit on my 350. it was a 1000 CFM EFI specifically made for use with blowers. only problem is they are really hard to find since they haven't been made since the mid-90's. i like it because the computer is analog. all you have to do to adjust the settings is turn the dials. you might be able to piece together a system from this guy: http://www.auto-nomics.com/index.html
he's the only person i know of that sells parts and / or repairs these systems. he also deals with FIRST and Megasquirt.

tom86iroc

iTrader: (1)

wow that thing is neat never saw one of those before

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Very cool, but I def want to find something relevant and still made new. Don't want to run into the "no one makes this part anymore" type issue later down the road.

Thanks for the heads up. Maybe I will call ACCEL, Edelbrock, FAST and others to see what I can find.

There must be something that is a good EFI convertion that lets you do forced induction.

tom86iroc

iTrader: (1)

they are all good conversions just all need to be tuned for boost or whatever your appication may be

New2Chevy

iTrader: (11)

www.massfloefi.com

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

If your posting starts to turn into advertising I will delete your posts.

-- Joe

New2Chevy

iTrader: (11)

K

New2Chevy

iTrader: (11)

I contacted the guys at massflo, and they explained some stuff to me. It all makes sense now. I thought the massflo efi would spark more of an interest, but maybe I'm wrong. I think it's worth checking out, myself. I'm still going to slap one onto my 305, stock, and see what happens, then I'll mod the 305, then I'll slap it onto my 383, when it's done. Can't wait to see how well it works.

AC

iTrader: (3)

The systems I know of out there, there are none that are truly a one stop, buy it all and turn the key type of setups. You may get lucky and buy 3 at the minimum setups that will work together to get you into the FI realm of EFI. Megasquirt, Big Stuff 3, Fast XFI are the 3 systems I can think of where the EFI side is taken care of. The other big factor in this though is what type of FI are you thinking of? Blow through carb or true FI / EFI like a Procharger or Turbo? I'd lean one way or the other depending on the type of induction you choose.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I guess converting back to 91-92 style ecm/harness/sensors/wiring and using code $59 for boost is out of the question?

AC

iTrader: (3)

Orr89RocZ, I didn't mention that option, but Thats the setup I'm using and its easy, cheap, definetly expandable. Look what junkcltr is doing with the $8d code, FINALLY after all these years someone is looking to incorporate >100Kpa into the code.

New2Chevy

iTrader: (11)

Again, I'm baffled.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

On what?

New2Chevy

iTrader: (11)

I'm baffled with all the code stuff above and also the Massflo system. It seems like a worthwhile efi system to look into. I talked to the owner of Massflo, and this MAF efi system sounds awesome because it seems that it would eliminate so many tuning issues. You get a MAF for two groups of injectors and according to your engine displacement, and it's that simple. The owner told me there is a MAF for like 18 to 30 lb injectors and then one for 30 to 42+ lb injectors, and it's that simple. If there are MAJOR changes made to the engine, the MAF may need to be sent into Massflo for reprogramming, but their MAF system can handle a broad range of mods with no problems and no need for tuning or reprogramming of anything. Weird.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

It's because it directly measures airflow, and targets specific AFR's based on throttle percentage. Makes sense.

That's why guys are switching to LSx ECM's with the MAF.

Map is great for stock applications, and applications with cams up to around 224/230 degrees duration, and boosted applications.

On motors with huge cams, and even supercharged builds a good aftermarket or LSx/Vortec MAF setup works well.

-- Joe

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

I will def not be going back to stock type stuff. Mass flow will be the way I go. After hearing people say they tried this "code" and that "code" to get their setups just right I never want to have to do that type of thing again. I will also not consider anything that is not an entire turn key system that works under NA and booste.

If all I have to do is swap injectors, send my ECM to get re calibrated and slap on the supercharger or turbos, I think that the system sounds lightyears ahead of anything I have ran into so far.

I have never had my car running quite right with a carb, and even when I had it at its best it was annoying due to the cam I have. When the motor was cold, the carb would have no clue what to due. Also another major problem I have had was float slosh. I have C5 brakes and when I slam on them realy hard, the car has great stopping power, the fuel in the rear bowl would slosh into the barrel out of the vent and shut the car off.

I am confident that this F.I will solve just about all my griped I have with my ride.

New2Chevy

iTrader: (11)

I agree. I do know that a lot of guys here can tune very well with their other setups. I'm just not too into spending time tuning my car. I enjoy driving it more.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I'm not sure how the massflo system can guarantee no tuning needed. How does it setup driveability parameters like throttle input and acceleration pump shot? How does it do timing tables?

What kind of MAF can read that much airflow for a boosted application? How well can it correct fueling vs fuel pressure rise as boost comes on?

Those are some of my concerns with that system

New2Chevy

iTrader: (11)

I've been researching this, too, bro. I do know that if you have n/a and switch to forced induction, you have to send the MAF back to them for recalibration or whatever. YOU don't have to tune anything, but it does need to be changed by SOMEONE, but they do it all. You just bolt stuff in. The owners of Massflo (2 brothers) would be happy to explain it to you, if you call them. I talked to one of them the other day, and he's a great guy. I know they include a tweaked factory ecm with their ecm. I'm sure that has a lot to do with the success of the system. Whatever the heck it is, I know they're getting it patented. They're very busy. They sell 50 or so systems each week. I called and left a voicemail message, and they called me back in less than two hours. I'm stoked to try it on my 305 project and then my 383 beast.

AC

iTrader: (3)

Wow, I'd love to see a system that requires ZERO user input i.e. tuning. That'd be plug and play for people that don't care to learn how to tune. There's certainly a market for that sort of thing. Massflo have a website? I'd be curious to see what that offers versus XFI, Tunerpro, Tunercat and the other industry standards.

I read the first post and the HSR does come as a complete setup with harness,injectors,ecm (of some sort) and the intake setup. The price is right up there with a FAST system (2500+) The Holley MPFI (summit part # 91403201 ) is just as I described.

New2Chevy

iTrader: (11)

www.massfloefi.com yeah, no kidding.....I think it's hard for many guys to believe because they're so used to tuning problems, for the past 20 or more years. The other thing I like is that the system has a vintage look to it. Many guys might not like this, but I sure do. No, I am not old. I'm 35...he he.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Well if they do the tuning and mail it back its like a mail order tune ecm kit. May not require user input but there is someone that inputs stuff so its not totally an end all plug and play unit I'm sure its very accurate, or atleast accurate enough but I"m the guy that wants to know whats goin on with the car and how everything works together. Thats why I'm learning to tune everything myself

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

And then you woke up.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

It's not hard for us to believe it because we've had problems. It's because we're not retarded.

The system is initially tuned. They ship it to you. You pray the load tables are close enough that everything works with the MAF. It's no different than paying a tuner to do a prom for you.

There are some projects that do a pretty good job learning the fuel tables with a wideband 02 input.. How do you learn spark tables? How does the ECM choose which curve is the best?

How does the ECM decide what idle speed is the best?

What temp do you want the fans on or off? Does the ECM pick one for you?



Don't get me wrong. Massflo is good stuff, just like any other aftermarket. I like it because it has a highflow MAF that exceeds the OE thirdgen MAF.
But I know how to tune, I know how computers work, I know how programs work. I know the limitations. They market it as magic to those who simply don't know.

-- Joe

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

yep

AC

iTrader: (3)

ANY system is going to require some amount of user interaction whether it be the tuner or the end user. Learn how to do it and save some serious money. No system is fully / truly turn key otherwise they'd have one HUGE market share as the "easiest" system on the market.

New2Chevy

iTrader: (11)

I am glad for all the input from you guys! Thank you to all of you. I respect the guys who have a wealth of tuning knowledge. Honestly, I am more of a "mechanical" kind of guy, but I can learn tuning if I have to. I am going to try the Massflo system for a number of reasons. First, my engine will rev higher than tpi, allowing for more power, just like the other aftermarket efi intake setups, and I can pick the intake manifold I want, too, and that's cool. Second, it's easier/simpler, for me, than Speed Density or stock MAF, based on all the tuning research I've done and also based on the fact that I am tired of tuning (I've done a lot of it on Dodge cars, Chevys, Fords, and imports both forced induction and N/A, and I'm tired of it, to be honest, and I HATE messing with wires and fuel maps all the time. I really don't want to be tempted to tweak with the thing and try to "maximize" the tune, which is what I am tired of doing. One car I had was a 440 whp Dodge SRT-4, which I built myself, that NEVER seemed to run optimally, except for a few blissful moments that occurred. I mean, the dang thing was FAST, but I just knew I could squeeze more power out of my 50 trim turbo setup, and it drove me nuts, and I was always tuning and tweaking and researching. I've been doing that for too long, and I hope this product just kicks butt and takes care of itself, basically. Third, it's about the same price as the Stealth Ram, Edelbrock Pro Flo, etc., and I won't need to worry about a laptop, proms, circuit boards, codes, etc. With other systems, I'll always be tempted to spend more money for better stuff and dyno tuning, etc. I know myself very well. Fourth, it looks vintage, better (in my opinion) than the other systems, a plus for me. Last, not many third gen Camaro guys seem to have this system, and I want to try it out and report how it works and reveal some pros and cons of the system. I am hoping there aren't any cons and only pros, but that's wishful thinking, and I realize this. In short, I am dying to get my Camaro and start wrenching again, and, of course, I am excited to try a new efi system.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Well I agree with some views that you have New2Chevy. I really just want to drive my ride. I have spent enough time screwing around with it. I really don't want to bother tunning it. This is DEFINETLY the last motor I will ever build/buy that will not be a turn key style OEM motor. I will be using LS3s or something like that from now on. Proven OEM tunning. Then add small booste to that if anything.

Anyone know how massflow will respond to an N20 plate under it? I am still a few months of research away from making a choice on what to get. I just want to get as damn close to a turn key setup as possible.

New2Chevy

iTrader: (11)

Your best bet would be to contact the guys at Massflo, and I know you can use nitrous with these systems, without problems. The one owner with whom I spoke was cool and spent a long time on the phone with me answering my various questions. They're good guys, and they sell about 50 of these systems a week, so a nitrous questions is nothing new to them. www.massfloefi.com

Mass Flo EFI, INC
77 Snow Road
West Brookfield, MA 01585
336.644.8668

Shinobi'sZ

It's interesting because I deleted the MAF on my TTZ06 and switched over to a 3bar MAP sensor tuned with HPTuners Speed Denisty software...my Z06 drives like a stock Z06 out of boost with Head & Cam Comp Xer 224/224 .581 114lsa (Heads are 77cc Stage II LS6) and I have made 1K hp with this setup. But that was just to show people on a dyno what the capabilities of my TT system were/are. I drive around on 9#s and out of boost (under 2800 rpms) my car drives OEM.....in boost it pulls like one would feel if riding a 2 stroke dirt bike or GSXR 1000 (powerband feeling).

I think the MAP is great for FI setups.

sleepybu

I've been eyeballing these two systems...

http://www.professional-products.com/EFI_3.php



http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PFS-72030/

New2Chevy

iTrader: (11)

Simply put, as long as whatever system you're using gets the right amount of fuel to match the airflow, at the right times, the car will run correctly. The question is how much tuning will be required, in order to get this to happen, especially when mods are introduced.

New2Chevy

iTrader: (11)

I prefer a more efficient, precise sequential port fuel injection, over a throttle body fuel injection setup, but no offense to the professional products guys.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

I agree with that. Port FI is more precise. It has to be. You have 8 inputs as opposed to just 4. And the point of injection is far closer.

With that said, the headache might not be worth it if we are talking about minor drops in HP/ TQ and driveability.

New2Chevy

iTrader: (11)

The Massflo system needs some user input, yes, but it's already done and preprogrammed, when you buy the system, then the system fine tunes itself with the O2 sensor, etc. To me, it makes sense to have the thing ready to install, and it costs really close to the same as the HSR or other setups out there, and I won't need to spend tons of time and/or money getting it tuned on dynos, burning chips, etc. AGAIN, nothing against guys who like to tune. Me....I'm tired of tuning.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Well I really like this thread, nice to see people posting other setups. I will be calling all of them and finding out the fact this week. I will post my findings.... Pros, Cons.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Yes, if you re-read my post your combo fits in exactly where I said MAP setups work well. 224 degree cam, boost. Heck, 224 degree cam on 114 should almost run like stock

When you mess with huge cams MAP becomes a handicap at idle, part throttle. Boost is boost, anything over 100kpa is going to work fine on MAP with the appropriate sensor.

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

You don't understand enough about what your talking about.

OEM cars do the same thing. That's what closed loop is. The ECM uses stores the learned cell corrections and references those.

Unfortunately, life isn't that easy. AE can't tune itself. Spark maps can't tune itself.

I think it's a pipe dream.

It's probably a good system. But it's not turn key. That is just plain silly.

-- Joe

sleepybu

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PFS-72030/

New2Chevy

iTrader: (11)

Hey, I'm not pretending to know a lot about tuning with these cars' ECMs or with any MAF system or other systems. I have admitted that I am more of a mechanical kind of guy (I think that was in another thread). All I am saying is that the Massflo, no matter the drawbacks of it, if any, seems to be a good choice for a guy like me or other guys who are tired of tuning with other systems. I do know enough to realize that it is a sequential port fuel injection system that is more efficient and provides more "precise" fuel delivery than TBI or Carb, and is, therefore, money well spent. And I'll say it again.....once I bolt the darn thing onto my engine, I'll post what happens here on the forums. If it works well, great. If not, then that's that. It'll be good information, either way. The two guys in town here went with the Massflo on their hot rods, and they both love the setup, and they have done ZERO tuning. These guys have been building cars for as long as I've been alive, and if they're happy with the system, then I'm guessing I will be. We shall see.

New2Chevy

iTrader: (11)

Sleepybu, You should get the powerjection II system and post your results, and I'll get the Massflo and post my results. That would be cool.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

I want to learn more about each system. They seem to have a lot of differences. Some come with a dizzy, some don't and some have MAF, MAP etc... there seems to be a lot of variables.

I have a HUGE cam in my car, it won't be like that forever though. When I swap to boost I will have to swap cams, that is a given. Hell I might even just swap motors at that point since LS motors take boost sooo much better than old SBCs.

The way I see it is that I can buy a nice F.I setup right now, run it on this motor, then down the line buy a short block built LS motor, buy a SC or turbos and swap the electronics and just have to buy a new intake. That way I can absorb the cost of the F.I. now and save $ later on the more modern motor that I think we all know makes power much easier than a SBC.

I know these kits just seem to run on whatever you slap them on as long as you got the right intake and the companies seem to sell LS intakes for these setups alllready, so it looks like a best of both worlds to me.
F.I. now to help me with my carb problems now, and a carry over setup that I can run on my future motor when I leave the 400HP range and start playing in the big boy 600 or 700 HP range.

New2Chevy

iTrader: (11)

Sounds fun, for sure! With turbos it's all about the tune, just like any other setup. I would call Massflo and talk to them about their efi system. It really looks like the most appealing system, from all the systems I've looked at. If you switch to forced induction, you just get a new program from Massflo, based on your setup. There's no guesswork and no spending hours and hours and more money on tuning. I can't wait to post results for the Massflo here. I'm still waiting to get the money to purchase the system. I'm guessing it will work perfectly. Chris at Massflo told me he gets a lot of calls from guys who argue with him about timing issues and MAF tuning and all sorts of stuff. Even guys who buy the system call and dispute where the ignition timing should be set, when the instructions say where to set it, for their cars. When they do it their own way, the system doesn't run optimally, but when they follow the instructions, the system performs very well. The guys who buy the system sometimes act like they designed the dang thing when they argue with the guys who developed it. Funny.

sleepybu

I've been thinking about it

NatesZ/28

Dont forget to tell us how awesome it is before you even have tried to use it and know if it holds up to its marketing hype or not...

New2Chevy

iTrader: (11)

I'll just post the results, plain and simple, after I try the system out. I was suggesting that the other guy post results on the Powerjection II, and I'll post my results with the Massflo...this way, guys can see and have more information. Just trying to help out and post more information about these newer systems that are out there.

sleepybu

what hype

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

WHY DOES THE INTERNET SUCK!!!!


People please stop trying to belittle each other and try and help one another.






What is the best F.I system to use when going twin turbo lets say?

My camaro is already built up from when I was in highschool, but I am now out of colledge and want to move to the next level. No more juice and stuff like that. Time for booste.... I think turbos are the best way to go in termd of being able to tune for more power later. I can weld too, so intake pipes and all that is nothing to me. Custom headers will be hard though. I am thinking of tacking it up and having a real welder finish it. Trying to save some $ and get exactly what I want.

ANways, back on topic, For this build I want all the details figured out, or at least as good as possible. Sooooo..... what F.I. do people recomend for what I want. I will of course double check anything that anyone says in here with the manufactuer, but lets find out all the people I should be calling.

Thanks.

-Dennis