QUICKCHICKEN

iTrader: (12)

which FAST system would you go with? if your planning power adders then go with the XFI 2.0, if your going stright forward then go for the EZ system. i have one and love it.

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

I using the stock ECM with a custom tune. I say just keep the cam you have. With your 383cu your may be around 425-440whp @ 6400 with a Miniram. HP may be a little less but the TQ will be much higher atleast 450wtq.

88BlackZ-51

iTrader: (2)

Give me a chance with some more tuning and exhaust changes.

I will say that I havent heard many 406's in 3rd gens trapping 127 with a smallish cam? If it weighs 3700 lbs that motor must be around 500rwhp and we all know how hard that is (espcially with 195's).

I am not saying I dont believe it but it's almost too good to be true. Stock C6 Z06's weigh around 3100 without driver and prob average around 122-124 mph with the LS7 powerplant.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Its 3400-ish lbs and put down 521whp thru ported AFR 195's which now are really 208-210cc that flow almost 310cfm 248/254 solid roller. Car just went 10.47 at 131 mph all motor thru a T56

I will dyno my car all motor with 245cc and 246/252 hyd roller cam to see what it does with crappy exhaust, low compression, and restricted TB inlet Should be interesting

88BlackZ-51

iTrader: (2)

That's more like it, ported afr's, solid roller etc.....

We arent comparing apples to apples.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"That's more like it, ported afr's, solid roller etc....."

I agree. I bet the pushrod pinch was opened up.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Well before it was old AFR 195's non-eliminators that were ported from 260's cfm to 286cfm and it went 127 mph with a 242/242 solid roller and miniram. Now its ported even more, with victor EFI single plane and bigger cam. Forgot to mention its previous history, but the heads were in the 195-200cc range back then when it went 125-127mph. Thats still in the 440-450whp range I'd think, maybe as low as 430's, but I was at 400 with similar weight and went 119 in summer so it should have been 120-121 in winter air. 3-4mph would be 30-40whp more

88BlackZ-51

iTrader: (2)

And a single plane that prob moves more air then my miniram.

Thanks for the info. Whenever I hear about some combo that performs better then most I tend to ask a few questions and then it all makes sense when I hear the total combination.

Like I said not apples to apples. My 421 is as smooth as my stock L-98 when you get past the cam surge which still needs to be tuned. It really is a very civilized, low maintenace motor......

More to come soon when I make a simple exhaust change.

In saying all that 131 mph is hauling the mail n/a!!!!

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

He said the old, non eliminator 195s, ported.


The eliminator 195s are 600hp capable. Heck, I've put down more than 550hp with sportsman II's.

-- Joe

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"The eliminator 195s are 600hp capable"

Stock out of the box? I think the airspeed at the pushrod pinch would exceed the speed of sound. Maybe 550hp would be a better goal to try and achieve.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I think Big Joe made 600 on a 383 with 195's eliminators but I think he touched them up alittle

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"but I think he touched them up alittle "

I think so to. I am thinking about purchasing some AFR 210s from Joe that have been "touched" up. They are out of his sons car and they made 680hp with a single 4 barrel and I think he said 720 with two 4 barrels on a tunnel ram. Going by tomorrow morning for a good look at them.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Sounds alittle optimistic with a 210 head depending on how opened up they are Either way they should make good power.

88BlackZ-51

iTrader: (2)

I havent seen any "as cast" 195's making 600chp. I guess its possible with enough CR and camshaft. If I can make 550/580 at the crank when all the dust settles I will be tickled pink.

BTW, What exactly does Sherman do with say a set of 195 comp ports to make them more efficient and is this big bucks?

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"BTW, What exactly does Sherman do with say a set of 195 comp ports to make them more efficient and is this big bucks?"

Not sure but I can guess. By the way the other day he said mine have been the only set of AFR 195 Comp ports he has sold.

88BlackZ-51

iTrader: (2)

I am suprised because the 195 comp ports have been a good seller for AFR, and I know numerous of guys with them.

Let's here your guess then.....

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Check your pm's. I have to have some speed secrets you know. I can't let the local crowd get to close to me.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

IMO for 2g's the comp ports arent worth the cost over the street 195 or 210s. I'd love to see what difference a comp 196cc head makes over a 210cc street port head.

Its the same deal with profiler 195 and 210's. The 210 is just basically a 195 with the short side layed back and some extra port shaping to make it cc out at 210 and enlarge the pushrod pinch. Speier racing sells primarily 210cc profilers since a motor that will work well with the 195's, will also work with the 210s. There wont be any loss with the 210's so might as well just run 210's for the same cost. Get alittle more growth out of the head in case you change things. The port velocities are similar so both work well on any application.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Like I said, I've made more than that with junky sportsman II heads.

You put too much head on a motor it's going to run like a turd on the street. Especially in a manual trans.

-- Joe

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Okay, just got back from Joe Shermans shop and eyeballed the AFR 210 heads he has for sale. As I stated Joe said they had been modified and they were by sleeving the pushrod area and removing that material from the pinch area. Also they have been touched up in other areas and one obvious one was removing the AFR vane. I also took some measurements.

The throat is 1.87" which is virtually identical to the inside diameter of my runners. The pushrod pinch is 2.279in"/sq accounting for the 3/8" radius in each corner. Here are the flow numbers using Joes flow bench with no pipe on the exhaust.

Lift/Intake/Exhaust

.200" 153/108
.300" 212/174
.400" 260/203
.500" 293/212
.600" 312/217
.700" 316/219

So I think they are just about perfect for the goals I am trying to achieve. I went ahead and made the purchase. On my motor the lift is .594" so the .700" lift is of no consequence to me. The airspeed is down into a more reasonable range so I should be able to more easily access it. As to the air flow the fast spot will be at the pinch area with everything else a smooth transition.

Hey Vincent, just trying to keep your thread alive.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Sounds good, that head must be close to a AFR 220 now but with better air speeds throughout the port? That CSA is alittle larger than what I'd expect the 210 head to be at

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

The stock AFR 195 head is about 1.9Xin/sq at the pushrod pinch. I measured a friends AFR 210 head and it is about 2.089in/sq at the pushrod pinch. I saw where a AFR220 head was 2.4in/sq at the pushrod pinch but I am not sure if that had the radius in the corners accounted for. If not than it is identical to the head I just bought from Joe in that regard.

I like the way Joe made the pinch area larger by using the sleeve method and removing that portion of the pinch wall. It gives the airflow a somewhat straighter path to the intake valve. Yes you are right, I bet they will pour about 220cc.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Thats good then, I cant wait to see those results...you got a lot goin on, and havent even tested stage 1 of this project Now you have planned new heads into the mix along with 2 different intakes.

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

Sound like you will be selling your heads to me soon! I do have the money on hand now if the price is right.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"Sound like you will be selling your heads to me soon! I do have the money on hand now if the price is right."

Talk to you soon. Allen

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"You put too much head on a motor it's going to run like a turd on the street. Especially in a manual trans."

Yes, however IMHO with long tube runners and EFI you will have more wiggle room. With a carb and short runners you don't have the wiggle room.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I will post my results with huge heads on a low comp 401 Plan to run it n/a on the dyno to tune the rpm ranges. Cam is fairly big too but not huge to match the heads and definately not a n/a type cam. Its more than enough cam to use the higher 6000's rpm range tho which the heads will want. I dont expect it to be that much of a turd but we shall see. everything about the setup makes you think it will be lazy but I got a feeling with the well balanced head port, it wont be too bad

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"I got a feeling with the well balanced head port, it wont be too bad"

It will be an interesting test. Do you plan on putting it on a chasis dyno?

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Car craft did this test years ago, which made more power big heads or big cam?
Wonder if its on the web some place..

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Normally I wouldnt have, but since my buddy just opened up a shop near where my car is stored, i dont have to go far to get tested, so I will put it on and maybe do 3 pulls or so. Wont waste too much time with it. Street tune will dial in the air fuel ratio and I'll just get a baseline to see how much it picks up on boost. Keep in mind tho, the exhaust will be FAR from optimal and the intake may still be restricted abit with the throttle body unless i get a 90mm or something. I need to track one down or else I may use the stock LS1 TB for now

88BlackZ-51

iTrader: (2)

wouldnt mind reading that.....

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

It could go either way but I'll favor big heads/smaller cam over small heads/big cam any day. Think cc306/gm847 type cams (230-232 deg intake, 240's on exhaust) on stock LT1 heads...~360whp. Not bad for a stock head. Now look at AI ported heads, and AI's mild cam combos...220-224-ish deg cams that are a step above LT4 hotcam. They can make same hp without all the radical cam overlap and choppy idle.
Same with LS1/LS2/LS3 etc. They use big valves/big ports on the later gen stuff with small cams and make power. Its generally the same pattern used in EMC engine contests. Relatively large valve, large lift cams with shorter seat durations. basically jerking valve open incredibly fast. Some guys run over .800" lift for 2500-6500 rpm ranges!!

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

car crafts test was a older one but the stock block with the larger heads/small cam made more power than a small head/big cam.. just like the LS stuff does today..
duh huh???

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Well that is true, but we're talking minirams right, which is what a 3 1/2" runner?

-- Joe

SuperRamFormula

iTrader: (1)

I'm judgeing from your comments you are a believer in the mini ram intake over the superram. With the set up I have now my 87 Formula went 12.30 @ 109. It was last dynoed with 335rwhp @ 5,500 and 375rwt @ 4,600. Thats with a 3.27 & 2,800 stall. Part of the reason I'm thinking of making the change is I have so much low end torque its all about traction. I figured by switching to the mini ram or HSR I could move my torque curve up and flatten it some and hopefully get a 11.99 out of the car. Tpsi thinks by installing their cam and mini ram should be good for about 60rwhp. I do like the numbers your putting down with the comp cam you have. It seems to be a popular cam I have seen other using it. Still watching ebay for a used mini ram. Thanks for your thoughts.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

peak torque seems high in the rpm range, especially compared to the hp peak at 5500. I dont know your whole combo, it sounds like its restricted at 5500 rpm with the intake and maybe heads too. Miniram should improve rpm range to 6000+ if the cam is big enough. 4600 rpm peak torque would make me guess peak hp was over at or over 6000. My 383 with HSR was flat between 4000 and about 5000 rpm for torque, so call it peak at 4000 and it peaked hp at 6250 and held to 6600+. Short runner stuff makes for a broad power band.

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

You will see a big difference if you put a Miniram on it. I wish we had sea level tracks in Socal so we can see the max performancein our cars. But we are still learning. One thing I can see is TPI cars with mods doesn't need too much gear above 3.42's like the C4 Vetts. Trying to get the average TPI engine to peak at 6000 takes a lot of work and money. Most peak around 5600 and that's where the the car was going through the traps @ 112mph with 3.73 gears. I think with 3.42' would be better and maybe trap @ 114-115mph. What do you guys think? Remember this was with the Super Ram not with the Miniram.

SuperRamFormula

iTrader: (1)

Sorry I was a little off on my rpm's. I just looked at my dyno 334@5200 rwhp and 409@4100 rwt. My motor is apart at the moment but, my set up was a 383, superram intake upper and lower, 58mm accel t.b., slp 1 3/4, headers, flowmaster 3" system. AFR 190 angle plug heads 10.5:1, accel/lingenfelter cam 219,219/.525,.525, .560 with 1.6 roller rockers. Stock ECM with a Fomato custom chip. Engine had great midrange power but lacking in the top. I'm looking to change that. While the motor is apart I figure might as well try to make it a little faster. I have read some very good numbers for the HSR and mini ram intakes. I have also thought about having the superram base manifold ported out and changing cams, also trying to free up the exhaust some, like a dual "y" pipe and maybe a 4" system. Also thinking about changing to a Fast or the LS1 ecm system.

SuperRamFormula

iTrader: (1)

Sounds like you got a real good running car that I bet is a blast to drive with a manual trans. I'm leaning tords changing to a mini ram or hsr and probably camshaft. If I need more gear I have a Dana 44 with a 3.45 I can swap in. Is your car a factory manual or did you install it. I have considered installing a 5 or 6 speed. I love driving manual cars, I just don't want to deal with all the b.s to install one.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

yeah with the miniram and those heads, you could use more cam. I'd make sure the valve springs are up to the task of the current cam tho. Are you getting any valve float in the higher 5000 rpm range? Did you take it that high on the dyno?

I've played around with a 280xfi cam on afr 190's in a friends car that had stock AFR springs in it that were only around 120lb seat pressure and it got nasty float above 5800. You need good stiff springs and great kit is the patriot extreme gold spring kit for 285 bucks for the 11/32" valve stems. (the lt1 kit, since the ls1 kit is for 8mm valves) They are about 155lbs on the seat.

If it peaked at 5600 and you went thru the traps at 5600, you were doing pretty good on your gearing. 3.73's is about perfect for that combo. Most optimal drag times are found with gearing that allows you to cross the line at peak hp or slightly above.
If you peak at 6000 now, you will want to cross near 6000-6200 or so. Now if the motor picked up alot more average power with the miniram, it may now trap higher than 112 so gear accordingly but i dont think going to the numerically lower gear will help. If anything, the new combo may want same 3.73 or 3.90-4.11's.

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

Do you think I need a taller slick? I have a 26-10.5.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Should beable to hook up on that size. Thats all the bigger I ever used but I have a softer launching automatic, but its still been 1.4 60 foots. I'd run it again with the new intake and get an idea what it traps and what rpm it hits and make changes from there. It may not need anymore gear but certainly wouldnt take gear out

SuperRamFormula

iTrader: (1)

Doesn't feel like the valves are floating. To be honest I'm not sure what my seat pressure is but, when I ordered them I told them what cam was going in it and did invest in titanium retainers. I normally shift between 5400-5800. Engine revs no problem just you can feel the power flattening out in the upper rpm's. I would like to change that. Need some top-end blast. If I don't beat the car I'm racing by 3/4 track I won't. Thanks for the info.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Probably stock superram then that is limiting top end. Titanium retainers help alot but I'd be curious what the springs are that are in the head if you go to a new cam.

I'd atleast try a miniram or HSR with the same cam and see what it does. It really should extend hp above 5200 and carry to 6K fairly well.

SuperRamFormula

iTrader: (1)

I will definatly invest in new springs, new cam or not. They have been on the car for 10 years.

Sojer

this engine is my background on my phone was my wife and son

Sojer

More pictures

ULTM8Z

Not a third gen, but here's mine on a 2nd gen...