89rs454

3rd gen Camaros, new age Muscle car, but power of a bobtruck. The last of the muscle car bunch. 4th and 5th gens look like Sedan power of a muscle car.

JimmyDavidson

Technically neither. But I consider it a mix between the two. To me 3rd gen is the end of the transition period. 67-73 f-bodies were the muscle/pony cars. 74-81 cars started the transition, but remained mostly muscle. 82-92 was the end of the transition, and with mostly sports car styling. 93-02 cars were in my mind all sports car. 5th gen is not an f-body, nor sports car, nor muscle car.

That's my opinion on the different gens, and although I designed my Camaro to contain aspects mostly from the muscle car era, I don't consider it muscle or sport. It's a beast and that's the only thing I'll classify it as :P

Project 3.4 Camaro

I classify 3rd gens as a pony car, more so than a 2nd gen for sure, they are decently light cars, too new to be considered muscle, and I def wouldn't consider them sports cars. 5th gens like all the other new ones...charger, challenger, mustang, are great cars but they ruined the damn things, the only one that weighs less than 3600 lbs is the mustang, even the v6 models are over on the other ones, they are too heavy and big, the charger is an abomination(it can be had in 4 door with options that do NOT belong on a charger).
Honestly I don't get it, performance cars were relatively light back in the 60s, packed on some lbs in the 70s, dropped back down in the 80s, 90s they started finding the weight the 80s ones lost, and now they weigh as much as a small battleship, with all the new materials available and often implemented you would think they could keep it at a reasonable 3500 lbs at least, I honestly don't know how they manage to push almost 2 tons with these new performance cars, even a 350z is heavy, and that car is SMALL. And even the high end exotics, such as lamborghinis, farraris, paganis, etc. are over 3k.
Weight killed the pony car. And yeah, a 5th gen is on a zeta chassis if memory serves, its actually a holden chassis they used in australia for a bit before putting the camaro on it, but some people seem to still refer to it as an F-body because its part of the camaro/firebird family I suppose.

Slash

I don't have a cowl on my Iroc, Its the iroc hood You've seen it quite a few times o.O
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What i quoted was Ronusmcaa's hood he posted a bit further up and commented on it lol

You basically said you weren't really a fan of his hood.. but you like his hood better o.O? haha suppose its the angle

the solitaire

Guess it will be the angle then. I somehow had the idea that the hood in the later picture was more angled, whereas the earlier pictures show more rounded edges on the cowl.

I guess I really need to pay more attention to the text, rather then just look at the pictures. Thnx for the

ASE doc

Not much point in posting photos. I have not made, nor will I be making any body modifications to my IROC beast. All of the modifications I've made were to optimize its design. To bring out its intended potential.

A few have said that the 3rd gen is neither sports car nor muscle car. This statement is really quite accurate. The 3rd gen, while it may not be seen as such by many, was perhaps the most particularly focused project ever undertaken by Chevrolet.

The 3rd gen design team began work in 1970, immediately following the release of the 2nd gen. Chevy's marketing team wasn't impressed with the 2nd gen, citing it as being too much like the original. They wanted a Mustang killer. A car that would take the pony car market in a whole new direction, something no one had ever seen. A V8 powered, 4 seat coupe with the aerodynamics and handling of an exotic. The design process of this revolutionary car would take 11 years.

The 3rd gen "wedge" body was designed in a wind tunnel borrowed from Boeing Aircraft. In base form, with none of the later aero mods, it tested stable to 280MPH. No production american car body has ever bested that. No wonder Gale Banks jumped right on the car. Building his first twin turbo, 230mph version immediately following the 82's release.

The cornering prowess of the 3rd gen is legendary. Hot rod magazine used the 88 IROC as the platform for its "Project 1g". The only modifications were a set of Eibach Pro Line springs, KYB adjustable shocks and struts, and 17x9.5 wheels with 5.5" backspacing wrapped in BF Goodrich KD TA 275/40/17 tires. The IROC pulled 1.1g in the 100ft skid pad. The only production cars in the world, under $100,000, that beat it were the Z06 vette and the Viper RT10.

My IROC is built to capitalize on these traits. With its extreme TPI 355 and long list of chassis and suspension upgrades, it outperforms any car Ive ever driven. It enters a 40mph curve at 80 and exits at 100, without a hint of traction loss. It feels more at home above 100mph than at 60. I have pushed it once to its then top speed of 197. Now, with further upgrades and increased rev limit, I am quite sure it will pass 200. There is no car I would trade it for.

58mark

iTrader: (3)

Great post!

Project-RS

iTrader: (1)

heres the shotgun scoop on my old setup. when the tunnel ram comes in ill post newer pics.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

To me they are a sports car. I can't see modifying it around drag racing other than adding more power.

If I had to make a choice between two mods, one that makes it launch better, but reduces handling, or one that increases handling at the expense of launch I'd choose the increased handling.

I do enjoy drag racing the car but it spends 99% of its time on the street. And I'd rather have handling.

Project-RS

iTrader: (1)

im with you on the driving 99% street. thats why i got rid of the aeroscoop and just keeping my shotgun scoop exposed

Project 3.4 Camaro

Atm mine has mods that make it look more muscle than sport, but I am nowhere near done, atm it has a similar hood to the daytona(I don't actually know the name of my hood, its not that common...) 4 hood pins, the stance is slightly raked by slightly taller tires in the rear. But on the flip side of mods, I plan to lower it 2", headlight covers, I am going to do something to smooth out the sidemarkers, I think I will make them flush with the fender, and clear lense, I plan to fill in the body gap between the nose and fenders, and rear bumper and quarter panels(yes this will make removing them more difficult) I will probably make my gas cap flush and put a spring popper in it, or possibly even shave it and reroute it to behind the license plate, plan to get a 5" spoiler to balance out the hood a little, I don't really mod it to make it more muscle or sports car like, I mod it to make it the way I envision it and want it to look, will take years and thousands to get it where I want it...probably going to do something with the door handles, but am having trouble deciding between smoothing them out or putting chrome ones on to accent the rest of the car, also plan to get chrome exhaust tips, going to make a new grill out of diamond mesh to match my hood as my original pretty much fell apart from age.
Last but not least I am struggling with choosing between torq thrust Ms, with chrome lip, black paint, and something lightweight for handling/power purposes....its a tough choice, if only the torq thrusts were made lighter...

92FBirdVert

iTrader: (1)

Third gen camaro/firebird are actually considered pony cars not muscle cars.
Muscle cars=lots of power and didn't care about fuel mileage, also a true muscle car has buckets up front and bench seats in the back.
My father has a 1966 Chevelle SS 396ci and to me thats a Muscle car.

Slash

great post!
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and damn, I couldn't imagine going that fast in a 3rdgen lol. Most i've read about speeds say they shake/rattle like ***** after 130

Project 3.4 Camaro

I've heard the side windows get sucked in a bit at about 149, but I think the testing was more about aerodynamic stability, the car can certainly be repaired/modified to be more sturdy, and if it shakes or rattles bad, that means something is wrong, more often than not it seems to be the mediocre balance job on the steel driveshafts, generally a carbon fiber or decent aluminum one will solve that, can also be poorly balanced wheels or even alignment. But if the car is up to spec, it won't have trouble up at speed

puma1552

iTrader: (1)

197 mph in a thirdgen, eh?

Project 3.4 Camaro

With the right gear ratio, enough power, and enough room its quite plausible, it only takes about 400-600 hp to go 200 with an aerodynamic car, and our cars have less of a drag coefficient than a bugatti veyron oddly, though Idk if its listed coefficient is with its spoiler retracted or not, but .34 is what a stock IROC-Z sits at.

puma1552

iTrader: (1)

Those gears would need to be about 1:1.

Project 3.4 Camaro

13" tire radius, 6200 rpms, 3.42 rear end ratio, 4th gear in an automatic(.70 ratio)= 200 mph Sounds pretty realistic to me, just need the power output.

Dennis-Z28

iTrader: (1)

One of the furthest thing from a sports car you can get. not light, not 2 seater, no super handling, etc.

Pony car?

Project 3.4 Camaro

Actually they handle quite well, and are pretty light compared to today's performance market, a dodge viper weighs 3400 lbs, a ford gt, 3485, a corvette zr1 3333, a mustang 3400-3533, cept the gt500 which weighs 3820, a new camaro 3800-3900 and so on...the heaviest thirdgen was sub 3600, and most weigh about 3000-3400.

And as far as handling, an IROC-Z pulls .92g stock on a skidpa, compared to new camaro, mustang and challenger: .93, .92, .92 I think, not bad for a car thats 25 years old, and also the v6 ones can actually outhandle the Z from what I've heard since they have better weight distribution, I'm not sure its true since they lack a rear swaybar(its probably about even), but with one I am sure they would.

puma1552

iTrader: (1)

It was more tongue-in-cheek, but I don't think anybody is going 200 mph in a street-trim, stock-bodied F-body.

His post was great, until that part.

the solitaire

I wouldn´t expect a 200 mph thirdgen to be stock, but I know of at least one streetlegal thirdgen capable of 250 mph.

http://www.pollymotorsport.no/

It has licence and registration, runs on full profile tires, passes emissions and has two of the original 4 seats left as well as most of an interior and a full dash.

I would not say it´s impossible, and 200 will be considerably easier. What do you consider street trim and stock bodied?

Slash

The appearance is what was kept stock I believe is what he meant.
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His signature and stuff says alot of the mods it has

"87 IROC Z28, 355 TPI, 10.2:1, 6" rods, bal @ 6K, TFS G2 heads full port, ZZX Cam, Superram Base ported huge, large tube runners, 1 3/4 pri coated stainless short tube, 58mmTB on ported plenum, ram air, high flow air lid, 24lb bosch @ 70 psi, ACCEL DFI, MSD D6, functional hood louvers, and much more. SSM SFCs, Hotchkis rear links& strut tower brace, Eibach Sportline coils, Koni Red S&S, PST bushings, Ed's 13" w/WW 4 piston calipers in front, LS1s in back. GTA seats, MOMO wheel, B&M Megashifter"

puma1552

iTrader: (1)

I still don't see a 200 mph car in that sig. I see a fast car but I just don't see NASCAR top speeds.

Where was it run? Surely you'd take a video if you went out to the salt flats to do a top speed run? Certainly no way you could do that on a public road...

It was a nice post, but 200 mph? Come on, G-Tech extrapolations don't count. I'm skeptical, which is understandable--not everyday someone claims their stock-bodied car hit 200 mph.

Project 3.4 Camaro

*stock-bodied 3rd gen, 200 mph is becoming a fairly commonplace top speed for hi performance cars these days.

the solitaire

Being skeptical is definately a healthy attitude. I know the norwegian 250 mph T/A has at least $250 000 in parts in it.

I do not see me spending that kind of money on my car. It's just not within my possibilities. Then again, without the speed limit from the stock ECM my car manages more then 145 mph (gps said 234 km/h), and that with a 20 year old bone stock LO3.

It's still 55 mph shy of 200.

BigKeg

Wasn't Gale banks car a stock body???? Sure he had to put 2 hair dryers on it, and some other engine work. But for the most part I think the body was all stock..

Now I could be wrong, its Ben a while sents I've seen pics of it...Dose any one have pics of it that they could post... thanks

BigKeg

Wasn't Gale banks car a stock body???? Sure he had to put 2 hair dryers on it, and some other engine work. But for the most part I think the body was all stock..

Now I could be wrong, its Ben a while sents I've seen pics of it...Dose any one have pics of it that they could post... thanks

BigKeg

LOL IDK

58mark

iTrader: (3)

My V6 has a rear sway bar.... I'm assuming it's factory

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

sport all the way. and thats becasue that is what GM called them when they came out

Project 3.4 Camaro

I guess it was an option or something, but its also not that uncommon for people to get them off other fbodies, I know mine doesn't have one.

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

yup. any v8 car will have them so going to the junkyard finding an ol v8 rs and snaggin it and taking it home to put on the v6 it'll bolt right up and look factory. no way to really know.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Mostly stock body, yeah.....

Skinny tires (less rolling resistance)

Moon covers on the wheels

Very low

Front fascia also hung about 2-3 lower than the stock front fascia

No side mirrors

Custom hood

Custom rear wing

http://www.bankspower.com/videos/sho...turbo-trans-am

Njs305t/a

I don't think any F-Body can be considered a muscle car. They were built as pony cars since day 1.

I think of them as pony cars. However, I do think camaros look more muscular than firebirds, but both of them are still pony cars. When I look at my bird and my father's 72 chevelle SS with a 502, I don't think they belong in the same category. My father's car is a muscle car, the bird is definitely not.

Our cars don't really fit in a category which makes them unique.

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

I hate calling them pony cars. Just dont want it related to any mustang.

58mark

iTrader: (3)

Like it or not, it's hard to argue against the fact that the camaro was a reaction to the mustang's success

Without the mustang, there would be no camaro

Project 3.4 Camaro

Yet but if memory serves the mustang was a reaction to the gto, and also as much as he might hate this, the mustangs and camaros (4th gens back) are VERY similar cars underneath.

UNCLE TOM

iTrader: (1)

back to the original question . to me , it's a fun blend of both . a daily driver thats fun to drive . mine is a true daily driver . i feel good every time i get behind the wheel . playing with the mixer stick is always fun , (automatics on a daily driver is for wimps) nothing like playing with the gears behind a mild V-8 . a fun car to drive that has enough power to get out of it's own way . i have several mild performance & handling mods. on my car . just my thoughts . good luck .

CamaroIROC88350

iTrader: (1)

Well, my take on this is this. I only consider the 350 engines in the 3rd Gen's to be the more muscle of the 3rd Gen. group since it came with the most power and still has the styles and handling to back it up.

The 3rd Gen. IROC, Firehawk, T/A, all of those are muscle cars in their own right. A sports car is what I would call a Corvette, Porsche, Viper (although I think it's a mixture of muscle/touring/sporty) Ferrari (exotic/sports) and so on. But even with my insurance, they don't consider my IROC a sports car. They call it a touring/2 seater car, lol. I had this same conversation with my insurance agent the other day as we were discussing bumping up my car's value.

For the 2" cowl hoods or more, I really do like the 2" cowl hoods. It gives the front of the car more style with a functional look for the air induction. I don't think anyone should put on a cowl hood unless they're serious about making power but that's just me. Does it look "hoosiery"? Not at all, if you keep your car in good taste.

The loud V8 in the 350 car's are beautiful. I've had several people compliment me on my car's sound and calling it awesome while driving. SBC V8, handling, the touring/drag racing appeal, sexiness and style are things I would formulate to consider them a muscle car. But technically it's a pony car but alot of us call it a muscle car or in some cases a hot rod as one of my former neighbors called it.

58mark

iTrader: (3)

The mustang had been in the planning stages for years. There was no way the fact thay pontaic dropped a large engine in a mid sized car had anything to do with ford's rollout of the mustang

Its more possible the GTO was the best reaction to what they knew ford was about to d, trying to steal some headlines before they got killed.

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

Ford was making small cars before the mustang. (falcon anyone) and Dodge was too (barracuda). Maybe they werent as good as the Mustang. I still consider it a sports car. Really a Viper and lambo's and ferrarris are more of exotics. IMO.

58mark

iTrader: (3)

another thing I remembered today was that the development of mustang was actually a reaction to the impending release of the Corvair, which most people thought would be a bigger hit than it really was

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

Some people absolutely love corvairs....I am not a fan! Worked on one last year or so. Pretty simple engine.

58mark

iTrader: (3)

I had a 66 corvair... fun car!

would never own one again though... simple engine, but HARD to keep running. I had a bunch of problems

It was a trip having an air cooled car with the gearshift on the DASH

cIaRmOaCrZo

ahh finaly!!! iv had arguments with friends about the 3rd gen bieng mucle or sports. alot you guys gave interesting points as to which it is. personally in MY opinion its almost %100 sports car in styling. and from the factory is wasnt super powerful enough for what most people would think is "mucle". but there are mucle cars that are weaker than a 3rdgen. i honestly think its all about LOOKS. not as much as performance when we are talkin about mucle or sports. because true mucle cars and true sports/exotic cars "usualy" are equaly as powerful. because as time goes on and cars progress in technology and power output, the old is hard to compare to new, simple. so im going purely on looks, okay?

3rd gens look like a damn sports car. and i LOVE it. they are low, sleek, pointy nose cone, have a small passenger compartment, and a highly raked front windshield.
thats why its a pep-peeve of mine when i see a raked/fat&skinny tire combo, and **** sticking out of the freakin hood!! in my eyes if the line that runs down the leangth of the car from nose to rear ISNT PARALELLE, it looks pretty stupid to be honest. or when the rocker pannel isnt paralelle with the street!!!! i love mucle cars, and i love sports cars, but a 3rd generation camaro IS a sports car! to me.

overide

yes the v-6 had a rear sway bar from the factory. a small one, but it was there

agreed... I'm not even sure what pony car means... lol!

Yep... it surprised my how much of my 3rd gen learning curve lended itself to my girl's 03 stang. Only car I learned on was the bird... self taught

Its so funny.... I had never given much thought to the muscle/sports car debate in the past. As I sit here I have a hard time figuring out where I would class it. I always just felt all f-bodys are Muscle cars due to car shows and due to the fact that f-bodys always were muscle cars, along with the Mustang, Nova, Charger, Chevelle, GTO. And the phrase sports car calls to mind porsche, ferrari, viper, vette... or a strict two seater. I guess I have always thought of the "Sports car" as a refined more expensive version of a "Muscle car".

As far as insurance, I have always heard GM added the TINY backseat as way to class the f-body differently from the vette and to give the average folk a break with insurance and keep it out of the "sports car" classification and away from the high rates.

As far as mods... My car will led itself as a hybrid. Lowering and improving the handling, fixing the creaks and squeaks, larger more modern rims, but taking the performance platform to an improved level. Sleaking out the car, giving it a highend look, but beefing the wheel width and camming it for a muscle car lope! Having the car balanced to give a respectful, but envy inspiring 1/4 mile, but making it take the turns like a modern vette.

HAHAHAHA... Have you ever driven a Fiero that is set up right with a v-8.... SPORTS CAR! It was GMs low buck sports car. just held back the v-8. I bet if it had survived, they would have made a v-8 option... Pulled a Grand National trick... just don't publish the right numbers and take down the vette...LOL!

I lump the Sky and Solstice into the same sports car group as the Fiero... GM had a v-8 swap in the works all along. Throw in the v-8 and mop the floor with the unsuspecting...

Project 3.4 Camaro

The 1990 fiero prototype DID have a v8, in fact part of why they axed it is because they won't let anything get ahead of the flagship corvette, and if that prototype had it would've given the vette a run for its money and costed a lot less. Part of me wishes I had gotten a fiero, considering how much lighter they are, but it would be a pita to work on I think, and I honestly don't know how well they handle compared to a camaro, but hell I tore out my back seats anyways, and I have a v6, so I probably should have...but with any luck I will eventually have a fiero in ADDITION to my camaro, and pony car generally means, small, cheap(ie. often cut corners for cost sake in some areas(ie. interior) to put more value into others(ie. handling, power) light car with a powerful engine, and that handles decently, ie. camaros and mustangs, though personally I don't think the 3rd or 2nd gens quite fit the "small" category, but I guess in terms of relativity to engine size they do, honestly I would say the fiero was a pony car too, sports car to me means high end performance car, ie. viper, corvette, lotus, lamborghini, ferrari, ford gt, etc. Muscle imo is anything very early 70s or late 60s that had a BFE in it(that was worth as much as the car often times, with the rest of the car often cheaped out on for the sake of said BFE) and was a deathtrap if you tried going fast any other direction than a straight line.

84firebird383

What makes a Muscle car has changed over the years. Muscle is the term used to describe American performance. You can call the f bodies pony cars, Gt, sport, it doesn't matter, they are American muscle. How you build it doesn't really change what it is. That being said, I like third gens built both for drag racing(more of a traditional muscle car look), and as the sportier road racing type.

Project 3.4 Camaro

I strongly disagree...muscle doesn't cover everything in the US performance car market, cadilac cts for example, I would hardly call an SSC aero muscle, or a saleen, or the dagger GT or a host of other cars, thats like saying all british performance cars must be touring cars, even though they have the lotus elise and exige, the caterhams, and I think they make the ariel atom as well. Just because most of our performance cars can be considered muscle, doesn't mean they all can.