eagle_eyes

iTrader: (3)

you caught me...you caught the tater!

Caprice is what i ment.... the other cop car. Fleetwoods, roadmasters, and caprices had cast iron heads.

willy825

anyone mention yanking out the spare tire and jack?

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

I wrote it here, but i'm sure it was mentioned before.. It's a good simple way to remove weight.. Just don't go too far with the car

Shadow Z

iTrader: (2)

Then why would tons of drag strips around the country classify the cars by drivetrain setup, and weight, as to not give someone with a power adder or big block an unfair advantage?

I.e. "**Big block with turbo or blower - weight with driver 3550."

"Small Block N/A - weight with driver 2800"

http://www.beechbend.com/dragstrip.htm

Fact of the matter is, when removing weight, no matter if it's weight that is supported more by the rear axle, or front axle, you're helping to improve traction, and times. Transferring ~3,000 LBS of car into motion is what will cause a loss of traction. This is due to, at launch, the vector quantity, or, angular momentum of the wheels turning being able to provide more momentum in the form of power, and that car's weight resisting the influence to gain momentum, due to it's mass.

Basically the tires want to go, but it is hard to make roughly 3,000 pounds of car pick up that momentum right away. This is why big block and power adder cars usually are required to be heavier, this is why F1 cars have weight restrictions. Less mass would be easier to control around a corner, and is easier to put into motion.

Top fuel dragsters weigh a little over 2,200 pounds. They're basically a long, flat roll cage with a flimsy body over top. Yet, they manage to put down ~8,000 HP and hook up rather gracefully. Why not add 500 more pounds over the rear? Because it'd slow them down..

This goes into why jet (thrust) powered vehicles have always been faster on the salt flats. You can have as much power as a top fuel dragster out on the salt flats, but will it spin out on that salt when you put the pedal down? Whereas the thrust of the jet streamliners out there always have something to put that thrust against, the air. Can't lose traction when pushing against the air, angular velocity isn't involved.

The only time I've ever used weight to gain traction is when me and a buddy packed about a half ton of snow into the back of his pick up truck, since it's a 2WD 5.9 Cummins, and we needed to get around in the snow. Works great at low speed, but not when trying to launch a car at the drag strip. Just makes it harder for the vehicle to in a way "accept" the momentum that the tires are trying to provide, by shoving the car forward.

That's got to tell you something though, if the fastest drag cars in the world are typically around 1,000 pounds lighter than most third gens. The best example I can give you is, go try to push a shopping cart at a store. Rather effortless, right? Now, try to push a car. That added weight makes it harder for you to transfer that mass into motion, and if you push really hard, your sneakers may start to slip.

Not trying to argue over such a simple matter here, but it's just how it is.

eagle_eyes

iTrader: (3)

i gotta agree with you both.
less mass means easier acceleration. but in an every day street driven car, simply removing weight from over the rear can cause a loss of traction. several good 'ole farm boys that race their trucks out here often put sand bags in the bed to help with traction...and it works.
drag cars are different. they have the right suspension for racing. they can dial in their cars to hook up, but their are limitations to this as well. my friend's 10 sec drag car cut 1.4 '60's only by adding 100 lbs in the rear bumper. before that, it would slip a little.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

I agree with everything that you are saying Shadow Z.. But we may be talking about two separate things here.. What I am referring to is tire traction.. Since most of the weight is in the front of our cars, say 58 front/42 rear, the rear will not grip as much compared to say if the weight balance was, say 42 front/58 rear. I'm not trying to sound sophisticated or anything I just know from what i've read, and from experience (mine and others I know) that adding weight over the rear (in RWD cars/trucks) will increase initial traction. The OVERALL acceleration suffers with more weight and will benefit from less weight OVERALL.. I think there is a threshold of when your tires will spin based off of how much weight you removed over the rear axle of a car. I gave an example of my car (before I installed new tires).. I had good traction and was netting 14.5, then I took out the spare and jack (roughly 35-40lbs) and got 15.3, 15.2, 15.1 and then 15.0 on the dot. On top of that, I had done other mods to lower the overall weight of the vehicle since that run of 14.5, so the removal of the spare/jack really killed my 60 foot time. Now, with better tires, I remove the spare and jack and get better initial acceleration because i have better tires.. Taking into account if you have a REALLY good setup for drag, then yes, I agree, less overall weight regardless of where it sits on the car is a good thing. So, I do agree with your statement, but let's agree that on a RWD street car not built for drag, less weight over the rear WILL reduce traction.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

that 100lbs your friend added is a band-aid covering the real problem that can be fixed with proper IC adjustment and shock settings. lighter cars are faster, ALWAYS.

Shadow Z

iTrader: (2)

That's true to an extent, weight distribution also comes into play. Take a low optioned stock third gen around ~3,400 pounds, replace the rear hatch with lexan, take out the jack & spare tire, it may see higher 60 foot times. Of course, with them same stock tires.

However.. Take off weight evenly to keep the weight distribution in check, and you would almost always see increases in traction, promoting lower 60 foot times.

I.e. for every mod at the rear, mod the front accordingly.

Replace the rear hatch glass with lexan - get aluminum heads.

Remove the tire & jack - time for a tubular K member.

Remove the carpet which is a few pounds - time for Aerospace brakes up front, probably the rear too since they don't take off all that much weight.

Although for the most point, the point mw66nova and I have made, that lighter cars are faster, is typically always true. The less weight the tires have to heave forward, the easier it is to send that vehicle into motion, and the less the tires will want to spin. Since, a lighter vehicle is likely to accelerate just as fast as the tires are trying to.

On top of that, it's just neat to have a gutted iron block V8 powered American car that is only a few hundred pounds heavier than a newer Civic. The neat thing is that I could still lose hundreds of pounds, between dropping in an LS1/T56, fiberglass doors, a PA racing tubular K member, a PST carbon fiber driveshaft, the Aerospace brakes, lexan windows all around, there's just so much more, but it also costs so much $$$.

I've already done all of the basic stuff. No air conditioning, no heat, no radio & all four speakers pulled, no console, no spare tire or jack, no carpet right now, but I'm putting some back in, all of the plastic interior panels are pulled out, no interior lights, no back seats.

This weight reduction thread always makes me wish I could get to work on the IROC and dump some cash into it. Maybe after I pick up the Mustang next month. I've wanted to be able to own both a Camaro and Mustang for a long time, and finally found a great deal on one. $6,500 for a 2002 GT 5 speed with less than 100K on the clock just screams "get it get it get it" to me.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

the only part i hate about going faster is that eventually, you do have to add the weight back in...the roll bar and the 9", and the th400....my car has no ac, no hvac equipment, aluminum heads, lightweight carpet, run without seats other than my kirkey drivers seat. the car has drag brakes on the back, skinnies, no front sway bar, yadda yadda yadda...car weighs 3165lbs without me in it...3465 with me. take my steel hood, roll bar, and heavy 9" and th400 out and i can get this thing down to 2800...but then i'm not legal to run as fast as i do, and i won't run as fast as i do as reliably. I could do without the steel hood and go fiberglass (and i will) but the reality is it's only 30ish lbs and they're expensive

eagle_eyes

iTrader: (3)

the 100 lbs. was needed anyway. the car weighed 2600, which was too light for his class. he had to put more in the trunk after the 100 lbs.

eagle_eyes

iTrader: (3)

here's a picture of it... i know, i know... it's a ford. but it has an LSX motor and TH400 trans.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

I see what you guys are saying, especially about weight distribution (that's what I meant when I was talking about 58/42 front to rear weight distribution, etc..) But take a street RWD car as is, say it makes quite a bit of power (say 14.5 on the 1/4 mile) and then consider taking weight off, now the only thing at the track you could take out would be the spare tire+jack because it's an easy obvious piece to remove from the car. Now, run it and get 15 to 15.4 with the same setup, with just less weight in the rear.. In that particular application which i'm sure many third genners fall into (still talking about street cars here), would it not be safe to say that it would be better off in that particular application to avoid removing the spare tire + jack altogether to reduce tire spin off takeoff in order to net a lower time on the 1/4 mile?

My understanding is this: If you can remove weight off the rear, test it, and lose no traction, then by all means. But if you remove weight over the rear, and your tires spin more (thus netting you a higher 1/4 mile time than if you would have left the weight back there), then you can either try to balance it out by removing equal weight from the nose of the car (as you mentioned above) or leave the weight in the rear. Does this sound accurate?

I try to avoid using words like "always" and "never" because in reality all of our applications are very different and some things that work for us may not apply to other people's cars.

85Iroc-Z

iTrader: (4)

Has anybody found the weight difference of switching from an automatic to a 5 speed?

Shadow Z

iTrader: (2)

Depends from transmission to transmission. A few simple things such as the torque converter being used (stock or aftermarket) what the bellhousing and case are made of, can really change up the weight fairly quickly. 700R4's usually weigh around 135. I believe that's dry without bellhousing or torque converter weight included. I believe most T56's are in the range of 120-125, don't know if that's dry or wet, or with bellhousing weight included. So, a nice 5 to 10+ pound weight savings could be in order, maybe a lot more since I'm almost positive that 135 LBS doesn't include the weight of a heavy stock torque converter for the 700R4.

I decided to keep my 700R4. I'd really like to try out a 3,200 or 3,500 RPM stall torque converter from PATC. They build some really tough 700R4's, rated to 700 FT-LBS/700 horsepower. They also sell a billet torque converter rated to 1,000 horsepower, which seems kind of backwards to me, since they don't necessarily have a 700R4 rated to handle that sort of power.

Who knows, when I decide to put some cash into the IROC, it may be fun to have a 3,500 stall TC and a nice transgo shift kit, or just go full manual valve body.

eagle_eyes

iTrader: (3)

my 700r4 dry with stock convertor and a pallet weighed 175. it was a smaller than average pallet...don't know the actual weight, but i would guess 25 to 35 lbs

eagle_eyes

iTrader: (3)

on second thought, the pallet was probably 15 to 25 lbs. it's been a good 4 years or so...

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

The entire AC system...and I mean EVERYTHING including firewall box, all brackets, bolts, lines, condensor, compressor....the whole shebang, is 50 lbs. I was dissapointed when me and my brother stripped every possible part of the AC system out only to find out it was that light!

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Yeah there's no where near 100 lbs there. I must have made that post years ago. If you take the entire passenger side serpentine bracket off, you will lose a fair amount with that. Maybe 20 lbs. So 70 in total. At the time I made a bracket to use my alternator to tension the belt. So after both the AC and smog pump were gone, there really was no use for the passenger side bracket.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Hey WhiteDevilTA, are you transamman305 on youtube? I just saw ur vids randomly while i was searching youtube and if that's you (i think it is) then damn sick job! Did you finally get it painted?
To get back on the subject... What weight reduction mods did you do during the resto process?

85Z28NOS

iTrader: (2)

Is anyone running a spoon k-member on a daily driver? The weight savings looks very appealing but I tend to drive my car VERY hard and am worried about reliability in my daily driver.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

I would like to know about this as well about Spohn k-member! That's alot of weight savings over the front!

stage20

iTrader: (3)

if your car is a daily driver i wouldnt worry with a k member unless you needed it for clearance issues with headers or turbo setup.

my factory k member with all bolts and bracing was 55 pounds.
PA racing k member was 21. the spohn unit is a few pounds more.
to me 30 pounds is everything, but for a car i drive everyday i think i would pass.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

if i road race/autocross the car.. will this make a significant difference? I'm relocating the battery to the rear, putting aluminum front bumper support, and lighter weight drop spindles, so all of that combined with this should net me a good 85lbs off the front of the car. (spindles are unsprung weight which is better to remove actually)

gregsz-28

iTrader: (1)

It will make a more significant difference (you will lose more weight) then anything else you listed.
Aluminum front bumper? 7 or 8 pounds.
Relocate battery? You will generally gain weight.
Drop spindles? Aren't those supposed to save about 11lbs? But, as you mentioned, 100% of that is unsprung weight.

stage20

iTrader: (3)

im not sure on the alumium bumper support.
i have one, but have been cautious of taking off my front bumper.
never weighed a stock steel one. i read weights between 25-37 pounds.
the alumium one i have weighs in at 18 pounds.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

lol oops i calculated the battery in there, my bad haha.. I guess relocating the battery to rear take weight off the "front of the car" and puts it at a better location (in the rear). True it does add weight but I removed the spare and jack so that more than makes up for it. For racing (drag or autox) I think weight balance front-to-rear is also a very important. Is the Spohn tubular k-member strong enough for the harsh abuse of street driving, autox, and/or any other form of racing or street driving?

gregsz-28

iTrader: (1)

my stock steel bumper weighed closer to 25, IIRC. I agree on the Aluminum bumper weight though.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

that's still 7 lbs lighter on the absolute front of the nose of the car.. Removing polar weight is worth more to a vehicle's handling than removing weight closer to the center of the car. Although I agree 7lbs is really small, every little bit counts in the end..

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

That would be me! And yes the car is at paint as of yesterday. I'm pretty excited to see it with color again, but it's going to be about a month before he's done with it. I wasn't too concerned with weight reduction since it's a street car and honestly, I'm not the type to get rid of things I enjoy like power windos, locks, etc. I say, for a street car, f it's not fast enough, add horsepower lol. A few basic things though are the entire front tubular set up (K member, A arms) Should be good for about 30-40 lbs. Also, I removed all the AC stuff and went with a non AC box which was about 50 lbs. I scraped all the heavy undercoating out of the wheel wells and under the car and used 2 coats of herculiner which should have at least saved me a few pounds over the thick factory junk. Removed every vacuum line and canister/smog tube under the hood. I'm guessing maybe 10-15 lbs total. Spare tire and jack are gone which is around 25-30 lbs. Also, the 5.3 engine with the aluminum heads and plastic intake I'm guessing should be a god deal lighter than the stock engine so I would say about 70 lbs lighter there. Only problem is the turbo going on is about 20 lbs plus all the piping so without a doubt, I will be lighter than stock but not sure exactly how much. I'd say I took about a total of 200 lbs off, but will be adding maybe 60 or so with the turbo. I'll be happy if I'm in the 3300 lbs mark somewhere. I believe stock is around 3450 lbs. And thanks for the compliment too!

The tubular K members are plenty strong for street use. It's designed for racing so it is very rigid and you'll never break it. As long as your careful from bottoming out and hitting the oil pan, you'll be fine. Plus, steel pans only dent so even IF you hit it, it should be very fixable. I know tons of guys that run tubular K members on the street and are fine. The extra room it allows in the engine bay is priceless! It will be much needed when I start running turbo piping.

85Z28NOS

iTrader: (2)

Removed the front bumper today and weighed it on a digital postal scale, 25lbs. I then cut the middle section out and fabbed a small center brace to hold the center of the nose in position. It now weighs 15lbs and was alot easier to reinstall. I also found a guy on ebay selling aluminum water pumps for our reverse rotation serpentine set-up cheap!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=170560640341

stage20

iTrader: (3)

thats very similar to what i had planned when i change out to this aluminum unit.
id have left the mounting ears on it and cut to either side of that, but a few tabs and youll be set.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

I'd personally never want to sacrifice a safety feature of the car for 10 pounds. You need 100 lbs off for a measily 1/10th in the 1/4, yet 10 HP added will net you this as well. I'd much rather add 10 HP than take my crash bar (reason it's called this!) off for weight savings on a street car none the less. Things I'd consider are a fiberglass hood, AC delete, lighter seats/removed seats, etc. I don't like changing the way the car was designed from the factory for good reasons! I say if it's not fast enough, add HP unless your building a dedicated race car.

kd5icr

iTrader: (2)

I agree, that seems insane to cut anything from the car to save a little weight. Most on TGO would call that a hack job, I wont, I just dont think it is safe, couldnt you just change all the susspension parts to tube aluminum like the K member and stuff like that? At most I gutted the AC but then again it will be a DD. I want to save weight but there seems to be a fine line.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

I agree! With the exception of replacing the steel crash bar with the aluminum one hehe..

By the way, whitedevil, how's the paint coming along?

Project-RS

iTrader: (1)

i read a few pages and wanted to chime in on my list. so far i swapped the hatch with the hawks fiberglass notch, rear seat delete, no ecu/ wire harnesses (except the basics) only thing under the hood is the 355/rad/battery/wires to run the motor, gutted under dash (no heater,a/c vents. only thing behind there is wires for gauges), plastic fuel cell (16 gallon), full length headers to mufflers to turndowns, center console has storage area cutout, no power options (s10 steering box). i think thats it for now. i havent wieght it yet, but should be decent for a street car.

85Z28NOS

iTrader: (2)

I love that everyone has a different opinion of what is a street car. My brother street races a car that is so gutted the doors are hollow except for the skin, now its very light but very unsafe and scary! This actually started out that I was going to drill a bunch of 2" holes in the bumper and make it look like swiss cheese, but after drilling a couple and seeing the result I opted to cut the center out. I can always buy another if I didnt like the outcome. The bumper cut like this is actually still quite strong unless your car can fit between the sub-frame rail. I didnt even need to brace the bumper at all. Only the very two center tabs are not being used as I cut the bottom to allow use of all the rest of the tabs. On a side note, I have NEVER been in an accident in the 25yrs I have been driving(avoided plenty!). I am actually running a bolt on glass hood, and ordered a aluminum pump and ac delete, and am planning to switch my power seats for manual ones. Lighter cars handle much better that heavy cars regardless of power, besides I have a 150hp shot of NOS in place of the spare tire and jack to help if needed. It was a harder choice to ditch the air than the center of the bumper, being here in TX.

Project-RS

iTrader: (1)

there are many types of "street" cars. if its pump gas, to me its a street car.......lol i plan on getting a pre 85 rear bumper (non ground effects) and swapping it with my 89 one. my hood is a lift off daytona with an aero scoop. even with the added fiberglass, its still lighter than a bolt on daytona hood. my doors are staying factory weight unless i decide to turn it into a drag car. i might take some weight off it but nothing insane. i also made a small cutout on my nose support, but to allow more air to pass through.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

I just talked to the guy on monday and he said he really hasn't started anything yet but I'm assuming he'll be starting this week. I've also got a few small pieces like the gas door and some of the ground effects peices at the soda blast shop so I can take them to get painted as well. Those should be done end of this week. Guy at the paint shop told me it should only take him a few weeks on the car so I'll have my fingers crossed!

To each thier own I guess. And a dedicated street race car that you bet for cash on is one thing....I could see having a gutted car like that for a die hard street racer, but that is NOT a driver car. I plan to drive mine probably around 5000 miles or so....maybe even more every summer and I want it safe. God forbid I ever crashed it I'd know it should hold up like the factory designed it. You can go for 25 years without crashing but anything can happen at any point. Plus, all it takes is for you to swerve and hit a pole head on, or anything that fits between those frame rails, and you'll have a chevy engine in your lap. Not trying to start a big stink. It's your car and by all means, build it how you want it. I'm just throwing out my opinion. If you really want a light car, buy a miata and throw a V8 in it....I'll personally sacrifice some weight to drive a much less flamboyant trans am.

Project-RS

iTrader: (1)

heres how i cut my crash bar. top pic is before, bottom pic is after

92RS_Ttop

iTrader: (3)

85Z28NOS - Maybe I'm missing something but I don't get the point of leaving the 2 ends of the crash bar?? They don't bolt to anything but the frame rails and don't support the nose at all. Why not just remove the entire bar?

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

I heard that it does support the nose of the car, but i don't have any way of verifying that but it makes sense tho..

92firebird 305

what all are you saleing?

Shadow Z

iTrader: (2)

Who were you talking to? Because I believe somewhere on this thread that I mentioned I may sell all of my interior stuff sooner or later. Maybe it was another thread.

willexoIX

As I do agree with you, to a point.
proper weight distribution, and a proper power/weight ratio.

Example:

take a 700 HP 3500lb car and put it through the same corner as a 700 HP 1000lb car, at the same speed.

If the turn is NOT banked, and the 1000lb car doesn't have any aerodynamics, Who hits the tree?

The laws of Physics states that the 1000lb car will be the one that flies off the road and goes straight, even while turning the wheel.

The momentum and inertia of the 1000lb car make the change of direction very difficult, if not impossible. The weight is acting as a ballast, Which if there is not enough, Skreeeeeeeeech BANG.

Now if it's properly setup, then by all means yes, the lighter car will out handle the heavier car.

But it does not just boil down to weight. You also have to look at weight distribution, aerodynamic properties, traction, power/weight ratio, etc...

Anyone can turn a 3000lb car into a 1500lb car(figuratively speaking), but it doesn't mean it will outhandle the same 3000lb car unless everything is taken into account.

This is the same reason that removing the rear hatch on a third gen Camaro, will make it more prone to wheel spin(ballast weight), whereas removing the hood will make the car a bit more squirrley at high speeds in the front(aerodynamic drag AND ballast weight)(My experience). 50/50 is best and the best handling will be had as long as you can get as close to that as possible.

Not trying to start a war, or rain on someones parade. If any offense is taken, I apologize ahead of time.
Simply passing on information to help the ThirdGen community

willexoIX

OK back to topic.

I plan on pulling the AC system and most if not all parts that have to do with it. With the exception of the heater controls, etc.

I want to keep the vent setting to use heat when its chilly outside and I would use my AC when its hot(if it didn't drain my gas tank).

What are some things to remove that won't really disturb a DD?

I also am removing close to an equal amount of weight from the back to keep the weight distribution as close to 50/50 as possible.

Its a V6(blah blah I know), and I am doing turbo probably by the summer and have other things planned. It will be a DD/Circuit car whenever I feel like going to the track. I will deal with drive-ability problems, being it will still be a DD.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Nothing wrong with a 6. Mine makes me smile and feels like a gocart. I have everyone beat so far haha, 2825lbs without me in it last time I was at the track. And it's a dd. See my vb garage for weight savings. Any other 6ers out there looking for more weight savings should look at GM's aluminum 60* v6 racing block. All of 67lbs!

89_RS

Neat thing I found, particularly for us weight nit-pickers:

Titanium Fasterns from Tico Titanium:

http://www.ticotitanium.com/products...ium-fasteners/

Gumby

Id agree, some go over board and the only way to remove anything and have it be effective is if you don't have allot of wheel spin.

I lost allot of weight in the rear when I went to a notch, but it wasn't to save weight. Though haven't been able to drive it enough since putting it on.
Could very well find lead in the lower trunk well to add some back and keep it low, that or Im gonna hafta lower it. Got a good 2in in lift when the notch went on. Or get bigger tires

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Just thought of something.. Don't Corvette's use titanium exhaust because it's lighter than steel? I know it would be more expensive but wouldn't this save tons of weight over all those aftermarket heavy exhaust systems for our cars?

89_RS

Yep, they do. Its 2mm thick Titanium exhaust pipe, cat, muffler, and tips. It weighs 26lbs as opposed to the 44lbs steel setup.

The really hard & expensive part would be the headers. After that, most anyone who can TIG and can backpurge could fab-up a Titanium exhaust.