Yossarian14

Can someone explain to me how the cheaper headunits such as Kenwoods have so much better specs as half the price? I was going to buy a Pioneer but then I looked at a specs sheet and it got the sht kicked out of it by a Kenwood that cost $150. Can anyone help me here?

ryanL04

im sure the visual display was much different. also, you do pay for the name. and quality. some decks will last longer than others without having any problems and some decks youll have to replace in a year or two.

Yossarian14

Well I dont care that much about looks, I just find it insane that the $150 Kenwoods are outperforming the $300+ pioneer/panasonic/etc.

firebirdjosh

iTrader: (1)

They aren't. Kenwood sucks soooo bad. What do you mean outperforming. Any company can overrate their specs if it claims to push more wattage. Pioneer and Alpine decks are some of the best on the market, I'd stick with those.

Yossarian14

so your only explaination is that their lying?

ddn69

hes right alpine, pioneer, clarion, eclipse, to name some good ones are some of the best and expect to pay 250ish+ for a good one.

firebirdjosh

iTrader: (1)

No, I'm basically saying you have no idea. Show us two decks you want to compare. And Kenwood is very cheaply made.

I bought my first firebird back in March 2003. It came with a Kenwood tape deck and CD changer. The sound was awful, basically non-existant. I upgraded to a new Kenwood CD player. Broke a few days later and I'd have to jiggle the cable to make the changer work. CDs got stuck in it as well. The bass was still aweful. So I bought a very expensive KDC-90XX with a hideaway face plate. It became jammed once in a while, wouldn't recognize the changer for no reason, didn't sound good. Then the changer finally broke so I got rid of it and bought a Lanzar DVD player which is a piece of crap but sounds MUCH better. This all happened within a single year. I will never purchase anything made by Kenwood for the rest of my life due to their poor quality in the products that I've purchased.

NEEDAZ

What specs are you compairing?

Yossarian14

Just look at this and you will understand were my questions are coming from. The $180 Kenwood matches or beats the $260+ headunits according to these figures. Its tied for best RMS power output and signal to noise ratio. It also one of the best in peak output, preamp voltage, and I just cant see why I should spend another $100 on a headunit thats supposedly has the same figures or worse. Plus, my brother has had his Kenwood for years and hasnt had one problem. Look at this

ddn69

well buy what you want but Id stick to alpine/clarion...

It seems like the newer alpines arent as good as when I bought mine. It cant be 2v preouts....Mines 4v...I dunno I still say alpine rox.

NEEDAZ

Given the models you listed The Alpine then Pioneer are going to sound better, I don't have any experience playing with that Panasonic so can't include that, then the Kenwood. You get what you pay for in most cases, believe it or not. There can be a big difference in how different HU's 'sound'. This is more pronounced if using the HU's internal amp.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

What people fail to realize, is that the specifications associated with most electronics are useless.

S/N ratio is a good example. 90dB, 100db, 110db, whatever. It's all crap. The S/N ratio of a CD is what it is, and even if the signal picks up a little bit of noise between the DAC and the output, you'll never hear a difference, especially in a car environment.

Head unit power ratings are bogus crap and can be completely ignored. Most specifications don't tell you if it's a full bandwidth measurement or over a narrower band. It doesn't tell you if it's with all channels driven simultaneously or with just one channel driven. It doesn't tell you what the THD limit is for that power rating, etc. Even if it does give these parameter constraints, most of the time the parameters they do use are not at all close to real world conditions, so the numbers still don't mean much.

sesand

There isn't much difference in a S/N ratio of 94 vs. 105 dB, especially in a car environment.
The FM tuner is much better on the Pioneer.
The preamp voltage isn't as high on the Pioneer, but that doesn't make a bit of difference if your wiring is done properly to keep external noise out of the RCA's. Higher pre-amp voltage does not mean your stereo will be louder.
What the comparison chart doesn't tell you is that the 3 band equalizer on the Pioneer is parametric (adjustable frequencies are variable, as is the bandwidth of those frequencies), and the 3 band equalizer on the Kenwood is useless (the adjustable frequencies and bandwidths are set).
Other than that, the comparison chart is useless.

Meatwad

I had a kenwood with the flip face, I had it a week and it stopped working, sent it in they sent me a NEW one same thing happened 3weeks later, i sent it in and they "fixed" it.....not even 2 days later the SAME thing happened..

So I sold it

Pioneer or Clarion 4 life

sesand

The older Kenwood home stereo receivers used to be decent quality. The one my parents own from the 70's still works just fine. Guess they opted for a new marketing strategy

NEEDAZ

I'll add that some specs are not only exaggerated, some are under stated. As an example, Sony has a reputation for vary bad FM reception and almost no AM. But there tuners operated to spec and the specs are more or less in line with most other manufactures. So if you looked at the specs you would think they would be close to the same, but there not. Almost every other manufacture does better. In most cases they exceed the stated sensitivity. It's been 6-7 years sence I've plyed with a Marconi 2955 though, all of this is from then.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

back then things were different. The power wars were resulting in some retardedly high power receivers. Most of those 100 watt receivers from back then would pound the snot out of anything available today. A lot of them were basically Pro style amps stuffed into a silver box with a tuner.

Just to comment on tuner quality, one thing I've noticed is that different manufacturers handle their FM very differently. On a car radio, as the signal weakens, there's a gradual shift from stereo to mono. In mono it's possible to eliminate a lot more noise than in stereo. In home stereos, the stereo separation is maintained, so static is a lot more apparent on weak signals.

I live in a rural area, with 35 miles of mountian between me and the stations I listen to, so unfortunately I'm very familiar with poor radio reception. I've ALWAYS found that aftermarket radios can't pull in the stations as well as a stock radio, yet when in an area with strong reception, they always sound better, with much better stereo separation. I think that the aftermarkets don't blend to mono enough compared to the stock radios. They are trying to retain the superior sound quality, which is fine in metropolitian areas, but where I live it sucks.

NEEDAZ

Jim, that JVC you have is a great SQ HU, but the JVC tuners are a little lack-lust. A ground strap from the chassis my help some. I have a low end JVC in my truck and the AGC is handled a little different then in you're HU if I remember right. With my HU you can hear the AGC switch from high to low, then a little farther out switchs to mono. I think you get more 'steps' then just H/L, (something like H/M/L). You're HU also doesn't have the bad solder connection problems or ground problems like the lower ones. Just a FYI on same manufacture, different model handling things differently.

ScrapMaker

I have to say that one of the reasons I picked my Pioneer over anything else was the EQ and the Tuner strength...

I'd also like to point out, that I had a Kenwood KDC-MP922 for over a year and I am a delivery driver on the weekends, so that sucker opened more times that you can shake a stick at... no problems there.

Really I don't think that any units that cost under $300 are even worth looking at... and after owning a Jensen deck, (which was better than the sony I had right after that,) I will never buy another deck under $500... they just lack too many important features and are cheaply made....

in the end though, you have to realize that a deck costs more for a reason... most likely a better screen or better internal components... you are not "paying for the name" any more with Pioneer than you would with Kenwood... I'd agree if the brand was Alpine or Clarion... but Kenwood and Pionner are too mainstream.

Save up for a real deck and you won't be sorry....

and my apologies if you are just looking for a cheap-o deck that you can use with a separate EQ, crossover, amplifier, and tuner... but I highly doubt that is the case.

TomP

I picked mine because I knew chicks would dig the dolphins... LOL! (But they do and that's cool with me!)

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

I dunno. Any $200 alpine, clarion, pioneer, ect. will all do the job. They sound the same as the more expensive decks, and the only features they usually lack are the bell & whistle features like EQs and crossover flexibility, which you don't need in most cases anyway.

firebirdjosh

iTrader: (1)

I agree. My brother's $200 Pioneer deck has awesome features, has been around for 6 years now and still sounds awesome. It's been in 3 different cars and is still taking abuse. The EQ is great on those.

Yossarian14

So what headunit under $300 would you recommend then, not a single cent above. Im thinking pioneer but I cant remember the model, it costs about $260, performs well, and look pretty good.

ScrapMaker

how do you guys deal with not having an EQ?

maybe you all have external eq's? I wish I had one...

firebirdjosh

iTrader: (1)

I'm confused. All of my decks have an EQ (although I do run a seperate 12 band EQ).

Scooby

i love my pioneer and they have last me a long time

sesand

If your deck has a quality EQ, it's good enough. In most casees, you shouldn't need an EQ if you do the install right. Unfortunately you can't always get everything perfect, and it's necessary to tame a few peaks here and there.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Buy good enough speakers and install them properly and you don't need one.

An EQ can benefit you in cases where there are environmental conditions that need to be dealt with, which is why I've got a pair of 31 band eq's sitting in my basement waiting for me to install them, but an EQ is not a band-aid for poor sounding speakers or poorly installed speakers. You don't need an EQ to get good sound.

ScrapMaker

I realize that, technically you want a completely FLAT response... so that it's true to the original recording...

that's why I ONLY use the Auto EQ on the pioneer... which automatically adjusts the 13 band EQ to produce a flat sound response in whatever vehicle you put it in..(using the microphone, of course)

I only mess with the EQ 50hz to adjust the sub sometimes...

I also don't use LOUD/BBX/BBE or anything else that alters the sound...

I have to cross my plates over at 200hz, and even use the HPF on the amp to keep them from sounding like crap at high levels...

6x9's I cross at 160, because they vibrate too much stuff and **** me off... even though when I free-air them they play down to 40hz and sound amazing...(while free-air'ing, in my hand)

it's just that if you cannot adjust the sound to fit your vehicle's acoustics... then you aren't really getting that flat tone response...

maybe I'm too picky?

onebadwagon

holding the speaker in your hand is not "free air", and i'm very sure they sound out of this world.


so what do you do for the gap between 60~100 hz and 160hz?

ScrapMaker

I don't think that it's a true cut-off... because it doesn't sound much different except that my 6x9's don't rattle the car...

it may be due to the fact that it's only a 12db/octave cut off...

the sub has an 18db/octave cut-off...

onebadwagon

exactly, it's a 12db per octave cutoff, so you should be 6db down @ 120hz, which would be pretty damned noticeable to me.

I'm willing to bet that anything with alot of bass guitar, and percussion sounds like crap in your car, no offense, but I'd bet you're leaving alot of good sound on the table with your current configuration.

ScrapMaker

well... what I need is an active crossover that just keeps my speaker from reaching the excursion point that causes vibration...

I can play my system with my 6x9s at 40hz+ no problem, but if I turn up the volume a tad, its just too much for me... so the lack of midrange in this case is worth it.


I spent a few days screwin' around with the cutoffs and such, and for some reason I couldn't hear a difference between like 100hz and 160hz for the 6x9s (with the sub playing cut off at 80hz and lower)

it's quite possible that the pioneer deck alters the cutoffs to ensure proper Flat response... I don't know... I do know that if I use the crossover on my amp instead, I lose a lot of 'fullness'...

basically I want it to where when I turn up the volume, it lowers the bass output of the speakers, (not subs though,) so that the total excursion of the woofer remains the same....

I wouldn't be suprised if there was some sort of dynamic crossover like that.

onebadwagon

that's f'in weak dude.


turn that b.s. on your head unit to flat, and tune the crap.

sesand

or you can find what's rattling and stop it. then your 6x9's can play as low as they're designed...

ScrapMaker

well, I'm talkin at about 75+ RMS watts to the speaker... pretty much if I allow it to play 40hz... it's almost ripping the speaker in half.... if I cut the frequencies, I can play it at maximum amplifier output and it still sounds clear...

it's just that the speaker cone is moving so violently at those volumes that it's distorting and shaking everything and it just sounds like crap.

and what is wrong with a dynamic high-pass filter? that makes perfect sense to me... at lower volumes, a woofer can have relatively more bass compared to the treble, but as you increase volume, if you keep increasing the bass with the treble you will distort WAY before you max out the tweeters and midranges on the setup.

hey onebadwagon.... if I were to play a test tone CD, and I was able to hear sound from 80hz to 160hz, even though those frequencies are cut out by the deck... what would that mean? just that the 12db isn't strong enough, and I need 18db/octave?

onebadwagon

a higher slope (from 12db/octave to 18db/octave) would worsen those problems.

what i'm telling you is that yes, you will hear them, but there will be reduced output while those frequencies are being crossed over.

ScrapMaker

understood...

so I guess what I want to know is... do you guys play your speakers at 80hz+? and how loud can they get before they have too much excursion to where they distort?

I'd need a damn sealed box to play my 6x9s at HALF volume at 40hz... or they'd rip themselves apart.

onebadwagon

then you don't put as much power into them,

ScrapMaker

whoa... then I lose my high-output capability...

clearly it would be ideal if something simply limited excursion at high volumes...

onebadwagon

THERE IS! your amplifiers gain setting, you can leave it the way it is, and have it sound less than optimal, that's fine.

ScrapMaker

hehe...

no one else has this problem? ... because pretty much everyone I've ever met does the same thing... they put their stereo as loud as they feal comfortable listening to it... and they adjust the stereo so it doesn't sound like crap at that point...

for me, I have to pretty much put it at 160hz for the 6x9s and 200hz for the plates...

now I must admit that the kappa plates are not among the best... and my 6x9s can get much louder without sounding like crap...

maybe I just need better speakers?

hey onebadwagon... I just want some perspective here... lets say you normally listen to your stereo at 20% of the maximum volume that you would ever play... you would set the eq and and cut-offs so that it sounds good at the 20%... but then all the sudden, you roll down your windows on the highway, and you turn it to 100% volume (YOUR maximum volume, not the stereo's limit,) you will most likely have distortion via over-excursion and you may have to adjust the cut-offs and eq... what do you personally do in this situation?

hell... maybe it really is just my speakers, and everyone else's have amazing cross-over's that limit excursion while still allowing high volume output (assuming it's a 2-way speaker)

I kinda wish I had an SPL mic so that I could tell how loud my speakers were getting... maybe I'm over-driving them... but I doubt the 4160 can do that with 80rms per plate... and 160 per 6x9...

sesand

If you're cutting the frequencies, even with the gain unchanged, you're also decreasing the power the speakers are receiving. So if your amp is set to run at 75 watts in its full frequency range and then you high pass it at 160Hz, your speakers are no longer receiving 75 watts - in fact it would be far less.

sesand

Personally, I never play my speakers to distortion, cause it sounds like crap and it's bad for the equipment. Every system has it's flaws, and you always have to make decisions between SPL and SQ.
The bass increases when you roll the windows down because there is less cancellation of frequencies, not because of increased excursion capabilities (the size of the box is the more important limiting agent for excursion). If you hear more distortion with the windows down, it's because the level of distortion increases with the overall volume.

firebirdjosh

iTrader: (1)

I disagree with the whole "technically you want a completely FLAT response". Sound coloration can be good, hence why audiophiles pay thousands for tube stereo (known for their coloration). But anyway...

I'm not sure of your question. EQ response changes with the volume, maybe you need an auto adjusting EQ so the sound isn't so different with the windows open? I just roll the treble down when the windows are up and my problems are solved. If you have ANY distortion then turn it down and get better quality stuff.

onebadwagon

i doubt your speakers can take anywhere near that much power with any kind of real music.

I never turn my equipment up 100%, and I sure as hell don't pay just to listen to it at 20%, so no, i don't have your problem.

ScrapMaker

It's interesting that the kappa plates can get extremely loud and extremely crisp when I pass them over at 160hz+.... but they distort at the same volume with it playing 100hz+.... (and they aren't distorting by excursion)

is the crossover really that bad in these things? it sounds like the tweeter is gonna bust sometimes, and that's why I used to cap them...

yesterday I was messing around with the cut-offs... and I found that if I cut the plates and the 6x9s, AND I use the auto time alignment in my deck, that it sounds much better... it can get decently loud without distorting...

aaron7

iTrader: (7)

Anyway, back to topic... you get what you pay for. You can get an emachines for way less than a Sony Vaio with the same specs... and why is that? Same reason as all electronics, higher quality parts.

You could have two brands, on 2 different exremes of the price spectrum, with the same specs. BUT where do the components come from? What is the tolerable variances in specs (resistance, capacitance, etc.)?

I was going for a cheaper head unit, but I settled on the Pioneer DEH-P8600. Sounds great and there is plenty of settings to play with!

ScrapMaker

it's a shame the TA sounds like crap on the 8600...

what do you think Aaron? I always lose all the 'fullness' of the music... and I actually enjoy it when the sound is surrounding me... kinda like surround sound.

the Auto EQ works great though... makes the unit worth $449(as of last year,) along with the WMA and awesome sound-shaping tools...

don't forget the menu system, but it's not perfect... still better than any other...

'cept I hear the p80mp is supposed to rock the boat... guess we'll find out.

aaron7

iTrader: (7)

Mine surrounds me and the sound is very full, but it might be my speakers or settings, I don't know.

I have never tried the auto EQ, I just sat there with a pile of cd's and tuned it for hours lol

I just love the fact that I can upload movies to it and watch myself burnout on my radio!