zya5point0

iTrader: (4)

I've done a couple searches and haven't found exactly the info I'm looking for...Since I have my whole interior out I figure its a good time to run some wiring to set the car up for a killer system! Let me start buy saying I'm not looking to build a competition system. This car will be my daily driver when its done. All I want is a nice all around system suitable for all kinds of music and some "kick". At my age I don't care about rattling windows in the car next to me, but sometimes I still like my music loud! I'm a mechanic, not an audio expert, so I need some advice. I figure I'd do a pair of subs in the back, 4 speakers in factory locations, and run extra wires to the doors so I could add speakers later. I figure 1 amp for a set of subs and maybe an amp for the other speakers if needed. My head current head unit is a kenwood KDC-MP242. It has 2 output cables labeled "front" and "sw rear" jacks. I could upgrade it later, but for now I wanna work with what I got. Looking for speaker recommendations for stock locations and subs with amp. Also, I do know that wires can make a big difference in sound quality, so need some advice with wires as well. Thanx guys, brent.

inkedbass

Ok lets start here.

COPPER (OFC) IS COPPER!!! Now Copper Clad Aluminum (CCA) is a shitty substitute. If you have the same thickness (guage) wire brand name does not make a **** bit of difference.

What type of music do you listen to? Why are you so intent on using the stock locations only? Why rear panel speakers?


Use the SW/Rear RCA's for your subwoofer amp. The fronts can run a nice 4 channel amp if you won't budge on the rear speakers. The reason I ask about the rears is because there is NO NEED for them, so why waste the money?


Lets go from here bro.


J

1RedCamaro

2 4 channel amps. a capacitor to protect your altinator and electrical system, My advice run ONE dual voice coil sub. Either 10 or 12- its all you need and will keep the weight down. Dont bother running speakers in the doors, you wont need them, just decent replacement speakers will do fine.

Save your money and run dynomat. Camaros need very little to sound good.

One bit of advice you dont hear much- make sure you get a head unit with a NON-FADER OUTPUT.

What that does is allow you to turn the bass in your interior speakers off and allow the subs to put out all bass signal. Cheaper head units will increase bass when you increase it in the interior as well. That beats up your mid range speakers trying to put out bass, and distorts the mid range capability.

JL AUDIO are extremely efficient subs- Also Alpine Type R

I used to work for an audio car install place- The rule is "A DOLLAR PER WATT"

Dont go by the box "2400" watts is a joke, if you read the fine print thats at .010 ohms wich is impossible for you to run. (you will run at 2 or 4 ohms) 2400@.101 is the same as 400 @ 4ohms or something like that. so a 400 watt amp should be 400 bucks.

Diamond audio makes a killer set of speakers that could go in your 5x9 area. ITs a tweeter and a kevlar 5/1/4 and they come with a crossover. They sound amazing. I made a 5x9 plate and made a cutout for the 5/1/4. Sounds amazing.

Ive had those kickplates for the front speakers 5-1-4 they suck in my opinion they almost hit your brake pedal, i dont think a stickshift would ever work with those

For power: 4 gauge should be fine: RCAs id ont think matter much what kind. I always put one fuse by the battery and buy a fuse/distribution block for the rear.


Hope that helps

theaudiophile12

iTrader: (1)

Ive been working on stereos since i was 15 years old, first of all do not buy a capacitor, they do nothing. If youre worried about power issues upgrade the front battery to something like an optima yellow top or xs power, and think about putting a second battery in the trunk but thats only if youre going over a 1000 watts rms with both amps combined.....

Second, the rear speakers, you dont need them, as said above. Spend money on the front, and think about either putting a pair in your doors or getting kick panels. q-logic makes them, or you can fiberglass them yourself, and as for the door you can fiberglass or find some shallow mount speakers and cut a hole....ive seen it done but i reccomend the fiberglass more.

You will need a 4 channel for the speakers, and a mono for the subwoofer, or a 2 channel thats bridgeable, but mono is better. 500 watts rms on a 12 inch subwoofer ported does more then enough IMO for our camaros, and this is coming from a guy who has a huge system in his daily driver that rattles windows and flexes the body......

Do no cheap out on the wire, go for knu konceptz 0 gauge, you can use CCA 0 gauge from a brand like knu konceptz, its thicker then the avg 0 and therefore the lack of pure copper doesnt have any effect, trust me ive been doing systems for a while. especially if your staying under 1500 watts.... no reason why you would need any more.

Sound deadening is a must on these cars, for mine i did the whole roof, if your carpet is out do the whole floor. do the rear hatch as well. for the box its better to have something built, you can go with an ebay box, cut the top off and do your own port and cutout, for a better tuning. any profesional box designer or builder will point you in the right direction, the subwoofer setup is only as good as the box its in!!! very important.

For the headunit, what you have now will do, but if you decide to upgrade get something with 6 channel rca output, and 4volt preouts.... i think i covered most of it, these cars dont take much to sound good at all,aftermarket speakers on a aftermarket stereo alone with no amps already sounds pretty loud in these cars, so you will be amazed what a little amp will do for you. good luck

1RedCamaro

what do you mean capacitors do nothing? A capacitor holds power to prevent voltage spikes when the amp draws power on base hits. A larger battery or alternator will NOT prevent that.

The voltage spikes will continue throughout the system unless a capacitor is there to provide the voltage until the system makes up for it.

"A car audio power cap works by storing large amounts of electrical power which it can then deliver to power hungry components when called upon to do so. They have an advantage over typical lead acid storage batteries because they have very low internal resistance. This allows them to deliver large amounts of power (current) very quickly. Much faster than a car's charging system can deliver that same amount of current."

here the link http://www.caraudiohelp.com/car_audi...capacitors.htm


I suggested this as a precaution to you cars electrical system. It will prevent blown alternators, lights dimming, electrical issues.

Its not at all a must, but at 150-200 bucks its a great investment. Ask any pro audio shop and Im sure they will agree its a wise idea.

As far as them not doing anything- DO SOME RESEARCH and make up your own mind.

theaudiophile12

iTrader: (1)

they do nothing because they only put out a small amount of power when u need it, but in the long run theyre useless, they cant continue putting out the power over and over they cant store enough not even the huge 30 farad caps.... theyre like bandaids....not a permanent solution to voltage drop. strong and multiple batteries are what prevent voltage drops, and if your alternator is weak it should be upgraded too i should have mentioned that. i have talked to pro audio shops, only when they want to make a sale theyll tell u its needed, the ones who know what theyre doing will tell u its a waste.

and also ive done serious systems im talking about thousands of watts rms.... never used a cap in my life. ive installed them for people when they insisted, only because i do what the customer wants. i do tell them its useless but hey its whatever they want at the end of the day

inkedbass

Ok to continue this debate

CCA- run a voltage test of 20 ft. do it over say 2 weeks of normal use. Then replace it with OFC. You will see a terrific difference.

Audiophile is correct though, Knu makes some of the best wire out there. I own Knu wire I use for myself only and another brand that I use for my big three upgrades and then for installs I do for other people.


Camaro- The Capacitor is like putting a band air on something that needs stitches. Yea it kinda fixes the issue........For a moment, then blood is all over again.

Think of electricity like water in pipes. Bigger wire=bigger pipe. bigger pipe=more water in less time. You get a bigger alternator, then you have an upgraded water pump to push the water. A bigger battery is a bigger storage tank for getting the water started. Once the water is flowing and the tank is full its already going down the pipes. Where would a shot glass of water (cap) help in this? Once the shot glass is hooked in and the pressure from the flowing by water worn the bottom of it out and its just sitting there stealing water (bad cap with dropped/dead cells) because it won't hold any with a blown out bottom.


As for speakers, again I am a HUGE advocate of doors or kicks. If your car is an automatic and you would be interested in some kick panels for your third gen I've got a set here I'd let go for a low price. As for amps I have to disagree with the 'dollar per watt' mindset. It was that way as recently as 2004, but today, a good amp can be had cheaply. Below is a small 'off the top of the head' list of companies I would consider by product.


CD/MP3 player
-Pioneer (Non Walmart editions)
-Kenwood
-Alpine
-Sony (non Walmart editions)
-Nakamichi (basic as hell but AMAZING SQ)
-JVC (very basic but does the job cheaply)

CD/MP3/Video/Navigation
-Pioneer
-Alpine
-Kenwood (a bit complicated but nice decks)

Amplifiers (multi Channel)
-Sundown Audio
-JL Audio
-McInteosh
-US Amps
-Kicker
-AudioQue
-Digital Designs
-PPI
-Sony Mobile ES (this line only)
-Rockford Fosgate (especially the pre 1999 lines)

Daily Use Mono Blocks (often have 2 sets of outputs for the subs but are internally bridged. You MUST check your manual to find out for sure)
-Sundown Audio
-JL Audio
-US Amps
-Kicker
-AudioQue
-Digital Designs
-PPI
-Rockford Fosgate (especially the pre 1999 lines)


SPL Mono Blocks (amps commonly used by people who are chasing DB's in a competition)
-Stetsom (they don't like voltage spikes AT ALL)
-Sundown Audio
-Orion
-Kicker Warhorse
-Earthquake
-Digital Designs
-Crossfire
-Audio Que
-Cactus Sounds

Speakers (Coaxial/3/4 way speakers)
-JL Audio
-Eclipse
-Kicker
-Pioneer
-JBL

Componants (2-4 seperate speakers)
-Rainbow
-Eclipse
-JL Audio
-Pioneer premier
-Digital Designs
-Alpine
-Mix and match of your own desires

Wire
-Knu Koncepts
-XS Power
-Rockford Fosgate
-Q Power (for easy uses)
-Stinger (overpriced)
-Jl Audio (overpriced)

RCA's
-Stinger
-Knu Koncepts
-JL Audio
-Kicker

Subwoofers (daily use aka some Sound Quality)
-JL Audio
-Eclipse
-5500 or below level Digital Designs
-Kicker (anything besides Solo X)
-Orion
-MMATS
-TC Sounds (gone but still good)
-Sound Solutions Audio (except Zcon)

SPL Subs
-DD9500/9900/Z series
-Sound Solutions Audio Ion and above including Zcon
-Solo X
-MMATS Juggernaut
-Orion HCCA
-Eclipse Titanium
-Earthquake


Anything I forgot?


J

theaudiophile12

iTrader: (1)

I knew someone else would soon come in and back me up on the capacitor, i cant be the only one who knows that they are completely useless. Also nice to see someone else on this forum who also really knows his stuff about car audio, i know who i can come to for ideas on my camaros system..... my camaro is stock. im running sundown audio in my daily driver

theaudiophile12

iTrader: (1)

oh one other thing, i have some beat up kick panels for my camaro, they could use refinishing, and my car is a 5 speed. i have no system in my camaro right now not even a radio, but i did put the kick panels in to see if my clutch will get in the way, or if it bothers me while driving, it doesnt bother me....... stays clear of the clutch just enough.

The Project

iTrader: (6)

There are some good threads. Keep searching.

Speaker sound is VERY subjective. Go to a few stereo shops and give a listen. Bring a cd of music that you like.

One 12" sub will work just fine. You would have a hard time hearing a difference between two 10" subs and a single 12. Don't spend a fortune. JBL GTO 12" is cheap and a very good sub (good enough to be in world champion cars).

Budget is everything and proper wiring is a MUST. Do the BIG 3 and save yourself some headaches. Uses fuses to protect. Knu wiring is very good.

I'm not a fan of capacitors. They CAN be useful, but in 99% of the systems they are a waste...including what you're doing. Save your money. Don't forget the BIG 3 (in 4 ga minimum).

Amps - look at a single 5 channel (kicker is pretty good).

Simple is cheaper and easier.

If you want to run sound deadener, dynamat is good, raamat is as well and a little cheaper.

You don't need to spend a fortune to sound good.

zya5point0

iTrader: (4)

Wow, talk about information overload! Ok, 1st, I realize copper is copper, was wondering more about the size for speaker wires(and how much difference it makes). Somewhere in the garage her I have a roll of speaker wire that's is twice as thick as the oem speaker wire. That's why I was asking about that. As far as speaker location, I'm not picky...just looking for good accoustics(?). The car is a stick, so I'd rather put speakers in the doors than the kick panels(I have an extra set now so I'm not afraid to cut holes in them). Forgot to ask, I already have 2 amps laying around that I'd like to use for now if possible. They're old, but I know they work. One is a kenwood kac-716(I think 100watts) mono power and the "big one" is an old kicker ix404(I took it to a stereo shop a couple years ago and the guy told me it was like 350 watts). I do plan on finding a good local stereo shop for more details, but I wanted to put this out there to set up and run some wires in the meantime. This wasn't even on my agenda this year till I decides to do the interior swap, but you guys know how it is...why go back and re-do something when you can change it now?! Lol. And thank you everybody for the input! Oh, and btw, as far as type of music, most of the time its classic rock and 80's "hair metal", but sometimes I love cranking up some hip-hop or retro dance music...so for subs, I'd go with whatever would work for me.

inkedbass

Sounds like a single 12 setup based on your musical tastes I am going to assume SQ is more important than actual impact for the subwoofer for you, so I'd say ported tuned to around 34-36 hz.

As for the wire IMO no thinner than 18 awg. Preferably 14 or 12. As for the difference, the more wire to carry the power the better for your results. Can I get some pics of the amps? Might help make the decision to use/get new easier.

For sound deadener look up 'Sound Deadener Showdown'. Don will answer all your questions with his web page.


J

zya5point0

iTrader: (4)

Cool, thanx! Shooot me an email address and I can take some pics and send them.

inkedbass

upload then to photobucket and share them on here. Let everyone who has some audio knowledge chime in here and help you make an educated decision.


J

Broone115

if SQ is what your going for, go to partsexpress.com and pick up Dayton Audio tweeters and either Hivi or Dayton midrange woofers (component speakers) and run an 7 band equilizer with active crossovers, thats what ive got in my car and the SQ is absolutely beautiful, nothing beats it, Dayton and Hivi are the cheap but very high end speakers and meant for home theater sound systems but can easily be installed in cars (theres no difference). Just some advice if you want serious sound quality

LoudTransAm

For what you want you could use Knukonceptz cca wire. Its cheap and will get hte job done. Could look into a single 8" sub like the sundown sa8. Id def go ported around 32-36 hz maybe even a tad higher based on your majority musical taste. Find a nice set of comps or build your own. I used Quantum Pro Audios in my last build and the ywere amazing. Can get a good set of pro audios and decent tweeters for under $100 and cross them over correctly and youll be happy. Could even look into a eq like the clarion eqs746 so you can adjust your sound with music and you can use your current headunit since the eq uses the front ch out of the hu and then you have front rear and sw and aux out of the eq. You have alot to look at. I have doen car audio for yrs and I never could find a system I liked lol. my last system was 2-18s on 8k walled in my 4 door blazer which became a 2 seater. I had 12-6.5s and 12-1" tweeters on 3k watts and wasnt happy even after I blew out my windshield. So find what you liek within your budget. Dont ask for opinions cause everyone has a diff opinion then yours and youll only become more agitated over what to buy lol

BlackFormula

iTrader: (3)

i would just go by best buy and let them wire it up :-)
they do a great job

inkedbass

Blew out your windshield eh? How many db's did ya hit? What ctual equipment was used? Competition organization?


J

inkedbass

Please dear god don't follow this. 95/100 times BB will screw an audio install up worse than a complete crackhead.


J

zya5point0

iTrader: (4)

I repeat my previous statement...talk about information overload!! Ok, a "big" stereo is not in my current budget so for now I'm gonna work with what I got. I got power windows so I've pretty much ruled out speakers in the doors. For now, before I put the new carpet in, here's my plan...I'm gonna run 1 set of heavier gauge speaker wires from console to stock locations and rca cables and feed wires to cargo well for 1 amp and just use the amp I got for a sub. On top of that, I'll run a 2nd set of rca cables to the cargo area along with another set of speaker wires from there to the factory locations so I can run 2 amps later if I want to go bigger. That being said, recomendations for good speakers in the factory locations? And btw, I'm trying to find a local stereo shop somewhere between Best Buy and the best around! Lol. Thank you to everybody that chimed in!

inkedbass

Power windows means nothing bro. If they don't clear the window, mount them on a wooden spacer on the outside of the panel to have room to clear them.

J

zya5point0

iTrader: (4)

The window isn't the issue, its the window motor. But after checking out a couple door mount speaker pics I haven't ruled them out later on. This whole interior and stereo thing wasn't even on my agenda this year till I got the bug to go with red. For now I just wanna get my interior back together and finish the rest of the car in a few weeks so I can drive it. I got my new red carpet(looks fantastic!) Yesterday so I'm gonna start putting everything back together. I'll run an extra set of wires to go to the doors for later on.

Rosevillian916

Some of the Things ive read in here i was cracking up!

The DOLLAR PER WATT CRAP, IS A THING OF THE PAST!

Crap like JL-Audio your PAYING FOR THE NAME! Its Good stuff just ENTIRELY OVERPRICED!!!!

Do your research... Plain and Simple

Rosevillian916

Yea they do a great job to people that dont know anything...

Ive fixed SO many Bestbuy Audio installs its a joke! They should change there name to WORSTBUY! Audio is SIMPLE You have a Pos+ and a Neg- Its all common sence If you think about it, Dont waste your money on Chain store's... Just reaserch and do it yourslelf, Save yourself some money that could pay for window tinting ect... and you will learn something in the process....

inkedbass

I beg to differ on JL. Yes in store it is costly, but as wil many many products they resell for far less than they retail. Then they hold their value. That being said, look into used JL. You simply cannot beat an amp that can do the same power at one ohm as it does at four.

Also the dollar per watt comment, that has been a thing of the past for at least 10 years now. Power is becoming more efficient, and more reasonably priced each year.


J

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Hmm.

Back to the stiffening capacitor debate.

While it's true that for many years stiffening capacitors have been sold as devices that do something other than they should, as in being a quick add on, to help the electrical system in a completely wrong way, they are useful, when used for the correct reasons.
They are not to be used to keep your headlights from dimming, or as a replacement for a correctly upgraded charging system, what they do however, is fill in the small dips (sags) in voltage that occur when there are transients in the voltage demand from the vehicle's electrical system.

Music is dynamic, meaning that it changes rapidly, and this can cause quite large changes in electrical demand from the charging system, many times per second, especially when it comes to lower frequencies, played at high output levels. The transient demand becomes much more dynamic. There are larger changes in electrical current demand at high output levels than at lower. This should not be a surprise, but stated to re-iterate it.

The problem is that an alternator can take quite long to ramp up it's output to meet the electrical demand placed on it. Buy quite long I mean a number of milliseconds, but when the demand placed on the electrical system due to the transient nature of music and the amplifiers can be in the uS (nanoseconds), this leaves a LONG time where the voltage sags, both reducing output from many amplifiers, and causing the power supplies, and output sections within the amplifier to work harder, which causes more heat than is needed, and more wear on the components within.

A stiffening capacitor, when filled in properly helps fill in these sags, when the demand is increased, since the capacitor can discharge much quicker than an alternator can ramp up it's output and quicker than a battery can discharge, most batteries anyway, there are some designed basically as a large storage capacitor, but these would not be used to start the car anyway.

You still need to ensure that your charging system is proper, as in "Big 3 upgrade" (at least), healthy alternator and battery, sufficient power wire to the amplifier(s), proper and good grounds throughout the vehicle, and proper strong terminations.

Many amplifiers have built in capacitor banks to their power suppliers. Most however, have just even capacitance to run properly on a test bench, that have a stable supply voltage, better ones have more than they need for the test bench, and the better ones, which are also usually the high end competition amplifiers will have large arrays, that will store a lot of energy right at the circuit board, which is best. Getting that capacitor bank, or external stiffening capacitor as close to the amplifier's power supply as possible. We don't drive around test benches and have voltage systems that change in output drastically, based on quite a few factors, demand, heat, age, wear, and corrosion.

Most people who don't play their systems hard most of the time, probably would never notice a difference with or without a capacitor, but for people, who like to make sure that there is every joule of energy available, and to help their components function properly for a long time will add a stiffening capacitor or two.

I tend to stay away from the ones with LEDS, and flashy displays, many of these use inferior capacitors and are trying to sell the flash. I like to find the ones that are just simple canister type stiffening capacitors, like they used to sell many years ago.

General rule of thumb for sizing is 1 Farad for every thousand watts, this is a bit over simplified, but I like to use nothing less than 1 Farad, even for a system of less than 1000 watts, and depending on how the system is physically wired will determine if I use one or more. I like to have the wire length between the stiffening capacitor and the amplifier power terminals as short as possible.

I will will also connect them a little differently than most people, which is likely why I do see improvements in electrical system performance over how they are conventionally connected.
Conventional connection relies on the idea that electrons flow from positive to negative, and will show to connect the main power wire to the capacitor's positive terminal and then from there to the amplifier. The negative terminal will then be ran to the same grounding point as the amplifier on the chassis. This makes for a longer wire length between the capacitor's negative terminal and the amplifier's negative terminal than the positive side.
The way I connect them is to run both the power and ground wires to the stiffening capacitor's respective terminals, and then from there to the amplifier's power input terminals. This makes for pretty equal wire length between the capacitor and the amplifier, and it doesn't matter which flow direction theory you subscribe to, the path is short either way. Electron Flow Theory suggests that electrons flow from negative to positive, opposite of conventional flow theory.

In a related topic, if you can hear the difference between wires (or components), you can win $10000 from Richard Clark, at least used to be able to. It was set-up as an amplifier comparison challenge, but similar testing has been done with cables and other components as well.
http://www.tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/index.htm

This is Richard Clark's Grand National, which was a VERY winning Audio competition vehicle from the late '80s to the mid '90s, at least you could, I'm not sure if he still has that offer out there or not anymore.

This is just one iteration of the system and paint scheme on that car:
http://www.mobilesoundscience.com/f3...1992-ca-e-447/
http://www.usdaudio.com/sw/cars/buick/


As for what components to use, that will be your call in the end. Buy the best you can, within your budget. If you need to, buy a few piece at a time.

For most people, using the stock locations is fine including the rear speakers. For many people, they don't need or desire to have perfect staging, where it sounds like the band is playing on your hood, and just want to listen to some music while driving, and maybe a bit louder and more acoustically pleasant than a stock system can provide.

For myself, I usually don't install any rear speakers, but do use rather large front speakers, usually no less than 6.5" for the midbass/midrange speakers. In many cars this means cutting out existing openings larger, or building new locations, such as kick panel enclosures for new speakers. Not everyone wants to go through this effort or expense, for what many people will see as a marginal improvement, audiophiles will say otherwise.

The nice thing about the 3rd gen F-body is that the rear of the car is designed much like a horn, and this is why placing a subwoofer, even with low power in the hatch well, wil sound like much more than it is. Do some research on horn loaded speakers, if you're interested in knowing more about the acoustics of why it works. Deciding how much space you want to give up for the audio system will help determine how many subs, of what size and enclosure type you will use.

I will suggest that you use an external amplifier on all of the speakers, including the mids and highs. The control that a properly designed external (as opposed to the one built into the head unit) has, is a great improvement, and you will notice the difference. It's not just about playing louder, but about playing cleaner, with more dynamic ability and transient response.

Your head unit only has the ability to connect through RCAs to either Front and Rear, OR Front and Subwoofer, the rear outputs are switchable between full range rear output or just low pass subwoofer signal. In some of the Kenwood head units this also affected rear speaker level output as well, since they claimed at one time to be able to power subwoofers directly from the head unit. This isn't really a concern, unless you want to be able to fade the sound front to rear from the head unit control. For me, it would be something that would get set-up at the time of install, and left alone, so a good 4 channel amp, to power the front and rear speakers, fed from a single RCA pair would be fine. I would however, run two pairs of RCAs for this, just in case you ever changed the head unit to one that has triple (or more) line out. There will be a third set for the subwoofer amp then as well.

As far as brand selection, that again, is entirely up to you, and what is available where you purchase from. I do have some favorite brands, but I also have other brands of choice that serve the purpose well, especially when it comes to a system for the average user.

Keep in mind that EVERY brand has products that fail and most have products that don't, so just because one person has had a bad experience with that brand once, does not mean that everything from that brand is bad as well.

I like to buy as much clean power as possible. Speakers more often than not fail because they are underpowered, not overpowered, or are driven by a dirty signal, it doesn't matter what power you have then, a dirty signal (distortion, clipping, noise) will damage a speaker in short time. In many cases I have ran an amplifier that is rated at double the speakers rated input power handling, and not been gentle either, with a clean signal, where the amplifier has good power supplier and stays out of clipping, the speakers, will live a long time. Now there is a mechanical limit, but that is independent of the thernal (power handling) limit.

In one case (my old Sunbird), I left the stock 3.5" speakers in the dash, which were many years old by the time I got it, and ran then at 10 times what their rating was. On the back was "5watts" printed on the magnet, I ran them from a RoDEK 4x50w amp (which when benched did closer to 60W per channel, and those speakers sang and lived for the entire time I had that car, which was a few years. I will mention that I did have a high pass filter set at around 120 Hz IIRC, to protect the speakers from too much mechanical movement, which is just a whole 'nother topic on getting speakers to survive.

Rosevillian916

did you seriously type all that out!? your fingers must be sore lol ^^^^

Ruckusz28

iTrader: (3)

I've been Advanced Certified by the MECP for 6 years in the industry.

The industry standard states that a stiffening cap is nothing more than a bandaid for using too small of a power wire. I bet you that if you are having issues, upgrade your big 3 with 1/0 and run a larger power / ground wire and your problem will go away.

Lots of people use these as a "problem solver" for the fact that their car's alternator can't hold up to the excessive electrical demand of a high power amplifier.

Ruckusz28

iTrader: (3)

I used to think that about JL audio. Their cheap stuff is over-rated, i agree.

I did some research one day at the shop mapping out frequency responses in the recommended enclosure volume and i was AMAZED. Nearly a perfect flat response. I've never looked back since.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

LOL, I was MECP certified over a decade ago. Anyone that knows about MECP knows that it's really nothing more than someone making money of a perceived "standard". While the idea of MECP certification is great on paper, in reality it's worthless. I know a few MECP certified installers, that barely know how to install a basic deck and 4 properly, while I know people that have never taken any formal training that can build very elaborate systems, that sound and work amazing, many times with innovative ideas.

I have no idea where you get your "industry standard" from, other than the internet, because anyone that is actually working in the industry, or has for many years and understands the function of a stiffening cap, will understand when to use them, and most of all, why to use them. Not every system needs them, and not every install will benefit from them, but they do have a place.

This idea that stiffening caps do nothing has only been perpetuated by internet lore, while I agree that in many installs, a stiffening cap has been used for the wrong purpose, used correctly, it can help the audio and electrical systems.

Rosevillian916: Yes, I did type all of that out, except the links, I copied and pasted them.

Ruckusz28

iTrader: (3)

I was referring to the MECP as the industry standard. I'll agree with you that experience is key in any situation and I've seen some hack installs come from both sides of the block.

I respect your opinion about the cap, but i'll save my money and put it toward something that I feel is a better option in the long run.

mrrman

WOW...this is alot of info...bottom line...do we need caps of we have done the big 3 upgrade and in my case my amp is rated 850W....

cw3adkins

The cap question will be a large debate for some time and it depends...
Most importantly focus on the the BIG 3; as far as adding a capacitor to the BIG 3 upgrade...it's up to you.

Guys installing, maintaining, troubleshooting and experimenting (for many many years) in the realm of mobile electronic systems (including myself) and sit here and debate the CAP/NO CAP option until we are laying on the ground, blue in the face.

I can tell you that, in my system in my 91, I have beefed up the electrical system (high gauge wire, higher output alternator, running two dry cell batteries) and I am running a capacitor as well.