five7kid

iTrader: (14)

The slots on the secondary side weren't the same length. So, when the secondary blades were closed, one side was exposed and the other one wasn't.

2oldFbody

What base plate do you have Holley or proform? Have you found a way to fix it yet?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Standard Holley 4776 baseplate. I was able to get the secondary idle to work with some picking at the short slot. I wish it idled as well on the primaries as it does now on the secondaries.

2oldFbody

What do you mean by idle on the secondaries,
have you shut the primary's and made it idle on the secondaries only?

mgannon6

Assuming the rest of the combination is correct, the power increase from 9:1 to 14 or 15:1 alone will net a dramatic increase in power. Keep in mind however that this level of compression may not be compatible with a "mild" cam profile. Usualyy these compression levels are only used on all out type engines.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Sorry, missed this back when you posted it.

I mean when bringing the idle speed up with one or the other, it is much smoother with the secondaries. With the transfer slots exposed as they should be on the primaries, it will hardly idle. If I idle only on the secondaries with the primaries closed, off-idle is horrible.

Got some E85-specific parts on the way. We'll see how it does when they're in place.

I've thought about going up to 12.5:1 CR. I'm at about 10:1 now.

2oldFbody

I can see where off idle would be bad with the primary's closed because
there would be no(or very little) air thru the primary's until you go to take off
and fuel flow would probably lag.
Just a thought but would e-85 require more or less timing at idle and maybe
cause idling problems if timing is not correct.
Just reread your previous post If you transfer slots
were screwed up maybe other idle passages are screwed up as well,not lined up,wrong size, idle air
bleeds not drilled thru?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

The idle bleeds are all Proform now. I haven't seen timing make much difference (similar to gasoline, it seems to like a lot). Emulsion is another issue - see previous Quick Fuel comments.

I couldn't find any other problems with the throttle base. But, that won't be an issue shortly. . .

IHI

iTrader: (1)

Are you running iron heads or aluminum heads? I ask because when we dynoed my 427sb the shop owner started me out at 34* and first test was turning it back to 32*, I kinda questioned him and he told me he's never seen a E85 motor take much timing, he says the fuel is so volitale it does'nt need a bunch of lead to set it off right, we went to 32* picked up X amount of pwr, then we tried my way and jumped to 38*....lost a bunch, dropped to 36* and it was better than 38*, but still way off the mark of the 32* which is where it always made the most power. Something to stick in the mental notebook anyways...i know it took me by suprise, and even with my old 388 and the 383 in the s10, both made optimum at lower than normal timing figures, but all are aluminum headed too and were built around trying to max out effeicencey, so maybe that is a little different too when trying to compare to iron heads

Josh

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

My heads are old iron slow burn 1966 chamber technology. I've tried 36-42 with both gasoline and E85, 40 seems best with either.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

An update in the "spending too much money" department:

Received the Quick Fuel alcohol throttle plate and installed it today. Idle is much, much better. Off-idle is much improved. Secondary idle speed adjustment is soooo much easier! Only issues were the PCV fitting was a threaded port, had to adapt that to get the PCV hose hooked up; and no vacuum ports for vacuum advance.

I may just go ahead and drill the passages for timed vacuum in the Proform mainbody, since that the vacuum advance type what MSD recommends - well, guess I'd better verify the throttle plate supports that first.

2oldFbody

five7 do you know what changes quick fuel made to the base plate.
What do you think made it idle so much better.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

The only difference between the alcohol baseplate and the "normal" billet baseplate is they use stainless for the butterflies in the alcohol plate.

I think the more precise machining of the billet piece is what made the difference in the idle.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

In case you didn't see the other thread I posted, the E85 blocks made a huge difference. At the very least, re-do the restrictors as documented by IHI above.

393bird

Any of you guys using E85 with a supercharger blow through carb? I am lookin at doing this very soon, and could use some jetting starting points with a 750 DP.

Mike Tritle

Check back to my conversion articles, posts 15 and 16 on the first page. The upjetting formula will apply to a blower set up as well. I would start on the rich side and work down with the blower. Keep us posted on how this works. I'm thinking the ethanol with it's slow burn characteristics is going to love it! After all, Mark Thomas has been running ethanol in the funny car for years.

393bird

Got it. Not counting the chance of the a rear power valve having a tendency to coming uncovered, having one on both front and rear with a larger pvcr hole, you could allow for the 15-20 % increase at cruise keeping it on the lean side, then get in the 40% at WOT? It would be nice to get a rear power valve to work well with hard launchs.

I am hoping to up my boost from 15 to 20, and cut back on some timing retard with the E85.

Great Information here.

Mike Tritle

If you're talking 15%-20% increase in fuel enrichment at cruise you'll have throttle tip in stumble at low speed. You need at least 30% minimum to retain any drivablility with E85 over gas.

QuickFuel Technologies has the plates you need for a bolt on conversion or you can get complete E85 specific carbs from them as well. Tell Marv there I said howdy. They have done a bunch of research on this topic.

As for the boost, if the bottom end can hold it the fuel will love it. I know a guy who has run 16-1 compression w/o any hint of detonation or loss of power over methanol without the corrosion problems.

2oldFbody

Hey mike how did the cuda run this year?

Mike Tritle

Stuck to the street this year, no racing budget or time. Always started good, no overheating like on gas and surprized more than a couple of guys at the E85 pump. Also surprized a couple of import runners. I would keep up with them and whack it about 3500 in second and just walk away. By the 2-3 upshift I would be a couple lengths ahead. Got a few astonished looks at the next light.

Took a couple of 100+ mile trips including one to an appraizer since it had been a few years since having it done. Got a bit of a surprize as it came in with net worth of more than both our street cars combined. Avg. MPG highway was just over 10 which is pretty near the same as on gas. At current local price at the time of $2.199/gal it's almost livable. Sure miss those days of $.509 Sunoco 2000!

Speaking of mileage, here's something I wrote about a meeting I had with a Prius driver at a gas station on the way to Milan a couple years ago. Good for a couple of laughs.

Prius vs. Muscle Car
(Mostly Fiction Based on Actual Experience, by Mike Tritle)

A nose in the air, I'm better than you, holier than thou tree hugging pig blood slinging PITA supporting Birkenstock shod pony-tailed Prius driver stopped to give me a ration last night about driving that "obsolete inefficient gas guzzling hot rod" and towing it to a waste of time "motor race" behind my outdated fossil fuel sucking oil reserve depleting pickup truck.

Now, I have nothing against Priusses, really, thank God for them, they don't have to visit the gas station often enough to get in my way on the frequent occasions when I need to slide up to the pump. I even rode in one once and was quite impressed with its ability to accelerate into traffic. It was the complete idiot sitting smugly tall in the saddle between the seat back and steering wheel in this particular specimen that raised my hackles. The Sales Manager in me took over... I countered his objection.

I replied, "You are obviously ignorant to the fact that the car on that trailer you refer to as obsolete gets better gasoline mileage than your Prius." His jaw dropped in total disbelief (Probably was offended at being called ignorant. Likely a mislead University of Colorado alumni who held Ward Churchill in high esteem while on the way to his Masters in Protest Management and Big Lie Creation) to which I continued, "Yes, it gets on average over 60 miles per gallon of gas and often as much as 67 MPG." He called me a (expletive deleted) liar!

I replied, "Oh really?" "Well, I have the math to prove it!" "Since the engine has been retuned for and now the fuel in the tank of that classic 70's valuable recycled muscle car is 85% renewable domestically produced US agricultural economy supporting ethanol and it runs between 9 and 10 miles from a gallon of E85 so the Gasoline Mileage is between 60 and 67 MPG." He must have been late for a demonstration because he waved goodbye (but with only one finger) and called me a couple of additional expletives I couldn't hear (But I think he might have insulted my parents) over the whine and whoosh of the hybrid as he drove off.

Sure wish he would have stuck around long enough so I could have told him about the 30-40 mpg of gasoline the truck gets when I top off 50% of the tank with moonshine...

The guy with the Yukon on the other side of the pump island was rolling on the ground laughing hysterically!

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

As we say here: "The People's Republic of Boulder, CO - 36 square miles surrounded by reality."

Hey, if a Prius is good enough to run the Gore family drugs, it's good enough for us common folk.

Mike Tritle

Ahh, you would be well aquainted with the Ward Churchill type!

When I wrote that WC was a headliner in the national news for his whacked out comments. Hope you enjoyed it!

BTW I now run my truck almost exclusively on E85. Am thinking since it was origninally a Gelco lease vehicle it may be one of the rumored clandestine Flex Fuel test vehicles Dodge made for fleet use in the early years. Gets around 8 mpg in town and 12 on the highway compared to 9 town and 13-14 highway on gas. With current price differential I'm saving $.02/mile on E85. I do have to plug in the block heater for easier cold morning starts but I always did that anyway. She sits outside so it's better for it to be preheated and it doesn't impact the electric bill all that much.

westman

Wow this is a pretty cool thread. I figure I'll throw in my 2 cents. My old man has been running E85 in his 500hp 383 for over two years now with a Holley 3310 750cfm vac. sec. carb. At our altitude of 2800 ft. normal gas carbs run #69 jets for small blocks. My big block runs on #71's. When he did the switch for to E85, he called Holley for the proper tuning techniques and the had no clue... Anyways after 3 or 4 months of tuning. He now runs #72 jets, 6.5 power valve, 50cc acc pump, pink cam, and #41 squirter. In other words you gotta dump a quart of E85 into the carb to avoid bogs, stumbles... etc... Spark plugs are a nice light brown. I would like to add that E85 is very very clean burning. Not to mention it a hell of a lot easier on the nose.

Mike Tritle

Is he really getting away with 72 jets? I'm on 84's for the street in my 360 up from 72 on gas. Course we're only 672' above sea level here. With the latest snowstorm we're about 6" higher now...

2oldFbody

Mike (or any one) do you think building an engine with high comp. (12.0-1 plus) would help cold weather starting, in a daily use vehicle with e-85.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

It wouldn't really help with cold starting, as evaporating the liquid before it gets to the combustion chamber is the real issue. It would, however, help with power.

Mike Tritle

This is but a theory, mind you, but I think higher compression might be a benefit to cold starting as long as the starting system was up to the increased pressure. The reasoning behind this is that when cold starting my truck I know there's puddling in the cyls because of the way it runs for a few seconds before catching stride. The heat generated by the compression might just cause the evap needed for a quicker start in a EFI system.

Carbs? Now that would be another story. Have never started the Cuda under 40 degrees nor do I want to because of the high volume oil pump.

In any regard, the freeze plug heater in the truck makes it al moot anyhow. Absolutely no starting problems when it's used.

MrBrooks

Stumbled on this site today. Tons of good info.
http://www.raceone85.com/
He is doing the experiment we all are scared to try-----running a 1998 Lumina on straight E85 with no mod to the car other than taking vacume off the pressure regulator.

Batass

The guys at AED carburetors told me it wasnt a good idea to run a blow through carb with E85. They said there wasnt a safe way to build them yet. Also mentioned the winter vs summer gas and inconsistincies with the fuel.
A lean spell could ruin a supercharged motor....

I'd love to see some power numbers of a 9:1 gas engine vs 12:1 E85....

Mike Tritle

New forum for E85 stuff.

http://www.e85performance.net/forums/index.php

Check it out!
----------
Did it with a Ford Taurus. He's going to get a MIL light. ECM can't understand the extra oxygen and thinks it's running lean. Light will indicate lean mixture on one or more banks. I've only had it show both once but more than 40% ethanol in the tank will brighten up the panel every time!

No problems otherwise. It's aparently a false code because plugs look great with no detonation, stumble or power loss normally associated with lean mix.

Mike Tritle

Winter fuel generally is 70% ethanol so the only lean out danger would be if you tuned to winter and then got a load of summer blend. I called the dealer here and found out that they start mixing winter in November and it's April or May before we get the good stuff. They have been most helpful.

I tend to baseline a bit rich anyway because consistency of blend is still a problem. I've seen a couple hundredth difference from one source to another. That's why I always try to get 3 or 4 time runs to tune into the index prior to qualifying. Keep good records and you'll get a handle on it real quick. Makes no noticable differnce on the street.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I discovered mid-season last year that the track fuel store carries E85. A little higher priced than the station across town, but lower than the station closest to home & the track. It's straight from Wyoming Ethanol, so consistency isn't a problem. I don't run the car during the winter, so it isn't a particular problem for me. I haven't heard if local stations go to E70 or not.

I registered on that other forum. More admins than members so far. I went ahead and posted about my experiences on the Carburetors and Fuel Systems forum.

Mike Tritle

If it's cold out they do. Little more gas makes for better cold starts.

Batass

Well I think thats the problem, it isnt always 85% in the summer, so there would be constant tuning, maybe they are worried about someone blowing their engine up and a lawsuit. This was almost a year ago though. Maybe they have it worked out now and some guidelines to follow.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Since it's supposed to be for "flex" fuel vehicles, they really don't have to do anything they don't want to do. You'll see a difference in price, but supposedly with flex fuel vehicles, it won't matter if it's 70% or 85%. And, they don't want starting complaints, so they'll err on the conservative side. It's us "outsiders" that get bit.

FWIW, I needed to move the car Friday evening, so I went ahead and took it for a little drive. It hadn't been started since November, it was still 85% fuel from the track, and it took a couple of minutes to get it to start. It was about 30 degrees out. After it warmed up, I got on it a couple of times, and it stumbled a little when the secondaries opened - just not quite tuned right for the conditions.

Sure was fun, though. . .

Mike Tritle

Last I had mine out was early December. In the 40's and same deal. Slight off idle stumble. Nothing a jet up wouldn't cure. Now we're under 9" of freezy skid stuff! No play for now.

comp

i wonder about carb iceing ???

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Hmmm, interesting question.

I'd think it would be less of a problem. "Icing" occurs because of the cooling effect of the liquid fuel evaporating in the venturi, freezing the moisture in the air. Gasoline is more volatile than ethanol, so the drop in temp should be less.

I think. . .

Mike Tritle

Since the bulk of the evaporation occurs downstream in the manifold and head carb icing shouldn't be a problem unless the ambient temp is really low and humidity high. High humidity is generally not a problem in really cold air. Add the underhood temp and you have a slim chance of that happening.

Aircraft with air cooled engines have a carb heat control to prevent this but they are changing altitude and cowl temps can be much lower just to keep the engine at normal operating temp.

You see icing on the injector hat of blown alcohol cars at idle but that's because fuel is being injected at that point and is evaporating as it is being sucked down the blower. Naturally aspirated engine might frost the intake manifold but I've not seen that even at the bottom of my air gap manifold.

comp

i have seen it here on 10% but i didn't change the thermostate to a higher temp

Mike Tritle

Wow, on 10%? Was that 10% moonshine? What was ambient at the carb inlet?

comp

not sure exactly,,,, carb body would ice over and bearly run let sit for a few min. (neat soak) and you were OK for a few more mile's
i blocked the rad. with cardboard and it was way better

Mike Tritle

Water doesn't mix with gas, either so it would be seperate from the fuel vapor unlike ethanol which absorbs moisture.

Gasoline only absorbs 900 btu/gal to evaporate at 60 degrees. E85 grabs 2156 btu for same so the surrounding air is way colder with moonshine.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

But there has to be enough heat available for it to evaporate. If there isn't, it will stay liquid, and therefore will not have the cooling effect.

Mike Tritle

Flash point for Ethanol is 55 degrees F and gas -45. That would explain why it takes some compression heat build up to start the engine in the colder weather. By my rough calculations 85% ethanol should flash about 40 degrees and 70% at 25. That explains why the engine runs like a nitro motor for a few seconds until some heat builds in the chambers.

My Dodge truck started fine after sitting 6 hours at the Drag Expo in 3 degree weather with a full tank of winter E85. Just had to crank it about 5 seconds instead of 3 revolutions to get it to hit. I love electronic fuel injection! (Oops, shouldn't state that here on the carburetor formum...)

bbeck

iTrader: (1)

anybody done anything with the carter afb's or a edelbrock? I want to get my dad's small block up on e85 versus running cam2 so he can drive it a bit more.

Batass

It must be possible, one the first carbs I heard of being e85 capable was edelbrock, but I've had trouble actually finding it.

bbeck

iTrader: (1)

I've been on the search for the past couple of years on and off. I've been in touch with rob mix at e85carbs, and he was working on them after the first release in 2007 I believe. And he just informed me that they've sent him a prototype to test.