okfoz

I had the distinguished opportunity to speak to John Schinilla while riding an elevator this past weekend. While cornered I asked him why the Camaro was blessed with a convertible in 1987, but the Firebird was not... His answer was interesting nonetheless, however it brought me no closer to a reason that I can sleep at night with to why it was not until 1991 that the Firebird was a "Factory" option, and was an ASC Dealer thing from 1987 - 1989.

His answer was, "Because Chevrolet always got things first, just like in 1967, the Camaro was first then came the Firebird"

So there you have it... Politics...

John

spade

iTrader: (3)

so in other words... we may have a 5thgen firebird soon

blacksunshine'91

iTrader: (10)

Without a Pontiac Division, we'd be stuck with a Chevy Firebird unless they gave it to Buick!

okfoz

I think that's a stretch... Interestingly the 2004- GTO used the same platform as the new 2010 Camaro, so in essence, there was an exception... The Cadillac Catera (remember those) also used the same platform, I think they still use the same platform in the CTS (but not really sure about that). The G8 used the same platform as the GTO, (but slightly stretched IIRC). (all based off of the Holden platform (Sigma comes to mind))

They could give something like that it to Buick, doubt they will, but there could be a Buick variant, something along the lines of a G8 would be more feasible for Buick honestly. I know that Buick is getting a Regal, which is essentially the same as the Malibu, but with some different pieces. The G8 would have made a good Buick with a few cosmetic tweaks, but I do not see that coming about...

Now that were waaaay off topic, please keep it 3rd gen related.

John

hardon85

I guess that I really don't buy that but I have no way of knowing that it isn't true, but other than the convertible I always thought the firebird had more options than the camaro for the most part, would I be right? I really don't know. But I know the GTA had options that were never seen on any 3rd gen camaro. I always thought that the firebird was kind of marketed as an upscale camaro if that makes sense. I'm not sure but didn't the camaros and firebirds always have the same drivetrain options throughout the entire run? I also believe cosmetic upgrades were done for the 2 cars in the same years (85 and 91). Is there anything different between firebird convertibles and camaro convertibles? It really makes no sense to me as to why this would be, but I don't think that is the reason.

Rolling Thunder

Though I dont know about why firebirds didnt have convertables till long after the camaro I can say that chevy didnt always get things first intentionally. For example the firebird vs the camaros in 67 as the story goes chevy and pontiac were both producing new prototype cars for production. It just so happens that pontiac built the banshee and GM squashed it because they didnt want it to compete with the corvette. Because pontiac spent so much time developing a car that would never be produced they were forced to build a new car based off the camaros chassy make up for lost time. As result the Firebird did come out a bit later than the camaro.

irock88

I have to agree that the firebird was an upscale model to the camaro.
There are some differences of the convertibles such as the tonneau cover release ,back trunk interior(camaro with a lockable glove box in the trunk firebird without)but other items such as trunk lid ,back seat panels,top frames are the same,spoliers I believe are the same correct me if Im wrong.
As to why camaro had the vert first ,could be very true that is because the` camaro got everything first` or they did a test run to see how well they would sell

okfoz

Technically yes, the Firebird base had more options than a camaro base, year for year. The rear compartment was a mid-year change in 1991, all firebird convertibles and mid year 1991 camaro convertibles no longer had the locking compartment found on the coupes.

You could also get more options on a GTA or Trans Am than on a Z28 or IROC.

John

injdinjn

1st gen Firebirds/Camaros did not share drivetrains. The corp engines came into play in the late 70's early 80's due to EPA drivetrain certification costs.
And the 78-79 TA's built for CA with the 400 got the gas guzzeling no power buick 403 and the other 49 States got the go fast Pontiac 400.

Pontiac was always supposed to be a step up from the Chevy and a more performance oriented car. The Buick more a "adult" cruiser and the Olds a poor mans Caddie. But Olds put out some real fast cars, many faster than the Pontiacs due to slightly larger displacement motors.

My Dad bought a "come on" Olds in 69, it was a stripped down Cutlass called the F-85 no radio, no carpeting, V8 and 2-speed auto. But the small Olds V8 was a 350 ci. That was probably the fastest car he owned and he bought as a inexpensive car to just drive around.

JWKbride

I thought the 78-79 Firebird/TA's with auto's with 403 Olds engines vs Buick. All manuals were 400 Pontiac's.....at least thats my understanding.

The last Pontiac engine produced was the 4.9L (301), which came in naturally aspirated and Turbo models for 80-81 model years. This was a sad finish for Pontiac Power.....the 301 and 301T were pretty weak, could not be easily modified and the turbo model was very problematic.

okfoz

I still believe that they had to do EPA testing on each car, unless they were identical IE an early 90's Sunbird vs a 90's Cavalier, which were identical except for stickers. ONe of the things that pushed GM into corperate engines was there was a lawsuit against them saying that they were several different companies and should be broken up because of their size. Of course at that point they started more cross-engineering and cross platform cars to show that the brands were too tightly intertwined to be broken up. I want to think some of that came about in the 60's. The push for a universal engine was not until the 70's and 80's... I know my 77 Buick Electra still had a Buick 350 in it. Dollars and cents wise it made sense to actually use a single 350 V8, what was the point of having multiple engine configurations, when one would do the same job, parts would be cheaper because your producing more etc...

John

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Lotta unvarnished unadulterated BS in this post.

The reason the Camaro came first is because Chevrolet DEVELOPED the Camaro, and then Pontiac DEMANDED access to it after they found out about it. Typical of PMD in that time frame. If you can't DO it yourself, horn in on somebody else that DOES get it done.

Also typical of PMD then, as now, was naming their cars after racing activities they didn't participate in. How many land speed records has a Bonneville EVER held? How many times has a LeMans won the 24 hours of .... LeMans ... - or even, run in it? What racing series for production-stock touring cars did the GTO ("Gran Turismo Omologato") run in, where "homologue" (omologato) production-line cars in some minimum number were required? Anybody ever see a Grand Prix run in any Grand Prix races?? Me either. "An ounce of image is equal in the marketplace to a pound of performance".

Anybody remember what racing series the Z28 was created for (hint: it was an actual "homologue" for a series that required a production run of 500 of them)? And ACTUALLY RAN IN? Anyone?? Well, I do. It was {drum roll please} the SCCA Trans Am series! And of course you know why Pontiac didn't run in it, right? (even though they paid SCCA handsomely for the privilege of naming their car after it, for many years) Because they didn't have, and couldn't come up with, a competitive 5.0 liter motor, to comply with the rules!!

The Olds version of the original A-body GM (Chevy II Chevelle, Tempest, F85, Special) was known as the ..... F85. The Cutlass was a sub-model of it, that later overshadowed the parent name and ate it, somewhat like the Pontiac model ate the Oakland division (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakland_(automobile) ). The 4-4-2 (400 or 4-spd at different times, 4-bbl, dual exhaust) was a sub-model of it also, just as the GTO was a sub-model of the Tempest (as was also the LeMans, yes I had one, beautiful car, fire-engine red, it was a 66 with a pitiful weenie 326), the Skylark was of the Special, or the "Trans Am" was a sub-model of the Firebird.

The crap about "corporate mandate" that "no car can beat the Vette" is the standard mantra of the BOP people and has been for nigh on to 50 years now. It was when first uttered, and remains, BS. Hasn't got to where it smells any better with age. The real deal is more like, the Vette has/had basically as high of a HP/lb ratio as GM was willing to assume "inherently dangerous product" liability for, so no car, Vette or otherwise, could go past that line, wherever it happened to be in any particular year. It's not about "Vette" as such, it's about HP/lb.

The real reason Pontiac didn't have convertibles until however late was because some non-car finance or accounting person with an MBA over there, probably ran a ROI calculation on it, and decided they couldn't recoup even the first DIME of any money they would have spent on it. Total waste of money, which PMD was already bleeding in vast quantities by then. If they had decided to build that car before the financial path was paved ahead of them by the division that could move 3-4 times as many of the VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL car through their showrooms that PMD could, they would basically have had to write a check to people to get them to buy them if they charged what the option REALLY cost. Might as well just pass out $1000 bills at dealerships, would have been just as profitable. Running ads about "Pontiac Excitement" in those days was probably projected to generate 10 times more sales than offering a money-losing "image" car, and at a PROFIT besides, instead of a LOSS. So who bought "Pontiac Excitement" back then? Young women. People who wanted the "image" but weren't particularly concerned about performance. Which is why the Firebird has ALWAYS looked sharper than the Camaro from DAY ONE in 1967 (yes I was there), but weighed more, handled worse, had gaudier graphics, rode softer, and had cushier seats.

I get so tired of seeing this same crap spewed over and over again. It's about as bad as the typical "what's my car worth" spank-off that Firebird people have been arguing over since the 70s. You all know what I mean... "my car has B42 which 'triggered' P15, and that wasn't available in cars with Palm Jungle Green interiors unless the dealer's second cousin also special-ordered AJ6, but mine has B42 without P15 or AJ6 and has the Palm Jungle Green interior so surely it's 'worth' at least $5000 more than a 'regular' B42 car even though those were all RA3 400s but mine is 'rare' because it has a straight 6" kind of thing. You know, a total disconnect from the idea that a thing is worth what somebody else will pay for it, without understanding of the real-world fact that no matter how "rare" it is, if NOBODY CARES, then it's WORTHLESS.

/rant mode off

Excuse me if I offended anybody, I just couldn't stand it any longer. Reality is a bit harsh sometimes.

I had Pontiacs for many years. I was and still am a fan. My first car was a 59 Catalina. Gorgeous car, 389 with a 4-speed automatic. I have had quite a few of them since including the afore-mentioned 66 LeMans. I try not to let my appreciation for the aesthetic aspect of their cars, which I will freely agree they always built REALLY PRETTY cars, cloud my judgment about anything beyond just, how they looked.

92 Camaro

iTrader: (1)

well you're wrong about one thing. Pontiac DID run in the Trans Am series.
actually a few. the Firebird was always more powerful (excluding the special non chevy orders), the first ones DID weigh less, nothing gaudy about a bird breathing fire, (that's ridiculous), and a 68 Firebird Ram Air 400 weighed 3061 pounds. what about a 68 SS?
Pontiac was supposed to build their Firebird separate from the Camaro, but then something happened about no time to produce it since the Camaro was then coming out and they wanted to also compete with the Mustang. I'm glad this happened though.

okfoz

Actually... The 3rd Gen Camaro convertible was developed more by ASC than Chevrolet in 1985... The Firebird convertible was developed shortly thereafter by ASC in 1986. Interestingly about 604 Firebird convertibles were made from 1986 - 1989, in the majority were made 1989 when ASC made 324.

If your referring to the 1st Gens, your not too far off. Originally John Delorian wanted a 2 seat sports car for Pontiac, you can look it up under "Banchee" Motor Trend has some really cool pictures here : http://images.search.yahoo.com/image...034db32bd2a9fb you can clearly see some ideas that actually the 1968 Corvette took styling cues from...

Ultimately Pontiac did not get their 2 seat sports car until 1984, when the Fiero was released, underpowered and cursed with engine fires in the beginning, doomed it to an early demise, a 5 year run that lasted until 1988.

How true, But that's neither here nor there, no one is arguing that, nor mentioned it....



Apparently there were some Firebirds that raced in Trans Am, according to one site either the Firebird Trans Am, or Pontiac actually won the series 7 times, the last time was in 1984. (wikipedia)

Just a little note... the original 4-4-2 originally was 4bbl, 4 on the floor and 2 exhaust. In 1965 it took on your definition of 4bbl, 400 & 2 exhaust, in the 85-87 resurrection 4spd Auto, 4 BBL, and 2 Exhaust http://www.442.com/oldsfaq/of442.htm...Meaning%28s%29

For years and years, cars had sub models, and unique or altered names to denote their specialty. The Buick Regal was a up scale Century, then it was its own model, then it became an up scale Century again, The Park Ave, was the deluxe Electra, eventually becoming its own model, the Electra 225 to never return again. Arguably even the Berlinetta had a unique VIN, to denote its specialty from the Camaro, the Z28 was an option on the Base Camaro. The S/E was a sub model of the Firebird, as was The Trans Am as you mentioned. However the GTA was an option package for the Trans Am, likewise the Formula was an option package on the Firebird. Although starting in 1988 they were marketed as different models, the Formula is still a Firebird as per the VIN, the GTA is still a TA as per the VIN.

From the ever reliable source of Wikipedia. " The high-compression 326's output was 260 hp (197 kW) and 352 ft·lbf (477 N·m) of torque. The actual displacement was 336 cubic inches, but according to lore, since no GM division was allowed to have a motor larger than the Corvette's 327, the advertised number was 326." found it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_Tempest

I think it was Jim Mattison that made mention of this as well at the Trans Am nationals around 2002.


"Chevrolet [is] for the hoi polloi, Pontiac for the poor but proud, Oldsmobile for the comfortable but discreet, Buick for the striving and Cadillac for the rich." http://www.engaginglandowners.org/ne...eted-marketing

Anyone that buys a car as an investment is a foolish investor. If you like the car and you want one, then buy one. There are trends that come and go, and ultimately if you happen to like something that a bunch of other people like and there are not many of them, then you got lucky.

Really this would have made a better new thread...

John

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

There's that stupid drivel getting spewed again... I guess whoever wrote that finds it convenient to ignore the Pontiac 389 (such as was in my 59 and in the GTO as well), the 348 and 409 Chevy, the various motors in Pontiac, Cadiallac, Buick and Olds that were all larger than the 283 or later the 327 in the Vette, etc. And of course, the ACTUAL FACTS about the 326, which are inconvenient to that idiot's falsehood: the 326 had a 3.71875" bore x 3.75" stroke, which is 325.8 CID. I guess someone needs to go to Wikipedia and edit that out. The Internet deserves better than simply perpetuating the same old lies.

You're right the original 442 was 4-spd, 4-bbl, duals; it wasn't until a year or 2 after introduction that they changed its meaning to 400, 4-bbl, duals, when they put a 400 engine and a Turbo 400 in it. They're sort of interchangeable nowadays.

I didn't mention about the F-85 either, that it actually started out (along with the Buick and Pontiac) as the same basic body as the Corvair. The 4 cars had various different (and I mean REALLY different, not just a Chevy V8 vs a Buick or Olds or whatever, in front of the same trans and rear axle) drive train configurations. I found it interesting in the late 60s that all of Ralph Nader's hate on the Corvair wasn't visited on those other, essentially identical siblings. The Pontiac in particular used the same transaxle setup as the Corvair although its engine was in the front.

Note that the cars in the race pic are 69s; NOT 67s. And of course, that the Bird looks like it was 'Chopped in, and I do mean "chopped", as in, with a razor blade; look at the fender flares and tire widths, which aren't consistent with either the rules, or the other cars. Pontiac did in fact run in that series, LATER, with Chevy engines in at least some of their entries. The last Trans Am race I actually went to, I guess it was in about 1990 or so, there were Birds in it, presumably with the Chevy motors like the Camaros.

I think if we can concentrate ourselves on the facts, and not repeat ignorant childish bickering like the "Vette" crap ("Mommy! Mommy! his ice cream is bigger than mine!!!"), but instead keep our heads firmly grounded in reality, we can make a much more reliable source of information instead of merely perpetuating misdirected enthusiast cult "belief". Big difference between "knowledge" about "history", and "belief" or as the Wikipedia article so succinctly put it, "lore". They hit the head right on the nail with that one. "Liking" something, or being JEALOUS about something else, doesn't endow one with some kind of right to make up myths to replace reality.

92 Camaro

iTrader: (1)

Sofa, if you were to see the Camaros of the same year racing, they ALSO had the flares. explain that one please. if it's illegal, how is it racing?



here's more of the firebird:
firebird behind the mustang that appears to have very little or no flare. can't tell.
no flare. Milt Minter drove a trans am in 1970 Donnybrooke, July 5 — Milt Minter 1st
Did you choose to ignore these when you wrote this?

Guest

Really? Sales of Firebirds were already down in 1991 and they were going to change the body in a couple years so... then they decide to go even further into a ROI hole by making a convertible, when nobody wants the cars at all? Sure, makes total sense.

injdinjn

Probably was the Olds 403. Either way it was detuned POS for CA only.

I believe cost of emissions testing drove GM to corporate engines. Even in the 60's all chrysler products had the same engines and Ford and Merc I think shared engines. Andy little difference in the drivetrain and the EPA requires a new test report and these ain't cheap.

One reason we could not get 70's performance cars in CA with 4sp trans was the cost of emissions testing for CA. The cost of testing did not justify the low demand here.

injdinjn

You know Jim Wanger's is still around and out here in Carlsbad, Ca. In fact they are having a show there in Nov. So if you want the real facts contact him I know from talking to him he loves to pass on REAL facts about Pontiac.

yankeecarman

iTrader: (9)

Saw Wangers talk here in Melbourne, Australia a few months ago. Not a bad evening.

okfoz

You hit on the initial problem with the Corvair, With the rear engine setup the weight distribution would cause the rear of the car to swing around. By the time Nader came out with his complaints the problem had been recognized by GM and corrected, by simply putting a steel weight in the front of the car. Unfortunately Nader killed it regardless to make a name for himself. The Pontiac with the rear trans front engine did not have the problem because the weight distribution was completely different.

It should be noted that the 336 was a one year only thing, in 1964 the engine bore was made smaller to make the actual displacement 326...

Article #1) -CONCEPT CARZ
http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z...c-Tempest.aspx

(article #2) - From PONTIAC SAFARI
http://www.pontiacsafari.com/L1Early...nes/index.html
"1963. Derived from the 389 was a new 326-cid V-8 that arrived in the 1963 Tempest. It was a small-bore version of the bigger engine with a four-barrel carburetor and 260 hp. The 1963 326 engines used a 3.78-inch bore size for an actual 336 cubic inch displacement (same bore/stroke/displacement as the 1959 GMC engine, also a small bore version of the Pontiac 389-cid engine). In 1964 Pontiac reduced the bore size to what was correct for 326 inches of displacement, a 3.719-inch bore. Pontiac continued with Tri-Power options for both the 389 and the 421. Two 421 HO. V-8s produced 353 and 370 hp, respectively, but the hottest options of all were the 390-, 405-, and 410- hp 421 Super-Duty choices. These featured up to 13.0:1 compression and came with a single four- barrel, three two-barrel, or dual four-barrel carburetors. They were intended strictly for racing and to make Pontiac the competition king."

another interesting article was actually the GMC engine again from wikipedia
"336
GMC's own V8 was the 336-cubic-inch (5.5 L) OHV/pushrod engine. It used a 3.875 in (98.4 mm) bore and was produced only in 1958 and 1959.

While both the '58 and '59 GMC V8 engines were advertised as 336-cubic-inch (5.5 L), the '58 version was based on the Pontiac 370-cubic-inch (6.1 L), but with a smaller 3.875-inch bore giving 336.1 cubic inches (5,508 cc). The '59 version was based on Pontiac's 389-cubic-inch (6.4 L), but with a smaller 3.78-inch bore giving 336.9 cubic inches (5,521 cc)."

Its not a stretch to most peoples imagination to think that Pontiac took the engine and installed it in a car... Just like Chevy did... The engineering & tooling was done, just make it & install it.

John

TimeTraveller

I'm kinda surprised that no-one has seen this. Attached is a page from a Car & Driver special edition with a review of the 92 T/A vert. (found on this site). It states that Pontiac saw what was going on with the Camaro's leaky roof and apparently waited until it was fixed before having ASC do one for Pontiac.


TT

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Pontiac DID have a motor 4 the Trans Am series. It was a 303.
It was supposed to be used in the 69 Trans Am street car but it got killed. Supposedly it made some real silly power up high but was a dog down low and they didnt want a bunch of warranty claims with a high reving motor. I have heard a few made it out the door (as in the parts) but none 4 legit over the counter customers.

Bill Speed

Second class Citizen at GM (upper brass) but in terms of best GM cars, Pontiac has a legacy it can be proud of. I think designing passable safety likely different somewhat among the two, as the safety was a big factor and Firebird is a different body, but that the powerplant issue was something of a factor as well, that being mine was a Formula 350 in a convertible ASC car which was deemed too much power for the convertible. I've enjoyed mine year in and year out..and it certainly shows, but the only issue for me has been the environment rather then anything related to it's components

okfoz

I think ultimately GM looked at the Firebird and thought (correctly) that the Camaro was going to be a higher volume offering from the get-go. Since they always sold more Camaros than Firebirds. Ultimately there would be more Camaros made therefore the tooling costs would have been paid off quicker and they would be cheaper to produce. If demand was high enough they would introduce the Firebird.

in response to Time Traveler...

The fact is the article mentions the quality of the ASC conversion early on is feasible. However ASC introduced a new top for 1989, and it was more or less unchanged until 1992. There was the addition of the headliner in 1990, as was a new mount (from what I have been told) where they started using 3 bolts on each side instead of the 2 like the 1989. I have been told that Ultimately 1989's are a unique top, as it is not a direct replacement for either the 1986-1988 nor the 1990-1992. I want to think that the rest of the structure remained unchanged however. I would have to ask someone who knows more about convertibles, but that is what I have been led to believe.

Texas T/A

I think the last Pontiac engine was the 2.5 Iron duke which in its stock form was a joke. Super Duty was another story.