MMC

iTrader: (1)

Im looking at a 1987 IROC convertable and the 6th digit is a 2. Were all verts in 87 6th digit in the vin a 2 or what exactly is the deal here?

yankeecarman

iTrader: (9)

6th digit is supposed to be a 3 if a convertible and I think they only started in 89 listing the cars as convertible specific.

MMC

iTrader: (1)

Thanks i done some searching after i posted and found some info. Thanks again

scottmoyer

The cars that the factory ordered as convertibles will have a 3 in the VIN. A dealer ordered convertible or a customer vehicle will have a 2 in the VIN. For 1987, the 744 convertibles listed by Chevrolet are all VIN 3 coded. ASC, and others, did the aftermarket conversions, but only ASC did the factory conversions. The difference is that any coupe (VIN 2) could be sent to ASC as a customer car and get converted to a convertible. It just wouldn't be marked as a factory option.

slimwhitman

Don't leave us hangin! So is your car an ASC aftermarket convertible? Or was it converted by some other coach builder? What have yo learned?

okfoz

If you have a ASC conversion, the camaros were often numbered. There was number on the Right side of the dash...

slimwhitman

okfoz - What I am wondering.....this car could have been an early '87 ASC conversion completed before the "factory" versions were built (making it similar to the '86 ASC convertibles and the '87 Firebird convertibles). Does anyone know what month the factory authorized Camaro convertble became available? Usually they wait until Spring.

scottmoyer

No. That's how rumors get started. If the car has a 2 as the sixth digit, it's an aftermarket conversion. Like I stated earlier, ASC did the conversions for GM and they did the aftermarket, so it's very possible to have a factory looking aftermarket conversion. If it's a factory conversion, there will be a map pocket on the passenger side of the dash that says 20th anniversary. If it's aftermarket, there should a number plate on the passenger side of the dash designating it's limited edition number.

slimwhitman

[quote=scottmoyer;4812888]No. That's how rumors get started. If the car has a 2 as the sixth digit, it's an aftermarket conversion. quote]

I am not doubting that it is aftermarket. Just curious who built it. I have not seen an "aftermarket" ASC '87 Camaro convertible built yet, but it is possible that a few were built before the GM introduction in '87. ASC built plenty in '85 & '86. I guess we need MMC to let us know what he found out. Who converted it?

It would be safe to assume that no "aftermarket" ASC Camaros were once the "factory" ASC Camaros were introduced. What would be the point? ASC was known not to convert customer cars, only new cars for GM dealerships.

MMC.....are you out there?

okfoz

I am a tending to lean a bit with slim on this one, I would think that once the production of the official cars began that no more dealer ordered cars would have been accepted... I have heard of a 1988 ASC conversion Camaro, but i have nothing to back it up so I would assume that at this point its bogus. With that said, there may have been some Dealer conversions done after the onset of the regular Production to fulfill the dealer orders. I would assume that is why there was no 1990 Firebird convertibles as not to have an overlap into the regular production...

Slim, there was something like 200 ASC converted Camaros in 1987

it still beggs to answer the question... If the same facility converts cars for GM and for dealer converted aftermarket, then what would be the big deal over a number in the VIN?

The title and the registration of my 89 actually states "Convertible" on it... even though I never told the MI secretary of State (our equivalent of the DMV) that it was a convertible. I do not remember it being on the NC title, but it may have been.

John

I'llrocya

I have seen a 1987 Iroc-z ASC Convertible with the Special Edition #0259 emblem on the passenger side. The car also has a 2 as the 6th digit. I wonder how many of those were made? At least 259 for sure. Does anyone know if these are included in the 1007 made, 2 and 3 VIN both?

okfoz

I do not know what the production numbers included... ASC made from 85-87 for dealer conversions, those cars were numbered. Note that the Firebirds were not numbered as far as I have ever seen, my 89 is not numbered.

On the one hand Dealer information gathered from GM shows only 744 Camaros made in 1987, ASC states another number and the White book has a third number.

Then ASC claims a certain number of cars made in 1986, but there is an 86 out there with a higher number than what ASC states was produced, so did they include 1985's, and not restart at 1 every year???

It is all conjecture at this point and I do not think we will ever know... unfortunately.

John

I'llrocya

Do you think an ASC converted 87 convertible IROC Camaro with a 2 in the VIN are as collectible as others with a 3 in the VIN? Cause I'm going to look at one today, its a numbered one done by ASC. It says Special edition then a sequence number. Also there is a small ASC logo near the cig lighter as I can see from a photo.

slimwhitman

I think it is just as collectible. Please do us a favor! Take a few photos of the car. And take a photo of the numbered dash plaque, the ASC conversion sticker in the door jamb and the VIN plate that shows the GM build date (or let us know the GM build date). It would be interesting to know if it is an early '87 car that was built before GM released the "factory" '87 convertibles. I think it would be a more interesting car than a "factory convertible", but I like my cars a little off-beat.

I look forward to your reply. I have been researching this stuff and this car may unlock a few secrets for me.

scottmoyer

The 1007 cars produced in 1987 were all factory coded with a 3 in the VIN. It included the 744 Z28s and the 263 Sport Coupes. The 2 VIN'd cars will not be respected or demand the premium that the 3 Vin'd cars will because the 2 VIN is considered aftermarket and not a factory based convertible. Even though the same company provided the modification, it will not have the Z08 RPO code or the correct VIN. Purists will consider it a modified car. Very similar to ASC doing a convertible on a Monte Carlo or an S10.

Andre#4

I think the last "factory based" gm convertible was made in 1976. After that, they were coachbuilt conversions. Either sanctioned by gm or not.

It is not always true that it is worth less without a factory rpo.

Even the "non rpo" asc convetibles cars were authorized by gm and serviced at gm dealers under warranty. The parts had gm part numbers and were listed in gm parts manuals. Some of these parts even had the 8 digit gm part numbers cast into them, which means that gm was consulted and approved the numbers even before the parts were made.
Most coachbuilt conversions are not associated with gm in this way. (Most are not serviced/warranted by gm, nor are their parts supplied and cataloged by gm.)

Offhand, I can think of an example of a gm car that was made both with and without rpo's from gm, for which there is no added value for the rpo. Witness the 1991-1992 pontiac firehawks. Some have the proper B4U rpo, some do not. All are converted by the same subcontractor. In this case SLP. There is no premium paid for the car with rpo. Two identical cars sell for about $50,000 regardless.

Your example of the camaro convertibles is an interesting one. You may be proven right, but I would not say it is set in stone, or that the odds are any more than 50/50 that it would go your way. Not only because the asc cars were authorized and supported by gm, but also because there are some unauthorized cars, done totally off the reservation, that have tremendous value. (cars like the yenko camaros). Now, maybe these two types of cars would have value to two different types of people. But I think even the factory oriented people have sufficient reason to love asc convertibles.

With the firebirds, the situation is further slanted towards my view, because you must have a "non rpo" car in order to have any of these important things:

1.) the desirable 87-90 bodystyle (without fragile, afterthought, rain gutter style body kit)
2.) the top line GTA,
3.) the top line 350 engine (badly needed since r6p is disallowed on rpo convertibles)
4.) the desirable Formula model
5.) the important r6p performance enhancement group
6.) 4 wheel disc brakes (not 100% sure about this one)
7.) the b20 deluxe interior with molded door panels
8.) a real spoiler that stands proud of the trunklid, rather than the lip spoiler of the newer ones
9.) any of the special options that were phased out of firebirds by the time the rpo ragtop finally came out: like red interiors, blaupunkt subwoofer stereos, digital guages, power seats, color keyed steering wheels and lower dashboard, redundant steering wheel controls on the steering wheel, and other convenience items that were done away with in the interest of the almighty dollar.*

*This cheapening hit the firebirds worse than it hit the camaros. In firebirds, red interiors were only available until 1988. In basic firebirds, leather was only available until 1986. Camaros could have leather interiors, and red interiors until the end.

It seems to me, that some of the most valuable muscle cars are the ones made possible by subcontractors and conversion companies.

yenko camaros
nickey camaros
shelby mustangs
Mr Norm's mopars
gmc typhoon, and syclone, Converted by PAS, Inc
Buick GNX, converted by ASC
1989 trans am pace car - Converted by PAS, inc

All of the above are generally worth more than factory standard versions.

I'llrocya

Ok, so I definitely have some more info regarding the 87 ASC IROC convertible. It's an early 87, the build date is 9/86. I saw an invoice with the car that states shipped from ASC to a Chevy dealer. Does this mean these cars were built before VIN 3 cars? Also this sounds sort of factory to me, although again this car has a 2 in the VIN. The # is 0259. Also it looks like there was once an ASC sticker on the drivers door, however it is mostly gone. This car has the instruction booklet for convertible tops from ASC, sold with the car. I do have some pictures that I'll post shortly. I hope this helps a little.

I'llrocya

Ok, so I definitely have some more info regarding the 87 ASC IROC convertible. It's an early 87, the build date is 9/86. I saw an invoice with the car that states shipped from ASC to a Chevy dealer. Does this mean these cars were built before VIN 3 cars? Also this sounds sort of factory to me, although again this car has a 2 in the VIN. The # is 0259. Also it looks like there was once an ASC sticker on the drivers door, however it is mostly gone. This car has the instruction booklet for convertible tops from ASC, sold with the car. I do have some pictures that I'll post shortly. I hope this helps a little.

I'llrocya

Even if the conversion was done in 9/86 and there's paperwork stating that the vehicle was shipped from ASC to the dealership? I gotta think its not similar to a Monte or a S-10, I think it's more similar to a 87 IROC Convertible with a 3 in the VIN, in fact very close to, I hear ya though. There is a difference for sure but in this particular case, it just doesn't seem to be that big of a deal. If it was done by a company other then ASC or on an 86 or below I would definitely see more of your point. Thanks.

90FirebirdTA

ok i don't, wanna start a new thread since this is a question about vin#'s so..i have a 1990 firebird..and to my knowledge it was originally a 191 3.1L but was swapped to the 350 TPI(previous owner) but by the VIN its listed as the 305? anybody know anything of this?

scottmoyer

To address some of your comments...

Yes, the aftermarket 1987+ cars will have GM part numbers on them, not because GM authorized the aftermarket conversion and worked with ASC to "permit" it, but because ASC did the factory conversions for GM. It would be a waste to get get factory authorized parts for a factory conversion and a second set of non factory parts for the aftermarket conversion.

You are also misstating the the value of the cars listed in your post. Those cars have a higher value put on them, not because of an appearance option, but because they improved on the factory performance. Every single car you listed had a performance mod done.

The value in factory vs. aftermarket will always lean higher on the factory side. C&C provided an aftermarket TTop conversion, but people looking for TTop cars are looking for factory CC1. If I was looking to buy an 87 Camaro convertible, I would be looking for Z08 and a VIN 3. That's just the facts of how it has been with values.

I'llrocya

Andre#4 Makes an excellent point regarding subcontractors and conversion companies. I really don't think anyone can argue with that, excellent point. I really didn't even think of that, Yenko Camaros ect. Here's my personal situation, I've always leaned towards more original cars my whole life, that's mostly what I've owned over the years. Not just F-Bodies but Chevelles SS and others as well. I just happened to be looking at a 87 Iroc Conv. ASC car to enjoy for awhile with a 2 in its vin. It seems to me that this one is just as collectible as any, just slightly different.

slimwhitman

Here is another '87 Camaro convertible that appears to have been converted before the "official" convertibles came out.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...SS%3AUS%3A1123

scottmoyer

Just to clear something up here. The special editions were not produced before the "official" convertibles came out. They were made at the same time, but were not factory ordered. They were dealer ordered or owner ordered. ASC created the special edition models so that there was a distinction between aftermarket conversion and factory conversion. Anytime a manufacturer produces a product for a company, they are either restricted from selling that product to the general public for a certain time frame or they are required to change the product slightly so that it isn't identical.

cdocmavrick

I WANT TO THANK YOU MEN , I WAS WONDERING WHY MY 89 IROC VERT HAD SO MANY
PEOPLE WANTING TO BUY THIS VEHICLE WHEN I NEVER HAD IT FOR SALE . NOW THE SECRET IS REVEALED IN THIS THREAD , THANK YOU AGAIN ! THE KNOWLEDGE ON THE WEBSITE I VALUE EVEN MORE SO .

slimwhitman

If this is true....have you ever seen a "special edition" 1988 or 1989 Camaro ASC convertible?

scottmoyer

That's not what I'm saying. So in this case, GM probably allowed ASC to continue building cars that they planned on building prior to the contract, but it didn't allow them to build after the 1987 model year. This doesn't mean that the special editions were all created prior to the GM editions.

Can you prove that all special editions were created prior to the "official" convertibles. If that's how it happened, then I'd like to know it for future reference.

slimwhitman

I am working on that. I am collecting data on these cars and hope to be able to make assumptions based on build dates and conversion dates. You spoke above like your KNEW something, but it sounds like you are only speculating. Fair enough.

I'llrocya

I've never a special edition 88 or 89, don't think they made them to my knowledge.

I'llrocya

It's cool to see these, the listing says it's one of 1007. I think the listing is referring to anniversary cars, I don't think anyone knows how many SE's were made.

slimwhitman

Here is another Special Edition:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...TQ:MOTORS:1123

Seller tells me the Special Edition number is: #0367. GM build date is 11/86. I continue to believe that these non-factory ASC convertibles stopped as soon as the factory convertibles started. Anyone seen a number higher than #0367? Anyone know the month GM released the "factory" Camaro convertible?...Winter or Spring 1987?

Coupe Guy

I believe a dealer or a individual going through a dealer could have a car converted by ASC after 1987. Dealer/Individual ordered cars would have a 2 in the VIN. Factory convertibles had a 3 in the VIN. Both cars were converted by ASC and should use the same parts for conversion. I agree with Scott on this one!

slimwhitman

Alright then...... somebody hunt down an '88 or '89 Camaro convertible with a "2" as the 6th digit....or it never happened. I will be on the lookout as well. I have no dogs in this fight, but would like to know. Seems odd to me that someone (or a dealer) would go thru the hassle of ordering direct from ASC when they could more simply check off the convertible box on the standard GM order form. Then there is the question if GM would even contractually allow ASC to do that.

scottmoyer

About ten years ago, Willie inspected a VIN 2 1988 L98 IROC-Z convertible. The owner believed the car to be factory. The car did not have the dash plaque like the 87s did, but was still an aftermarket conversion from ASC.

For those wondering, Willie used to be the moderator of this forum and has a rarely optioned 1987 Z28 convertible, so he focused a lot of time on convertible knowledge.

okfoz

I would love to have gotten the VIN for that car... I keep track of the conversions.

neilcase

I am currently considering the purchase of a 1988 IROC-Z that was converted by ASC (according to the current owner). I have not seen nor verified this yet. What's most interesting is that this car has a 5.7 motor and 700R. Has anybody else come across one of these? Who other than ASC might have converted this car? What's the very best way to confirm it was or was not ASC? And lastly, any idea of the value of this car? I've heard there were a few 1987 IROC's with 5.7 converted and they are highly sought after.

slimwhitman

Chances are excellent that it is an ASC....almost everyone else had given up by then. When you see the car, you will know by the top. If it has the common hard tonneau that covers the stowed top, then you know if it is an ASC. Let us know the 6th digit and that will confirm if it was a GM ordered ASC car or a dealer ordered ASC car (if those still existed in '88).

okfoz

1) Verify the VIN, especially the 8th digit look for the 1G1FS218?JL??????
2) ASC has the tonneau cover over the boot, which As far as I have ever seen was the only conversion to do so.
3) Look at the drivers door Jamb, there should be an ASC conversion sticker.

4) Be aware that it is not unheard of to take a wrecked convertible, the pieces and convert a T-top car... In reality it would not be very hard, just take a little time. I know of an 86 Trans Am that someone took a 91-92 Firebird Convertible and made their 86 into a vert.

Please share with us what you learn.

John

neilcase

Thanks All,

Turns out it is NOT 5.7. It's a 5.0 but the shifter **** is square? The full VIN verifies it's 5.0. The guy was unsure of the motor. But for some reason he did know it was a sixth digit 2 car. It does have a hard tonneau cover so I'm thinking it had to be an ASC aftermarket job. All it needs is a water pump and he wants $2250 for it. Seems like a good deal?

okfoz

It does not really matter, but make sure on the year. H for 1987 & J for 1988.

I have heard rumors that ASC did some aftermarket conversions for Camaros in 1988, but nothing verified. I thought once the Camaro convertible went into production in 1987 that they ceased all new orders, and probably continued the special orders until they were fulfilled.

John

neilcase

Wow! this is getting more and more interesting. It is now looking like this is indeed a 5.7 motor because the VIN indicates a 305 TBI and the car clearly has a TPI in it. So somebody did a swap? I'm OK with that cuz the car is cheap enough. But now I cant seem to verify if it was converted by ASC. Everything I read here states that ASC factory cars would have had a door jamb sticker. This car does not have a sticker anywhere, but then again we know it was not a factory order cuz the six digit is 2. If I am reading these posts correctly it seems that the aftermarket ASC jobs would have something like a sequence number on the dash somewhere. Can somebody help me to figure out how to determine if this was an ASC job? All visual indications lead us to believe it was ASC. But I'm not interested in the car unless I can verify that somehow.

I've decoded the VIN but here it is if anybody has anything to add. 1G1FP21E7JL114694. Looks like a very early sequence number (14,694)

Thanks

neilcase

Scott,

You can see my thread below. I am also now looking at a VIN 2 1988 convertible that "appears" to be done by ASC. But there is no door sticker or dash plaque about Special Edition. I see there are some 1987's with dash plaques and you say somebody named Willie has once seen a car like this one that I am looking at buying. Do you know how to contact Willie? Thanks

slimwhitman

To assist everyone:

slimwhitman

Stickers get removed or painted over all the time. Don't let that stop you.

neilcase

What do ya think? I think it sadly lost its potential collectors value due to engine swap?

neilcase

Gee Wiz. This car has some mystery to it. I have now talked to both the current owner who owns a body shop and the previous owner who knows nothing about cars. Both tell me that visually it looks like the original motor in this car. The VIN indicates 305 TBI but we can all see it is a TPI. Now the question is...... is it a 305 or 350. The current owner has no idea and he cant (or it's too difficult) locate the block castings.

Anybody tell me any tips to visually determining the difference between a 305 TPI and a 350 TPI for 1988 without locating casting numbers? Thanks.

okfoz

Then the car originally came with the TBI 305


you can remove the AC unit, and look at the block stamping. If it is not very readable, which is not uncommon, There are several ways to read the numbers. The easiest way would be to take some sand paper, about 800 or so and lightly sand the rust off , wipe it off and it should reveal the numbers.

Idea 2... take a piece of paper and pencil and see if you can get the numbers to transfer.

John

neilcase

Thanks John and everybody else for all your help. I knew the car came with a 305 TBI but that is definitely NOT what is in there now. Thus the reason and need to determine what is in there. I am 2000 miles away and trying to figure out exactly what this car is. If I were there I could easily do it myself but the current owner is a little reluctant to do this much work. I was hoping somebody knew a quick visual trick to indentifying a 305 vs 350 but it doesnt look like that is as easy as it sounds. I am slowly working my way backwards towards the original owner. The current owner is number 5. I am almost in touch with the 2nd owner now and if I can get in touch with him maybe he can put me in touch with the first owner. This is going to be interesting.

I will for sure keep you all posted. We all love an interesting story!

NY87Iroc

iTrader: (1)

I have #0369

slimwhitman

And might I ask what the date of production is on your car? Look at the sticker in the door opening for that date. Thanks!