banksGTA

iTrader: (3)

I have an 87 GTA 350 tpi an i was wondering what is some of the after market efi everyone are using? I was wondering if these adapt to any mods you do to the engine? Also, do these bolt right up and allow me to use factory gauges, nitrous, and msd? I've got a stroker ready to drop in but since no one does proms anymore around here, jus LS stuff i was wanting something that either tunes its self or can be tuned using modern equipment. Thanks for all the help.

U.S. Navy
Godspeed

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The factory gauges aren't affected by the stock ECM, so no need to worry about them if the ECM is removed.

RBob.

banksGTA

iTrader: (3)

Thanks thats one problem/question answered.

QUICKCHICKEN

iTrader: (12)

Bank, you have PM.

1ADan

iTrader: (4)

there is a pretty good thread going in the tpi section on how to adapt the lsx system to sbc setups. readily available parts AND it fits the bill for your local tuning guys

xch3no2

Actually there were two answers in RBob's post, one not so obvious because RBob is a true gentleman, follow the link.

http://www.dynamicefi.com/

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Bingo, Bob has already done all of the work for everybody and simplified it. Not only that, but I can't believe I come across members that are still burning chips too, because EBL does it all. Still patiently waiting for the SFI-6 to come out, that's going to be incredible...

QUICKCHICKEN

iTrader: (12)

it still req a laptop and the understanding of tuning, the EZ system and Holley systems tune themselves.

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

But the EZ won't do spark or any power adders. Plus there are other options, Accel offers an easy Nitrous table, just enter the bottle pressure and pill size and it does the fuel map for you. What is the intended use of the car?

QUICKCHICKEN

iTrader: (12)

AGAIN, the EZ is a cost efective system for those that arent going to run adders and want a low hassle EFI system to run their car. if it were to run power adders and control spark it would cost more because of engineering cost. it would cost as much as the other systems with these options.

if i were in the market to get away from chips and had no plan of adders, what would you choose $9xx for the EZ or $2000 for one of the other systems.

banksGTA

iTrader: (3)

Its a street car threw the week and race on the weekends. The nitrous is jus a throttle body plate system, 125hp shot.

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

Dude, he has nitrous. Last time I checked that was regarded as a power adder. Read the post. That's why I mentioned what I did.

Why don't you let him decide if he wants 1 box to control just about everything, fans, nitrous, multiple fuel and spark maps, and maybe even some datalogging for the track. Of course it costs more, it does twice as much! Christ!

ZZ3 Z28

MSD has gotten into the mix with the AtomicEFI system. Thier set up looks pretty simplified.

QUICKCHICKEN

iTrader: (12)

i wasnt referring to the power adder part, i was inferring the spark part. and yes, if hes going to run an adder by all means go for something besides the EZ.

xch3no2

You really don't know what you are talking about.

The EBL learns VE as the others do.

QUICKCHICKEN

iTrader: (12)

i didnt say what it did or didnt learn, i said it still reqs a laptop and understanding tuning,"knowing what your looking at"

What Else is Required:
•A BIN editor (such as WinBIN or TunerPro)
•Laptop for data logging, minimum requirements

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

Most systems offer help screens, they can help tremendously in simplifying the tuning process, but yes some are better than others.

But to set the record straight, most, I say most aftermarket systems use pretty much the same capacity boards. They only have so much room in them for management.

Accel doesn't have enough room left to add "self learning", it's that simple, but their fuel overlay program makes tuning a pretty simple task. Ultimately they've choosen to keep and develope calibrations that help drivability, easy nitrous tables and offer a true VE system. I'll explain that in a minute.

BS3 has more datalogging ability than just about anybody in their class, but roughly half the available calibrations that effect drivability etc.

FAST now has "self learning" and has traction control as well as some other stuff, but again fewer transient fueling/aceleration fueling tables etc.

Holley? Avenger and HP have "self learning" and larger fuel and spark tables but again less drivability cals as well as imo less friendly nitrous etc.

And on all speed density systems, unless it takes into account, TPS, MAP, O2, ECT, MST, IAT and can calculate the effect on the incoming air of the ECT, IAT and MST combined they're not a true VE based system, they're pulse width, plain and simple.

Dominic Sorresso

I don't know how you can get better engine management than GM code itself which is what EBL is based on. For single purpose cars ie race, perhaps some of the others but for a driver and all around, EBL has a tremendous level of flexibility and capability particularly at its price point. I keep begging
RBob to do the LT-5 version.

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

That's a great point. Most don't understand that the language of the ECM helps with the time it takes to respond to the programmed cal.

banksGTA

iTrader: (3)

How are the holley 950's? thanks

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

One word, junk. Unless you get one for next to nothing they aren't worth it imo.
I have dyno sheets on a 300hp 350 with an HSR and a 950. Then they used the same intake and only changed the electronics to a sequential Accel. Peak hp was about the same with the Accel making 4 or 5 more. But the midrange was a different story, 25-30lb ft of torque difference. And that's right where you drive it.

banksGTA

iTrader: (3)

I try my best to do as much reading and research as possible but the Navy keeps me pretty busy but if i understand correctly, the EBL is partially a self tuning system? I am trying to learn about tuning and i understand the basics but with all the info on here and with everyone willing to help im pretty sure i can tackle the EBL tuning if thats what the perfered system is? Thanks for all the help.
U.S. Navy

banksGTA

iTrader: (3)

So, is the EBL prettyy much the same as the new holley hp or the fast systems?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Not really, lots of differences. The new self-tuning systems require a full time WB set up. And many of them are fueling only. Still need a mechanical distributor set up. In which using one the tuner/ECM system loses a lot of capability.

The EBL systems have the sensor diagnostics that GM is known for. They also support drive-ability more so then the self tuning, install and forget systems.

And also support the stock smog equipment (closed loop for the cat-con, EGR, CCP, and AIR (EBL P4 only for AIR)). Has support for controlling the A/C compressor and electric fan same as stock.

For an '87 TPI set up the EBL Flash ECM with the Port Mod is the easiest to install. The ECM is the same fit (form factor) as the stock one and only requires a few ECM harness connector terminals/wires moved. Using the MAF wires to wire a MAP sensor to the ECM and it is nearly plug & play.

The MAF may stay in place but won't be used.

Note that the EBL Flash ECM won't run the AIR system. If that is required the EBL P4 Flash ECM will run it. Along with having dual electric fan control. Only downside is that most of the ECM harness connector terminals/wires need to be moved. However, this only needs to be done once.

As for self tuning the EBL Flash systems will self learn the VE tables. Can use either the long term fuel trim in closed loop or a WB set up in open loop for this. The WB also being able to learn at WOT.

Once the VE Learns are complete the WB may be removed.

The EBL Flash ECMs also has a wet N2O control built in. RPM window, minimum MPH, TPS% threshold to engage, and an arming input. An output goes active to trigger the solenoid relays and reduces the SA.

As with the other calibration parameters these to can be set by the user.

The ALDL link and SES light are still active.

RBob.

banksGTA

iTrader: (3)

EGR, Smog, and A/C have been deleted but it does have the dual fans. From what i read all you need to tune the EBL is a laptop?

Dominic Sorresso

RBob,

When is the EBL/Flash LT-5 version available? Puulllleeezzzzeee!!!

banksGTA

iTrader: (3)

Are the EBL systems as reliable as the other systems out there, i want something that i could possibly tune myself but if i took it to get dynoed the shop could tune it also. thanks

Dominic Sorresso

EBL utilizes GM code and a GM ECM as its base. There ain't anything more reliable.

banksGTA

iTrader: (3)

So would the EBL be my best choice? The accel systems was mentioned in the earlier posts, how are they as far as learning to tune i see them quite a bit used on here and ebay. Taxes are almost in and i wanted to get a new system before i get transfered to Cali but wanted to be sure i get the right one for myself. I really appreciate all the help and advice everyone is giving, its sometimes hard to reply back the same day as the military keeps me busy, thanks again for all the help.

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

It depends on your ultimate goals.
Imo the Accel is very easy to tune, just press F1 on any screen you're on and a help screen comes up and it can be tailored to almost any application.
I would suggest downloading the software and looking at it from there, that'll tell you a lot.

banksGTA

iTrader: (3)

Which accel would you reccomend and its mainly jus going to be a street racer to be honest.

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

Accel Thruster #77010W. That comes with ECM, harness, sensors and a base map.
Pm'd you as well.

formula350sd

iTrader: (2)

If you're seriously considering an aftermarket system you should look at Haltech's Sport GM.

It's specifically made for austrailian cars that run a slightly different version of your factory ECM and thus it's basically plug and play.

banksGTA

iTrader: (3)

All the reserach ive done on all the systems, they all replace my maf with a map sensor correct?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

As far as I know, yes. There is one EFI system out there that is MAF. But it uses a Ford MAF sensor placed in the TB (4-hole carb flange TB).

RBob.

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

X2 and it uses a 20 year old ECM.

EagleMark

Yes!

Do you have to register your car in Cali and pass their emmisons tests? Any mod has to have a CARB number and still pass emmision tests. Even if it passes tests emmision tests it could fail for changing a part to one without CARB number. It has been a few years since I had to deal with that but was not fun, hassle after hassle, and hassle would change when inspector changed... passed for this on one inspector, then failed with this on another inspector, back and forth... glad I don't live there anymore...

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

I am as to why MegaSquirt was not mentioned once here. I have run the first two editions and have been happy with them. I'll be ordering MSIII soon and the connector/adapter from diyefi and it just plugs into the stock harness. It's not self learning, but you can use this for ANY fuel injected engine. MSIII will even put datalogs on a sd card, no laptop required. Why is there no love here???

banksGTA

iTrader: (3)

I havnt read up on the Megasquirt yet.

WASyL

I did chip burning at the begining then i started Megasquirt + adaptor board for TPI + TuneStudioMS (with full licence) + WBO2 does selftune if You give starting point map on VE. I run this setup and i'm more then happy with it. And please do remember: even if any of mentioned here does selftune You still have to control what it do and check it every once awhile, AFR gauge is a good idea too. Selftune is just a help for quicker tune not to do all the job!

Best regards

89_RS

MSD's Atomic EFI looks like it match RBobs system. Fuel & Spark timing up to 600hp plus fan & A/C controls (covers everything I want). Been reading up on the MSD system and they really break it down simple for you. The big draw back to the MSD system over the EBL is that the entire system in integrated into the Throttle Body and no emissions controls. Great for packaging, but a horror to work on if anything in the system goes out.

utilityguy2

iTrader: (1)

http://www.dynamicefi.com/ is the answer! Period.

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

The easiest, clip in ecm/efi for a 3'rd gen may be the EBL, but have you looked at the capabilities and features of MegaSquirt 3? I can datalog via blutooth to my phone or onto an SD card. Don't even need a laptop. I can't say anything bad about the EBL as I have never used it, but I plan on trying the EBL if I can sell my Moates chip burning and emulator setup.

EagleMark

Then what?

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

Load it onto my laptop of course. It's just an added convenience, not having to lug a laptop around once the settings are close.

EagleMark

Cool!

Still end up needing a computer though... would be way cool to upload a tune via bluetooth!

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

I'm told you need another box to do spark, they forget to tell you that.

89_RS

They sure don't. Unlike any other EFI system out there, they spell it out in GIANT BOLD LETTERS and COLOR SCHEMATICS in the standard product literature what you need to do ECM controlled timing with the Atomic EFI system:

A distributor with a magnetic trigger and the advances locked out such as the MSD 80551
An ignition box such as the MSD 6AL

Pricy, yes. Easy as pie to do, heck yes. Best of all, no laptop. Just use the handheld as needed.

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

Go to the FAQ on their website, here's what you'll find;

Yes it will do spark, my bad, but it's limited and doesn't allow for temp changes, keeps the same timing amount no matter what, that's a huge disadvantage, especially on larger cammed applications.
You gotta send in the unit if the MAP, IAC or regulator goes out? How inconvenient is that?
It won't automaticlaly change for altitudes if it's not in a certain load and rpm range, you have to cycle the key, TRY THAT WHILE DRIVING DOWN A MOUNTAIN!
No laptop, for some that's a plus. But it also means less tables/less tunability, period.
Can't change injector size - for a smaller/less hp motor that would be beneficial, always use the smallest injector you can with the most pressure, it'll drive better, can't do that on this unit.

Do you want me to go on?
Why not spend another $300.00 and get something that does everything listed above and more.

Jmo.

89_RS

Reread their FAQ. It states that it can do startup trims based on temp. This covers everyone's needs just fine. It also states in there user manual that this system won't work with engines that have cam durations of 250 or more. They ain't hidding nothing here. If you need a bigger cam, get a different system.

If you have a DD with this system and no backup means of transportation, its a pretty damn big problem. If you buy it for your get in and go fun car, its no problem at all.

50% throttle between 1200 & 3000rpm is the change area. I take it you've not done much mountain driving before. Unless you're heading up a 20% grade or rise 1 mile in 5hrs driving out west, this isn't a problem.

The whole point of a self tuning EFI system is that you don't have to jack with tables. If you've ever helped develop self tuning EFI programs, you'd know that to get that level of interpolation out of the ECU, the tables are as large or larger than the tables you have on your laptop programmable ECU.

Injector size, like carburetor size, is of no concern in relation to engine power. I've tuned a 600cc CBR600 to run off of 4 55pph injectors running at 60psi @ 75% duty cycle and it made 90hp through a 20mm restrictor. Dave Vizard in How to Build SBC's on a budget tells you how to setup a 2400cfm carb to run just hunky dory on a stock 70's 350. Just have to know what you're application is and what you are doing.

Please do go on. I spent three years in college on FSAE building cars with junkyard & OTC autozone parts that would wipe the floor with any car on these boards in every conceivable race format imaginable except drag racing. And this system can handle anything you want. While MSD doesn't say it can handle power adders, a roots blower & N2O are easy to handle through a little fudging of the advance & lambda values. Blow through power adders still wouldn't work though.

After I wired my second engine harness, I decided that a plug & play system with minimal splicing was all I could stomach doing again. MSD spells it out clearly what this system can and cannot do and how it can be made to work for XYZ application. Amazing what a little reading will do for purchasing decisions.