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Question #1: I just ordered the innovate LC-1, and I have the ebl, was wondering if I can tune my AE with the WBo2?? My friend also just bought the LM-1, So I have access to that also. (using it on his blown silverado SS)
Question #2: Could I use a fuel pressure transducer from an autometer FP gauge to log my fuel pressure with the ebl? And if so, How would I set it up?
I've been playing with my AE for a few days now, and I think the VAFPR is allowing me to need less AE. But it is hard to tell where. I was just stabbing the gas and looking at the INT and seeing it drop to like 105, so I kept giving it less AE in the table till when I stapped the gas, it droped to like 118 briefly, then goes to like 130( INT). It seems to like that better. Does this sound like a reasonable way to do this? (I know, give it what it wants)
__________________ A.S.E. Certified master mechanic Land Of The Free, Because Of The Brave http://www.cardomain.com/id/liquidh8 My rides: 81 Buick Century Wagon, 86 GN Turbo engine, 2004R, 3" DP, 3" Duals w/Magnaflows, CAI, Lots of porting, powdercoating, 18 lbs boost, more to come!! 79 Malibu Wagon-Vortec headed 350 w/tbi, 2004r, 2800 stall, n2o, 4 wheel discs, pro-touring suspension, killer PPI, J/L audio system 64 Chevelle Convertable SS-not done 302, w/muncie
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Using a WB to tune the AE works out great. The WB response time and ability to show the actual AFR makes AE tuning easy (along with the EBL data).
Connect the WB and select the channel and which WB in the preferences dialog. Then data log a session. Can even hit and hold the thottle to various levels to gather the data. Use the WUD analysis screen and create a dump file.
In the dump file the last series of columns show the delta TPS & MAP along with the AE fuel for each. Then the final amount of AE fuel. The deltas show what row of the table to adjust, and the WB shows how much to adjust it by.
Looks like the Autometer fuel pressure transducer is an easy fit. I've found that it is a 0-5 volt output, and the transducer is available separately. What I'll do is to add it to the WUD as another input option (such as the WB). Do you have the transducer yet? I'm thinking time frame to make the change.
RBob, I don't have one yet. I wasn't 100% positive if it would do. But I think I an going to get it though, the kit with the gauge. And then I could just splice a wire out to go to the EBL so I can log the Fuel pressure. Give me some time to pick one up. If you were going to intergrate a feature into the WUD that would be cool. Lemme know when you do it. This way I can get an update.
I had been thinking back when the EBL was under development if the fuel pressure logging was going to be possible. I have a Nordskog unit that would work with this I hope. It was cheaper than the Autometer products at the time of purchase even though all my other guages are Autometer.
After a while, of using a WB you'll get an *eye* for what the engine likes...
For instance, on my GN with the new ignition system, I can dip into the 15s on throttle snaps at low RPM, and the engine is perfectly happy, yet starting at about 3,000 RPM, which is above the stall speed of the converter I need to see a *flicker* that just touchs ~10:1, and a full stomp for idle needs to see 10:1 for a couple seconds. With the stock DIS, and then CD enhanced it needed the 10:1 most all the time.
The general plan is to implement a method of allowing nearly any device to be data logged. This way a user can connect a device, enter a device name, nomenclature, and scaling. And have this data available to them.
As for fuel pressure, this is one item that is as important as, or more so, then data logging WB data. I know it has saved me time. And I recall another time where we didn't have it and went around in circles for many hours.
If someone has one now and would like to log it, I can toss some code in place. This would be to try out how it works and go from there. I have the scaling data for the 100 psi Autometer transducer (which can be had for ~$105US). Don't have it for the Nordskog.
I may try and borrow my buddies of off his silverado SS, just to try it and see if it will work. If that is the case, RBob, should I let you know and you shoot me the code so I can datalog it?? Thanx. No serious rush, just trying to get everything together so I can drive and not have to worry about the tune. Besides, I haven't had it ready so I can try the n2o yet.
I may try and borrow my buddies of off his silverado SS, just to try it and see if it will work. If that is the case, RBob, should I let you know and you shoot me the code so I can datalog it?? Thanx. No serious rush, just trying to get everything together so I can drive and not have to worry about the tune. Besides, I haven't had it ready so I can try the n2o yet.
Yes, let me know. Also, with the fuel delivery issues I've seen, it would be best to make sure there isn't a problem stock before using the funny gas.
ok. I'll be talking to him this weekend and I'll see if I can borrow it. If not, in a week or so I'll just buy one. Since you are going to implement it into the WUD. I wanna run a gauge anyway too.
I am going to try this out tomorrow. One question though, should I get the ve close before I mess with the AE?? I hooked up the WB to use it for the VE learn. I can say the VE table are nowhere near smooth like the stock tables. I guess the VAFPR has some say in that?
The VE affects the AE and the AE affects the VE. So it will be a combination of working with the two of them together.
For the BPC vs. VAC table, are the values set up for the fuel pressure change? If you'd like I can post or PM the proper values. All I need is the max (no vacuum) fuel pressure and the injector flow rate, and the pressure for that rating.
I am going to try this out tomorrow. One question though, should I get the ve close before I mess with the AE?? I hooked up the WB to use it for the VE learn. I can say the VE table are nowhere near smooth like the stock tables. I guess the VAFPR has some say in that?
Like RBob said they work together.
Working with an Auto, then below the stall speed of the converter can be kind of tricky, *to get*. Not to mention if you've freed up the intake tract. Reducing pre throttle body plumbing, can really hose the oem AE, add even a slightly looser converter, and you might have to run the VE area at low RPM, and high load kind of rich to get the car to be responsive. It also makes the balance between TPS and MAP AE a bit more challenging.
Yes, a vacuum referenced FPR makes for needing less AE, and cleans up Deccleraton enleanment, ALLOT.
rbob, is that right??, Seems like it is going backwards. I though the BPC had to be higher because the FP is lower at the lower KPA's where there is more vacuum?? Just wanted to be sure I am on the right path. Thank you for posting those too. You are the man!!
rbob, is that right??, Seems like it is going backwards. I though the BPC had to be higher because the FP is lower at the lower KPA's where there is more vacuum?? Just wanted to be sure I am on the right path. Thank you for posting those too. You are the man!!
The greater the vacuum the lower the fuel pressure. It is the opposite of MAP, or manifold pressure. So the BPC goes up as the manifold vacuum increases and the fuel pressure/injector delivery drops.
Tell ya what, Thank you. I inputted those value in there, this way it is scaling up/down right. But... after I did that I maxed out a bunch of the VE cells in the high speed VE table. Since my injectors aren't 100 dc yet, I could just raise the BPC vs VAC table numbers to get more fuel right??
Another thing I am having issues with, I seem to be getting know counts right around 4200 - 4400 rpm, no matter what the timing, I had the timing tables in the 80 to 100 kpa areas as low as 17, all the way up to 24, with 0 and 3 degree PE SA in those rpm areas. I tihnk it is pulling spark out from those areas. When I am full tilt, it pulls hard then lets up at the higher rpm range, till I let out of the gas some and it starts pulling. It is very noticable in the seat of the pants. Any body have any ides??
Since my injectors aren't 100 dc yet, I could just raise the BPC vs VAC table numbers to get more fuel right??
Yes, it is best to keep the DC% at 85% max. You can try the 81#/hr column of values and see how that works out. I'll add a couple more columns of BPC values later today.
not quite, but they are close. It seems as though whatever I do I can't get rid of the count's They aren't bad, anywhere from 4 to 10, but it is always in the same area. Maybe I need more PE, the LM-1 says I am getting 13.2 AFR, when the commanded is 12.7 AFR, I tried making it richer in the commanded, but it doesn't seem to make a difference. Should I raise the attack rate percent, making the PE AFR come faster?? and the AFR enrich over time, cause that is only 1. That would mean I would only get 1 more point afr richer over 14.7 over the time I'm in PE right?? Meaning 13.7. If I make it 2 will I be able to get 12.7?
rbob, bty, why is the colum listed as kpa?? That is a map measurement right?? I guess I am getting thrown off somewhere here. I know that the fp RAISES as vacuum drops. BUy why does the column go all the way up to 80 kpa? Isn't that like 2 or 3 inches of vaccum? If so, shouldn't the bpc be lower? I'm an idiot, lol. Sorry for all the questions. I just want this thing to be right.
After years of using vacuum in inches of Hg, then getting used to MAP as manifold pressure, I too have trouble thinking in terms of MAP and KPa and vacuum. Sometimes it just hurts the brain. On that note. . .
To get the vacuum values in KPa, the current manifold pressure (MAP value) is subtracted from the barometric pressure (read at key on-engine off). The difference is the manifold vacuum.
Note that I use WOT as 0 vac and 100 KPa, this is for illustration purposes only. Even at WOT there can be a drop across various parts of the induction system.
At WOT the vacuum will be 0, this also gives the highest fuel pressure, and the lowest BPC. As the manifold vacuum increases (toward 80 KPa) the fuel pressure drops, and the BPC increases.
The standard MAP values go from 20 KPa through 100 KPa (WOT). The inverse of this is from 80 KPa through 0 KPa. If barometric is 100 KPa and the current MAP value is 60 KPa, then the manifold vacuum is 40 KPa.
100 - 60 = 40 KPa vacuum
If in Dever the barometric pressure is closer to 84 KPa. Then at WOT the MAP will be 84 KPa, which still gives a 0 KPa vacuum value. Both ends of the TBI injectors are open to the atmosphere, the above is why the BPC table is vacuum referenced.
Using a WB to tune the AE works out great. The WB response time and ability to show the actual AFR makes AE tuning easy (along with the EBL data).
Connect the WB and select the channel and which WB in the preferences dialog. Then data log a session. Can even hit and hold the thottle to various levels to gather the data. Use the WUD analysis screen and create a dump file.
In the dump file the last series of columns show the delta TPS & MAP along with the AE fuel for each. Then the final amount of AE fuel. The deltas show what row of the table to adjust, and the WB shows how much to adjust it by.
I'm not understanding the Delta row. how does the delta row correspond with the TPS & MAP row?? Like when I am @ 22%tps, the delta number would be 1.0, and all. Here is a snipit of my dump log. Can anybody explain this to me?? Uncle Sam has had me a bit stressed for the last 3 weeks, I think I have been having a serious of stupid attacks.
Thanx, so..., if i am running rich while that ae is active, I would lower the MAP ae. Also, in the ebl calibration doc it say for the AE-rpm multiplier % that "A value of 128 has no effect on the AE PW. A larger value increases the AE PW, a smaller value decrease the AE PW." But in my table from 2000 to 4800 rpm the value is 0 % for 4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18 x100 rpm the values are 15.63, 28.13, 43.75, 43.75, 43.75, 21.88, 15.63, 3.13 respectively. So these numbers are decreasing the AE PW in the lower rpm areas?? Or are they really just increase the AE PW by the % indicated, like @400rpm the AE-PW is being increase by 15.63%. Sorry for all the questions. Hopefully these q&a's will help other people.
Thanx, so..., if i am running rich while that ae is active, I would lower the MAP ae. Also, in the ebl calibration doc it say for the AE-rpm multiplier % that "A value of 128 has no effect on the AE PW. A larger value increases the AE PW, a smaller value decrease the AE PW." But in my table from 2000 to 4800 rpm the value is 0 % for 4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18 x100 rpm the values are 15.63, 28.13, 43.75, 43.75, 43.75, 21.88, 15.63, 3.13 respectively. So these numbers are decreasing the AE PW in the lower rpm areas?? Or are they really just increase the AE PW by the % indicated, like @400rpm the AE-PW is being increase by 15.63%. Sorry for all the questions. Hopefully these q&a's will help other people.
The cal document is in error. The ECU/XDF displays the values as the percentage change. With 0% being no change, then a positive number for increased AE and a negative number for decreased AE.
The cal doc is referring to the raw BIN values of 0-255. I'll change it to state that it is already the percent change.
