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I'm Going to get into the "black Magic" of Programming. Just got a laptop and I plan on getting all the equipment necessary. I have to do this because of a new engine combo going into my 89 iroc, Putting in a 383 stroker. I have been reading all that I can in the DIY sections and all the info can be alittle intimidating, My question is,is there some type of "virtual" engine programmer that I can practice"tuning" on so that I can learn about the changes that I make and what affect it would have on an engine before I get into my own engine,make a mistake and trash a brand new engine? Thanks!
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In a word, no. The best you can do is to create a "test bench" using the ECM and it's electrical components. And then monitor the effects of various changes to the eprom.
And even then, there are some things that can only be tested on a "real engine".
Thanks for the info. I thought it wouldn't be that easy. I'm starting to realize why everyone puts a carb on their mototrs and ditches the efi
The main reason people go to a carb is "low cost" to install and maintain - provided they don't have emissions testing to pass.
But, for overall driveability, fuel economy, emissions and performance throughout the rpm range, EFI wins hands down.
If you can tune a carb, you can quickly learn to tune EFI. The concepts are the same, just the method is different. The biggest problem I think people find in tuning EFI is the "tuning" part. If they haven't got a clue how to properly tune an engine, it doesn't matter if it's a carb or EFI, neither will run very well.
Last edited by Grim Reaper; 12-26-2006 at 01:22 AM.
Thanks for the info. I thought it wouldn't be that easy. I'm starting to realize why everyone puts a carb on their mototrs and ditches the efi
It's just easier to be lazy.
But, you'll see as time passes on how more and more people are switching to EFI. The NHRA, and NASCAR rules will even break into the 20th century some time.
I've been running ecm benches for almost a decade now, and IMO, there's nothing to equal them.
While some stick to a carb, it's only since they typically settle for the notion if the engine will eventually start, and sorta goes when you press on the gas they're happy. It's amazing when people talk about EFI that all they usually talk about is fueling, when that's just 1/2 the story. Timing isn't usually thought of.
Once you get to building some high HP, road FRIENDLY engines, there's no match to EFI.
.. It's amazing when people talk about EFI that all they usually talk about is fueling, when that's just 1/2 the story. Timing isn't usually thought of...
Yes. In fact, I think it's the controlling of the spark which NO mechanical distributor can come close that usually makes them realize they can do a lot more tuning and run more consistently than they ever thought.
And then there is still some other things you can tune for (electric fans, torque lock-up, and if it's a newer PCM, even the transmission). And never get dirt under your finger nails.
And, best of all, (with enough testing), you can tune the engine to operate optimally in ALL elevations, air temps, barometrics - and do it repetively.
It's just easier to be lazy.
...Once you get to building some high HP, road FRIENDLY engines, there's no match to EFI.
Once you do it, you'll realize there's just no substitute. Carb is optimized for a couple of operating parameters. EFI can optimize for all situations.
While some stick to a carb, it's only since they typically settle for the notion if the engine will eventually start, and sorta goes when you press on the gas they're happy. It's amazing when people talk about EFI that all they usually talk about is fueling, when that's just 1/2 the story. Timing isn't usually thought of.
Once you get to building some high HP, road FRIENDLY engines, there's no match to EFI.
What he said
I will never go back to a carb. TBI is even light years ahead of a carb.
Thanks guys for all the feedback. Like I said, all of the info I have been going through can get a little intimidating. One more question, these are the specs on the new combo that is going into the car:
383 forged assembly
flat tops
5.7 rods
AFR 195 Eliminators
Comp xfi 288
58mm tb
30# injectors
HSR
N/A but rings will be file fit for nos( to be added more sooner than later)
Will this setup be radically different from the stock 5.7 that's in the car now? Can I expect some real tuning issues or will it be "fairly" easy for a newbe tuner? Also kinda of a double post,what software do you guys recommend for a newbe tuner. Once again guys,thanks for all of your input.
Thanks guys for all the feedback. Like I said, all of the info I have been going through can get a little intimidating. One more question, these are the specs on the new combo that is going into the car:
383 forged assembly
flat tops
5.7 rods
AFR 195 Eliminators
Comp xfi 288
58mm tb
30# injectors
HSR
N/A but rings will be file fit for nos( to be added more sooner than later)
Will this setup be radically different from the stock 5.7 that's in the car now? Can I expect some real tuning issues or will it be "fairly" easy for a newbe tuner? Also kinda of a double post,what software do you guys recommend for a newbe tuner. Once again guys,thanks for all of your input.
I'm pretty new to this tuning stuff as well and know what you mean about it seeming intimidating. I messed around with my '7747 for a while before switching to EBL. I wish I'd started with EBL in the first place! It's self learn ability takes so much of the guess work out. You can just go for a drive in 'learn' and just keep updating the fueling really speeding up your tuning.
If you haven't read the 'tuning with EBL' thread I urge you to. For a novice like me it was certainly the easiest way to go.
Once you do it, you'll realize there's just no substitute. Carb is optimized for a couple of operating parameters. EFI can optimize for all situations.
Kinda blows with a big cam though. My car only runs properly in open loop. Even with a heated 02 sensor, and playing with the o2 constants I still know "better" than the closed loop code does
That at I idle around 11hg haha.
But otherwise, EFI rules!
Your the guy with the silver vette that was in Corvette Enthusiast magazine a few months back right?
Your the guy with the silver vette that was in Corvette Enthusiast magazine a few months back right?
-- Joe
Joe,
Yeah. That's my 84 Z51 running a Xfire manifold. Ran 105mph since then and I think there's still a few more mph in it. RBob's EBL is a must if you're going to run a bigger cam. Mine idles at about 46-47kPa @ 875rpm. You have the same heads I do. Is yours a 383 or a 350? That 306 cam is pretty healthy.
Yeah. That's my 84 Z51 running a Xfire manifold. Ran 105mph since then and I think there's still a few more mph in it. RBob's EBL is a must if you're going to run a bigger cam. Mine idles at about 46-47kPa @ 875rpm. You have the same heads I do. Is yours a 383 or a 350? That 306 cam is pretty healthy.
It's a 350 punched .040 over. I'm using $8D with a miniram. EBL is just for the TBI masks, right?
the 306 cam is great, but not with the 2.59:1 rear end.. Yours an automatic car?
I Trans-planted a ZF-6 into the car 2 years ago replacing the original 4+3. I also replaced the D36 rear with a D44 running 3.45's. And EBL can be modified by RBob to run 8 port injectors.
Thanks guys for all the feedback. Like I said, all of the info I have been going through can get a little intimidating. One more question, these are the specs on the new combo that is going into the car:
383 forged assembly
flat tops
5.7 rods
AFR 195 Eliminators
Comp xfi 288
58mm tb
30# injectors
HSR
N/A but rings will be file fit for nos( to be added more sooner than later) Will this setup be radically different from the stock 5.7 that's in the car now? Can I expect some real tuning issues or will it be "fairly" easy for a newbe tuner? Also kinda of a double post,what software do you guys recommend for a newbe tuner. Once again guys,thanks for all of your input.
It is different enough that you will encounter some tuning issues that will take patience and a few "test-n-tune" sessions before getting it right. That cam / intake / injector combo will probably require some decent fuel (mainly idle and acceleration enrichment) and timing changes. Nothing you can't work through, but don't get discouraged if you don't get it running properly on the first try Pretty soon, you'll be
I started tuning in April of this year and have been using TunerPro RT. It is very user friendly, easy to understand, and the customer service is second to none. Good luck!!
I Trans-planted a ZF-6 into the car 2 years ago replacing the original 4+3. I also replaced the D36 rear with a D44 running 3.45's. And EBL can be modified by RBob to run 8 port injectors.
Interesting. I guess i'll have to look into EBL a bit more then huh? (searching now)
ZF-6 and D44 huh. That musta cost a fortune. I'm not spending no 2k on a Dana44. no way. Not in a million years, they are not worth that haha. The ZF6 is the balls to drive, but i'm also not spending 2k on a transmission + all required parts. I have the 700R4 in the car now. I dunno how I feel about that. I bought a 500.00 torque converter, rebuilt the tranny and installed a transgo shift kit. I'd rather have a stick but. the 4+3 is retarded, and the ZF is too much money.
Can I expect some real tuning issues or will it be "fairly" easy for a newbe tuner? Also kinda of a double post,what software do you guys recommend for a newbe tuner. Once again guys,thanks for all of your input.
If I could tell ya that, I'd be rich from winning so many lotteries.
Some people have a knack for tuning, and for others it's alot of work. I fell into the second group, I had to really struggle intially....
Lots of notes, look for trends, do more the butt dyno tesing, ie data logs, and GTech testing.
Once you do it, you'll realize there's just no substitute. Carb is optimized for a couple of operating parameters. EFI can optimize for all situations. 
Pretty soon, you'll be 
