liquidh8

Hey all, I have a question, or just post em up, on what your VE tables look like in various areas, like idle, low speed/MAP, nd high RPM/MAP.

I have been playing around with mine for the past few days. I am using the EBL, bbc TB w/ 90pph injectors, VAFPR at 22 PSI WOT. I saw my injector offset at 373usec, I never played with this setting before. I was reading some old posts, and I made a new thread, I have a somewhat understaning of it. And by reading the old posts, I saw that people running the bigger injector and higher FP, had the offset from anywhere from 600 to 800usec. So I mover mine to a little over 600usec, and man, my VE tables were way rich, I mean doing a VE learn, the EBL was subtracting like 8 to 10. And My gas mileage is better, as far as the WUD is concerned anyway. Doing the old run the tank empty and refilling, I was getting 14-16 MPG with mostly highway driving. I'll know what I am getting by the beginning of next week, and post it here.

So, Since I changed the offset, me VE table had to be dropped across the board. I'll post a few pics. But you can see my 100 KPA MAP is right around 90. Low speed cruise around 45, and idle about 30. Is this about what everyone else has? Does it matter to the engine where these numbers lie? Lie from 20 to 90, or 30 to 100, or 10 to 80? Also, I have my BPC vs VAC table about 4 higher then that spreadsheet er'body was using. If I drop it down, me VE tables would have to go up. I wonder if I should do that?

Well, here they go, any opinions or input is appreciated.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Well, this is what happens in an extreme case of "VE Bath-tubing" from injector offset values not being great enough. Asynch multipliers can also do this if the ECM/PCM enters Asynch and the multipliers don't match up correctly.

liquidh8

Mine wasn't as bad originaly, but it is better now. I just don't want to mess up the whole thing with the multipliers being to great. They are wavy, have some dips and valleys, but they were worst.

91chevz71

liquidh8

Your low speed looks a pretty smooth, your high speed has an inverted tub., lol. At least I know a few others have finky looking ve tables, compared to a stock style bin anyways.

I have be chasing kr counts for a few weeks now, I have a few exhuast leaks at my headers, I think that may be doing it. Wether I have 22d or 32d of timing at WOT from 2800 on up, I still get knock count, to the tune of 255, where the EBL table maxes out.



I did some mroe logging today, I am waiting on my usb pcmcia card, so I can emulate while driving, that'll get the tune in faster.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Check some of the plugs for signs of detonation. If clean then you know the counts are from something else: contact, bad accessory bearing, knock sensor too tight, etc.

If there are signs of detonation then replace a couple of them with new plugs. Then continue with the tuning while keeping an eye on those plugs.

RBob.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Quote: So I mover mine to a little over 600usec, and man, my VE tables were way rich, I mean doing a VE learn, the EBL was subtracting like 8 to 10

Quote: Well, this is what happens in an extreme case of "VE Bath-tubing"

Quote: At least I know a few others have finky looking ve tables, compared to a stock style bin anyways.

Yea this is Ronny for sure...I smoothed them but Learn would move them again to funky.

When I first set up my EBL.bin I used a BPC that was correctly calc for my engine. Result is that my VE tables quickly went to 100 2800-3200 60-80 MAP with a VE Learn. I questioned why that would be? Mixed responses. 80 lbs at 22 lbs FP. no VAFPR(yet). I ended up increasing my BPC from 107 to 142 to pull my VE under 100. There are no vac leaks and no ext leaks. I am thinking I never changed the injector offset in stock EBL bin. If I did change it last fall(10%>) maybe I did not do so sufficiently? Might this be the answer?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Ronny, I would say that there is something else wrong with the setup. With 80#/hr injectors runing at 22 psi the BPC should be 81 for a 355, and 87 for a 383.

If you need to run 142 for a BPC then something isn't correct. Either the fuel pressure is off (or dropping under load), the injectors are not what they should be, or only one is firing.

Did you ever get a CALPAK installed?

RBob.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

350 cid. Is this calculator wrong?
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/ben_...ctorsizing.xls

we went over this before. I had car checked by my buddy that is a pro engine builder. no vac leaks at manifold and same on ext. no leak at headers to head(felpro). ext is all welded and the ext to collector(NB02 heated and new) was found to be fine. both inj firing and they are newer. TPI pump and it too is realitively new. replaced fuel filter. WB shows WOT 12.5-12.7/1 at 20 lbs FP at 5800 rpms. DC in log is like 85% at WOT. Drivability is pretty good. It is getting adequate fuel and I can over fuel and did this summer . That is why I backed off on FP to 20 lbs. I may even swap in the 10-20 lbs spring and drop to 18 lbs. I think I did have it set to 92 BPC intially but was forced to increase it as I had no other choice. That did solve issue of tables 100. But I suspect some thing else is going on as you say.

Do all engines use the same formulary to create a BPC? IOW if the VE is very efficient could that explain the need to fudge BPC? I dont think I have any restrictions in intake nor ext other than possibly an air cleaner that is restrictive(2.00 inch X 14).

I am open to suggestions as to what to do.

We can reapproach this in spring as car is in barn till 4/1.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The calculator looks OK to me. They are within a few BPC of each other. I thought you are using a BPC of 142? That is a far distance from the calculated 80 - 82 that it should be running at. With the FP at 20 psi the BPC should be within the range of 84 - 86.

CALPAK/NETRES?

RBob.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Yes I am running currently 140+ BPW to get the VE table 2 under 100 in some areas(high load?).. also I checked the part # of inj's and they are 80 lbs.

Now with the 7747 I was able to use a BPC around 92 successfully. The issue developed when I plugged in the EBL-ECU and used VE Learn.

My reason posting was to ask if myfunky sloped VE tables which I smoothened often are a result of the injector offset being too little in my .bin?

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Not sure if a calpack present? I never witnessed an event where it was necessary to limp. I recall you asking this last summer. come to think of it I may have had a malf code for calpack that I unchecked to remove. maybe i never added one. is that an issue? my old 7747 had a V6 calpack so car would not run well with it in place when the zif failed(often). do I look Ebay or GM dealer?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Post up your VE table graphs. Can hold Ctrl & mouse to rotate/flip them. So far I've thought the tables looked decent (with the exception of the 'example' table).

One item to watch for is that the way TP graphs. It doesn't show from 0 - 100 % VE. The graph 'height' is shown from the min table VE and the max table VE. This can skew the perspective. To see this grabbing opposite corners of the graph and pull one to 0% and the other to 100%. Just don't save your VE tables once you have done this (hit cancel).


Not having a CALPAK installed changes the injector firing. If you don't have a CALPAK let me know I'll send one out.

RBob.

liquidh8

Rbob, see no signs of detonation. But my exhuast leak is getting worst, and the knock counts seem to be doing the same, can't really nail down a trend though. I am ordering some percy's header and collector gaskets, to get rid of the leak. I have been retarding the timing, I now have 29d of WOT timing by 3600 RPM. Still getting the knock counts. The funny thing is is is doesn't do it all the time. For example, I can stall it up from a dead stop, stand on it and rev the p@#s out of it, and no knock counts. I could go from a 40 mph roll, stand on it and get knock counts from 3200 - 4800 PRM, then nothing from 5k up. I want to fix the exhuast leak and take it from there.

I'll be posting my results next week when I get the leak taken car of.

I have to run through this tank of gas to get my new MPG calcs, it's looking good though.


Ronny, I have my BPC vs VAC table fudged to keep the high speed VE out of the 100 range, I am around 92 now. I checked and rechecked my WOT FP and it is at 22-23. This is using the autometer electrical, and a snap-on mechanical.

What started me on this trend was the fact that I seemed to be getting crappy mileage, compared to fast355 and others. So I've been reading posts on fueling and like with the big injectors and FP, so II changed the inj offset and hear I am. My VE tables smoothed out a bit too after changing it.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I was getting a CRAZY number of knock counts due to a badly worn out transmission mount.

liquidh8

that's something to look into, my tranny shifts SUPER HARD, so it does break mounts from time to time.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

RBob I do not have a calpack to best of my knowledge. Are you going to send me a calpack chip or a .bin file? I cannot burn a chip as I use Prominator. Manual trans if it makes a difference.

If you would sent the calpack itself my address is:

Ron . . .

Thanks!

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Ronny, I'll send a calpak out. It is the little 16 pin chip, no need to burn anything.

RBob.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Thanks again.

any orientation tips?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

White dot on netres/chip faces outside of ECM.

RBob.

Mathias

Hi guys. My first post..

Im running some VE Learns and i end up getting a dip in the table at 80 KPa 1300 rpm. What can i do about it as it doesnt seem to get any better? Stock 350 running a 1" TBI spacer (Trans-Dapt Swirl Torque) and a 1/4" injector spacer, if that could have anything to do with it? Any ideas..?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The dip in the orange/green high map area is most likely from too much AE. If the injectors are larger or the fuel pressure is higher then stock, reduce the AE MAP & TPS% PW tables by the injector size ratio.

For the peaks down in the blue low map & rpm area. This is because the engine typically doesn't run in that area (no learning gets done). Best bet is to level out that area to match the learned in idle area. It makes the VE tbale look better along with helping the engine out if it does dip into that area.

RBob.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Is that combo in the Van pictured?

Mathias

RBob: Everything is stock, but i will try with smoothing the table by hand and take it for a spin and see if it changes back.

Fast355: Yes, its in the Van. I have the 350/700R4 and a 2.73 rear.

I really would like to get low end power, as my normal cruising rpm is between 1300-1400 rpm in the highway.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

So a VE Learn can pick up a AE event of sufficient duration(time) to effect a BLM learn? I would expect a INT event to occur but a BLM change?

What is the threshold in msec for BLM update?

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Yikes, I thought my 305/700r4/3.08 gear combo was bad with a cruise rpm of 1,700 rpm @ 70 mph.

Mathias

I think we share that problem, i get 1400 rpm at 60 mph..

RBob

iTrader: (1)

IIRC the stock BLM update delay is 450 msec, or a little under a half second. With enough AE it will drive the INT down quite rapidly. Which then pulls the BLM down.

You can use the INT to help tune AE events. Just observe in which direction it goes and how far after AE occurs. Then adjust the AE accordingly.

RBob.

Mathias

Now i have done 3 VE Learns with a smoothing factor of 8. All 3 of them were 20+ miles with both city and highway, and i will do some more before i get the EGR back.

Before and after the VE Learns:

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Must say that looks much better then before. Comparing the original (with the dip) and the 3-learns table, it appears that the dip was only increased a little. While the surrounding area was lowered. Does it also look that way to you.

RBob.

Mathias

Will get the EGR back in now and do some more learns. By the way, i filled the tank up for the first time after installing the EBL and it seems like the mileage is getting better..

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Yep, not surprising that the mileage is better. And if highway mode isn't enabled yet that too will improve the mileage.

For the EGR, once installed and enabled do some VE Learns. HOWEVER, do not use the BIN. Just use the corrections found on the VE display to adjust the EGR BPC multiplier table (EGR - BPC Multiplier vs VAC).

RBob.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

RBob. I thought you one stated that VE Learn will identify and disregard a AE/PE event as far as as a correction goes?

Mathias

Will do.
For once im looking forward to fill it up again..

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Only to a point. If the AE is way too little or way too much it can affect the VE learn. The reason is that the affects of the AE event last long enough to change the BLM several points. At the same time this AE would need to be a lot more or less then what would typically be required.

RBob.

Mathias

OK, now im lost. Have done some VE Learns, first without EGR and then with the EGR enabled. When im looking at the Low Speed VE Table in TunerPro the big dip is back again but it looks a bit better when i have got the EGR working.
Another thing is how shall i do with the EGR - BPC Multiplier vs VAC table? Some numbers are higher in the VE Table after i enabled the EGR, and some are lower.. I dont have a clue what to change to in the table. Any hints..?
Should i do some more VE Learns?

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Quote: For the EGR, once installed and enabled do some VE Learns. HOWEVER, do not use the BIN. Just use the corrections found on the VE display to adjust the EGR BPC multiplier table (EGR - BPC Multiplier vs VAC).

Maybe that table will offset the corrections being done that you are seeing show up in Learn ? Assuming EGR is causing the corrections?

Mathias

I had that dip in my first VE Learns and after i had manually smoothed them in TunerPro i did 3 more VE Learns and it looked good after. But now they are back again and after i enabled EGR it took the worst rough edges off in the VE Table, but not much.. Maybe im missing something, but i cant figure out what to do with the EGR-BPC Multiplier vs VAC settings.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Does EGR enlean the mixture? If so the Learn shows that and add fuel there in a .bin it creates? If so would you not reduce the multipler value at that VAC where the event occurs tp negate its(EGR) effect? Just a guess.

Mathias

At the worst point, 1200 rpm 80 Map it dropped from 79.22 to 72.55 with EGR enabled. Does that mean its adding or removing fuel? If i look at the Difference in Compare Mode it tells me 6.67 in the EGR bin.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Looks like the Learn is removing fuel 79 to 72.

I would like to know how often a EGR occurs. I would also like to know if it can be disabled during VE Learn or should be. I would think so? If it is an event that is occasional it would seem the BLMs would accomodate it and maintain stoich. Can you monitor BLM during the EGR event and see which way the BLM moves?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

When the EGR is activated the exhaust gases displace intake air. With this the mix goes richer. The BLM drops in response. The EGR - BPC multiplier vs VAC table compensates for this by reducing the BPC value. A smaller BPC has a smaller PW at the same RPM & MAP point in the VE table.

When at 80 KPa MAP and the VE Learn is pulling fuel, the BPC multiplier vs VAC value needs to be reduced. At key-on, engine-off get the MAP value, this is barometric. Subtract the 80 KPa MAP from it and that is the vacuum. Reduce the value in the EGR - BPC multiplier vs VAC table at that vacuum.

Go through the MAP columns and change the EGR - BPC multiplier table to suit. It will never be perfect, but you should be able to get it close enough that the INT & BLM takes care of it and the driveability is fine.

RBob.

Mathias

Thanks RBob, now i got it, sometimes it can be hard to get all info in English.. I came to think about one thing that was different from the better looking VE Table i had before. At those 3 VE Learns i didnt use the OD, i only drove it in D just to get a higher rpm in the learn. When i got the dip back i cruised with OD, could that have anything to do with the dip coming back?

Edit: I have done a few VE Learns in D today and the VE Table looks good again.. both with and without EGR.

Mathias

At first you shall have the EGR, CCP and HiWy off and do some VE Learns, then enable the EGR and do some more Learns. Compare the VE Tables to see what differences there are and adjust the BPC multiplier vs VAC to get as close you can to what the values was before EGR.
That is if i understood it correct..

When you get it close enable CCP and HiWy and youīre done.

At my first Learn after the EGR was enabled the BLMīs were up to 136 in the beginning and my EGR is active all the time, except when idling or letting off the throttle.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Don't worry about what your VE table looks like too much, if you are getting the desired results from your engine. VE is not the only factor you have working on the TBI's WET manifold. This is what my GM Crate L05 350 with an Edelbrock performer RPM intake, 1.6:1 rockers, and Tri-Y headers liked on the low-speed table. The second table is the result of adding ported Vortec heads and a 454 TBI on top of an Edelbrock Performer RPM Vortec intake.

I have a bin where I transposed a $0D .bin for a 1995 TBI 350/4l60E fullsize van over for EBL use. It ran VERY well on my at the time, stock with bolt-ons 350 TBI.

Mathias

I will not bother with my VE Tables any more, i dont think they will improve much, see picture. As long as my Van is running better and more fuel efficient i am happy, i wont race it . Im going to get the EGR settings done and then see what difference in fuel consumption i get, as i seem to notice a increase in mileage already, after that i will try with E85.

Fast 355: Do you have any idea of why my VE Table gets a big dip when i use OD in a learn? I dont see the AE light on the WUD as i dont accelerate so hard in OD, mostly cruising. Can it be my 2.73 rear that makes it hard for the engine and too low rpmīs? Maybe i shouldnt use the OD..?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

There is a TCC locked SA retard table. It may be that the TCC is locking up in OD which can cause the SA to be reduced. Depends upon whether the TCC locked SA table was changed or not. That may be what is causing the slight dip.

The other thing you can do is to correct the way the VE tables 'looks.' Note that when graphed in TP the scale is expanded to cover just the highest and lowest VE value in the table.

RBob.

Mathias

You might be right on that, lockup SA retard is 4.22 degrees when TCC is engaged in that area.. But wouldnt the same thing happen when i use D as it also locks?
I will use the VE Table as it is for now and start to get the BPC multiplier vs VAC settings better, engage the Lean Cruise and take it for a longer trip to see if i get a better mileage then before the EBL.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

You might be running into a scenario where your MAP is changing greatly with a very small change in throttle, and this is activating your MAP AE alot and skewing your numbers.

It will still pull the same amount of timing, but in OD your engine rpm will be lower and the MAP will be higher, this will retard the timing more than D will. But then again, you will need to be careful on how much timing you run, that van is heavy and not well geared, especially in OD. With the low HP output of the L05, I would not be suprised to see a set of 3.42 or 3.73 gears give you a nice fuel mileage improvement on the highway. If you keep the stock 2.73 gears, a 305 camshaft would be a nice addition as it will drop your TQ curve back into a more useable range. No sense to have peak torque at 2,800 rpm, if you are going to cruise at 1,600-1,800 if you know what I mean.

Mathias

I guess your right..
I dont put it in OD until i get over 50 mph, so its only on the highway.
If my metric conversion isnt totally off i got something like 18-18.5 miles/gallon average on the highway before the EBL, so i dont know how much more mileage i could get out of it.
Perhaps i should try driving a bit faster so i get the rpm higher.. I usually drive 55-60 so maybe 65-70 instead might be better.

I will keep the 305 camshaft idea in my mind..